CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread

[michigancat]

This rough ridin' lady.

https://twitter.com/gregggonsalves/status/1295499519988310018

she couldn't be more right. we are rough ridin' crybabies over wearing masks and not being able to go to bars, I can't imagine what a reaction to a REAL lockdown would be like.

What constitutes a "real lockdown"?

well, she described what Italy did in the video and that's what I was referring to. I don't think we need to get into semantics of what constitutes a "real lockdown" but it's clear that what Italy did would not work here.

[sonofdaxjones]

cRusty, what does a cataclysmic crash in the World Economy look like?

Can you fight disease and hunger when no one has any money?

The world doesn't care if Italy shuts down, because Italy is a piss ant economic power that's about to get (yet another) bailout from the EU.

[chum1]

What constitutes a "piss ant economic power"?

[sonofdaxjones]

What constitutes a "piss ant economic power"?

Italy

[michigancat]

What constitutes a "piss ant economic power"?

the third largest EU economy

[star seed 7]

Dax really thinks he's struck gold with the tin cup thing doesn't he? Lol

[sonofdaxjones]

Italy produces 1/10th the GDP of the United States.

[Dugout DickStone]

Dax really thinks he's struck gold with the tin cup thing doesn't he? Lol

yeah goincel must have shoved that out sometime late last week

[sonofdaxjones]

Saw it on the Reddit ProgFascist Rage page, difficult to read through 46.7 million posts

[Phil Titola]

Does Dax really think our shotgun shutdown approach saved our economy?  Does he think how the US shutdown avoided a "cataclysmic crash in the World Economy"?

[sonofdaxjones]

Does Dax really think our shotgun shutdown approach saved our economy?  Does he think how the US shutdown avoided a "cataclysmic crash in the World Economy"?

Phil, I'm not the 24/7/365 CoronaBro Drama Boy like you are.  I didn't say the economy wasn't hurt.'

[Dugout DickStone]

Saw it on the Reddit ProgFascist Rage page, difficult to read through 46.7 million posts

Thanks for the updates from that page!  Must have been very time consuming

[kim carnes]

What constitutes a "piss ant economic power"?

the third largest EU economy

Their per capita gdp is worse than West Virginia and barely half of the USA per capita.

[DQ12]

This rough ridin' lady.

https://twitter.com/gregggonsalves/status/1295499519988310018

she couldn't be more right. we are rough ridin' crybabies over wearing masks and not being able to go to bars, I can't imagine what a reaction to a REAL lockdown would be like.

What constitutes a "real lockdown"?

well, she described what Italy did in the video and that's what I was referring to. I don't think we need to get into semantics of what constitutes a "real lockdown" but it's clear that what Italy did would not work here.

I mean, a statement like "we should've locked down like Italy" is kind of begging for a semantics driven conversation -- i.e. "what did Italy do that the US didn't with the respective lockdowns?" 

I don't know what Birx referencing about the grocery store certificates -- I haven't seen that anywhere else.  Per wiki (feel free to link somewhere else contradicting if you want -- i'd be interested to see it), here's what Italy did:

- ban of non-essential travel
- limitation of free movement, except in cases of necessity
- ban of public events
- closure of commercial and retail businesses, except essential goods sellers and banks
- suspension of teaching in schools and universities
- under-surveillance quarantine of infected persons
- shutdown of all non-essential businesses and industries (23 March–3 May)

Other than the two bolded portions, that sounds an awful lot like what most of America did (or at least what KC did).  Maybe the lockdowns weren't consistent enough or were too late, but America shut down pretty hard.  Of course some people here were pissed about the lockdowns, but so were some people in Italy.

[Phil Titola]

Not to put words in her mouth but could she have been talking about how regimented the population was vs. our population thinking their freedom to do what they want supersedes any public health problem?

[michigancat]

There was also no ban on non-essential travel in the US and the two bolded are like, really big deals!. And I don't think the closure of commercial and retail was nationwide but a state-by-state or even city-by-city basis. I work with people in Italy that completely shut down operations, but no one in similar businesses in the US did, like at all. It was super easy to be deemed "essential" here.

It may be covered in the ban on non-essential travel but they also banned interregional travel, which IMO is also a pretty big deal.

I think Birx got her details wrong about the certificates but I did find this:

Going out of one’s residence (house, apartment, etc.) is only allowed for provable urgent needs (essential work, buying food, or going to pharmacies) which may be verified by the police in case of checks;

A self-declaration must be kept in your pocket certifying the urgent reason;

And here are the details on interregional travel (crazy they let bars and restaurants stay open! How does that add up!?!)

The measures include:

    A ban on travel within all areas of Italy, except for essential work- or health-related reasons.  People are permitted to return to their normal place of residence if outside these areas.
    Individuals with symptoms are required to self-isolate and to limit social contact.
    Individuals who have tested positive for COVID-19 are quarantined and forbidden to leave their homes.
    All sporting events have been suspended,
    Schools and universities remain closed until 3 April.
    Bars and restaurants may only open between 6:00am and 6:00pm (06:00 to 18:00), with table service only where their facilities allow them to maintain a distance of 1 meter between tables.
    All public events, including cinemas, theatres, and concerts are suspended.
    Severe fines and possible criminal proceedings are envisaged for infringing the above regulations.

https://home.kpmg/xx/en/home/insights/2020/03/flash-alert-2020-053.html

we also didn't require self isolation for people with symptoms or quarantine for people who tested positive. I think those are all key items that would have American's yelling "freedom" and just not working at all.

[mocat]

I mean, a statement like "we should've locked down like Italy" is kind of begging for a semantics driven conversation -- i.e. "what did Italy do that the US didn't with the respective lockdowns?" 

I don't know what Birx referencing about the grocery store certificates -- I haven't seen that anywhere else.  Per wiki (feel free to link somewhere else contradicting if you want -- i'd be interested to see it), here's what Italy did:

- ban of non-essential travel
- limitation of free movement, except in cases of necessity
- ban of public events
- closure of commercial and retail businesses, except essential goods sellers and banks
- suspension of teaching in schools and universities
- under-surveillance quarantine of infected persons
- shutdown of all non-essential businesses and industries (23 March–3 May)

Other than the two bolded portions, that sounds an awful lot like what most of America did (or at least what KC did).  Maybe the lockdowns weren't consistent enough or were too late, but America shut down pretty hard.  Of course some people here were pissed about the lockdowns, but so were some people in Italy.

uhh the two bolded portions are kind of major differences

[DQ12]

I mean, a statement like "we should've locked down like Italy" is kind of begging for a semantics driven conversation -- i.e. "what did Italy do that the US didn't with the respective lockdowns?" 

I don't know what Birx referencing about the grocery store certificates -- I haven't seen that anywhere else.  Per wiki (feel free to link somewhere else contradicting if you want -- i'd be interested to see it), here's what Italy did:

- ban of non-essential travel
- limitation of free movement, except in cases of necessity
- ban of public events
- closure of commercial and retail businesses, except essential goods sellers and banks
- suspension of teaching in schools and universities
- under-surveillance quarantine of infected persons
- shutdown of all non-essential businesses and industries (23 March–3 May)

Other than the two bolded portions, that sounds an awful lot like what most of America did (or at least what KC did).  Maybe the lockdowns weren't consistent enough or were too late, but America shut down pretty hard.  Of course some people here were pissed about the lockdowns, but so were some people in Italy.

uhh the two bolded portions are kind of major differences

I'll respond to Rusty's post on the same point as well:

I don't think the two bolded parts would have sent the US Population over the edge in terms of "muh freedoms" like Rusty suggested.  We already essentially have bans on interregional travel (e.g. my Hawaiian honeymoon is still very much up in the air).  Granted, we didn't have specific "containment zones" complete with police barracades like Italy did -- but I was never really aware of some great push to do that, on this board or anywhere else.

With respect to forced isolation of the infected, I do think that would've been helpful, but I don't think people would have thrown a total fit if the US implemented some form of that.  I think the lion's share of people's US gripes were business/school shutdowns (I can't work/I'm bored/my kids are bored), and I think that would've remained the lion's share of people's US gripes even if the US had stricter bans on interregional travel and isolation.

So in sum, it sounds like Italy (1) had stricter bans on interregional travel; (2) had stricter bans on movement outside the house; (3) isolated the infected.

I'm not sure any of those would have caused more gnashing of teeth than what we got.  Would people have been pissed?  Sure, but people in Italy were pissed too.  The notion that "we couldn't have done what Italy did" doesn't hold much water with me. 

[michigancat]

I mean, a statement like "we should've locked down like Italy" is kind of begging for a semantics driven conversation -- i.e. "what did Italy do that the US didn't with the respective lockdowns?" 

I don't know what Birx referencing about the grocery store certificates -- I haven't seen that anywhere else.  Per wiki (feel free to link somewhere else contradicting if you want -- i'd be interested to see it), here's what Italy did:

- ban of non-essential travel
- limitation of free movement, except in cases of necessity
- ban of public events
- closure of commercial and retail businesses, except essential goods sellers and banks
- suspension of teaching in schools and universities
- under-surveillance quarantine of infected persons
- shutdown of all non-essential businesses and industries (23 March–3 May)

Other than the two bolded portions, that sounds an awful lot like what most of America did (or at least what KC did).  Maybe the lockdowns weren't consistent enough or were too late, but America shut down pretty hard.  Of course some people here were pissed about the lockdowns, but so were some people in Italy.

uhh the two bolded portions are kind of major differences

I'll respond to Rusty's post on the same point as well:

I don't think the two bolded parts would have sent the US Population over the edge in terms of "muh freedoms" like Rusty suggested.  We already essentially have bans on interregional travel (my Hawaiian honeymoon is still very much up in the air).  Granted, we didn't have specific "containment zones" complete with police barracades like Italy did -- but I was never really aware of some great push to do that, on this board or anywhere else.

You can honeymoon anywhere in California with no restrictions at all. I'm guessing everywhere but Hawaii and Alaska you could get away with unrestricted travel. You can still go to Hawaii, you just might need to stay in a hotel for a couple weeks () which isn't comparable to Italy AT ALL. And it may have been discussed here, but TX set up state border checkpoints for symptomatic folks. It was a thing discussed on some level but probably not enough.

As for forced isolation of positives and symptomatic, people would have thrown a fit but it doesn't really matter because our testing is so worthless.

Also keep in mind that Birx didn't say "we should have done what Italy did", she's saying something to the effect of "I would have liked to have done what Italy did, but it wouldn't have rough ridin' worked". Which IMO is reasonable and accurate.

[DQ12]

Also keep in mind that Birx didn't say "we should have done what Italy did", she's saying something to the effect of "I would have liked to have done what Italy did, but it wouldn't have rough ridin' worked". Which IMO is reasonable and accurate.

That's where Birx and I disagree.  I don't think there's anything particularly distinct about America relative to italy (aside from geographic and population size) that would make Italy's successful response unsuccessful in US of A.

[Kat Kid]

This rough ridin' lady.

https://twitter.com/gregggonsalves/status/1295499519988310018

she couldn't be more right. we are rough ridin' crybabies over wearing masks and not being able to go to bars, I can't imagine what a reaction to a REAL lockdown would be like.

What constitutes a "real lockdown"?

well, she described what Italy did in the video and that's what I was referring to. I don't think we need to get into semantics of what constitutes a "real lockdown" but it's clear that what Italy did would not work here.

I mean, a statement like "we should've locked down like Italy" is kind of begging for a semantics driven conversation -- i.e. "what did Italy do that the US didn't with the respective lockdowns?" 

I don't know what Birx referencing about the grocery store certificates -- I haven't seen that anywhere else.  Per wiki (feel free to link somewhere else contradicting if you want -- i'd be interested to see it), here's what Italy did:

- ban of non-essential travel
- limitation of free movement, except in cases of necessity
- ban of public events
- closure of commercial and retail businesses, except essential goods sellers and banks
- suspension of teaching in schools and universities
- under-surveillance quarantine of infected persons
- shutdown of all non-essential businesses and industries (23 March–3 May)

Other than the two bolded portions, that sounds an awful lot like what most of America did (or at least what KC did).  Maybe the lockdowns weren't consistent enough or were too late, but America shut down pretty hard.  Of course some people here were pissed about the lockdowns, but so were some people in Italy.

I listened to probably about 2 hours of a guy talking about his experience of the lockdown in n. Italy and they had military checkpoints where people were stopped and questioned about their whereabouts, so yeah they lockdowned way harder.

and if you think that would not have launched one million mouth-breathing vertical cam videos recorded from cars with people freaking out then you are crazy.

[kim carnes]

DQ get out of here trying to compare our lockdown to italy, no rational/informed person could come to that conclusion. 

[DQ12]

DQ get out of here trying to compare our lockdown to italy, no rational/informed person could come to that conclusion.

But we did do a lot of what Italy did, aside from isolating the infected and stricter bans on outside the house travel (which I don't think would've been some impossible to accomplish measure) and coming down way harder on interregional travel (which I don't think anyone really pushed to do anyway).

The idea that Italy's successful measures never stood a chance in the US seems to counter what people like Rusty were pushing for pretty strongly back in April.

[star seed 7]

I think you're really undervalueing how broad the essential business exemptions in the US were

[DQ12]

I think you're really undervalueing how broad the essential business exemptions in the US were

I know they didn't tend (ha!) to include bars, like Italy's apparently did.

Again, my point isn't that the US's lockdowns were identical to Italy.  I'm saying that the relative differences either (1) weren't really advocated for in the US; or (2) could have been accomplished without much additional opposition than existed anyway.