CoronaBro Meltdown/SARS-Covid-19 Spitballing Thread

[treysolid]

Dr. @treysolid  Since you claim to be the most knowledgable about all of this, true or false?

COVID-19 attacks a blood cell's ability to carry oxygen, similar effect to Carbon Monoxide or Malaria. As such, ventilator can't fix that.

Hydroxychloroquine blocks the virus from being able to disrupt the FE2+ and FE3+ oxygen bonding cycle.

I'll hang up and listen off air.

I presume that what you're referring to is this ChemRxiv paper here:

https://chemrxiv.org/articles/COVID-19_Disease_ORF8_and_Surface_Glycoprotein_Inhibit_Heme_Metabolism_by_Binding_to_Porphyrin/11938173

The first thing I noticed about that paper is that the main author is a member of the computer science and engineering department at their school, and indeed, there was no "wet work" done for this paper. Instead, they did a bunch of in silico docking models to see how the viral proteins might bind to porphyrins like heme. So...this all took place in a computer model, NOT in real life.

Second scroll all the way down and look at the version notes: (my comments in bold)

1. Viral protein infects hemoglobin by the immune hemolysis of red blood cells (what this means is that their explanation for how the viral proteins can interact with hemoglobin is that the red blood cell MUST BREAK OPEN FIRST. We know that covid-19 gains entry to cells by binding to the ACE2 receptor, but I couldn't find any evidence that ACE2 is expressed on the surface of RBCs at any significant level, link below to human protein atlas. So I'm gonna go ahead and call bullshit, because if a significant portion of your RBCs are lysing, you've got WAY bigger problems than a viral infection)
2 This article is for academic discussion only, without experimental prove. we hope that qualified laboratories can do experimental verification (There you go, no experimental proof)
3.  Since the ability of chloroquine to inhibit structural proteins is not particularly obvious, the therapeutic effect on different people may be different. Due to the side effects and allergic reactions of drugs such as chloroquine, please consult a qualified doctor for treatment details, and do not take the medicine yourself.

https://www.proteinatlas.org/ENSG00000130234-ACE2/blood

The respiratory distress produced by the coronavirus isn't caused by disruption of hemoglobins ability to carry oxygen, it's caused because of the inflammatory immune response to the tissues affected by the disease (primarily the lungs, when oxygen is loaded into RBCs in the first place) and there might also be some effects due to pathway misregulation around ACE2, which is involved in vasodilation (the ability of blood vessels to dilate and move blood to tissues that need to be oxygenated).

Tl:dr the premise for this paper is mumped

Thanks, treysolid....  I'm not trying to argue with you.  I'm really just trying to understand how more people can be spared their lives that contract this crap.

Even if anecdotal, it seems that there is A LOT of info coming out from docs on the frontlines saying that in many cases ventilators (when used) were causing more harm than good and that many were finding positive results with hydrocloroquine and zinc treatments. 

If the side effect of NOT trying those medications is death, then if I were faced with the choice of waiting for "proper studies and proper trials", I'd happily be a volunteer.

Listen, I get it. We should be trying treatments with promising in vitro effects, but it's absolutely imperative that we go about it the right way. What we don't need is the president getting involved in decisions that only the medical community should be making - that's how you end up with people drinking pool cleaner.

[michigancat]

I don't know if people remember my wife kinda thought our daughter and a bunch of kids on her bus maybe got it in February?

https://twitter.com/SFGate/status/1247932741116542978?s=19

lol this was fake news

So what’s really behind this theory? It might be worth considering the source. KSBW’s piece begins by mentioning Stanford Medicine’s research, then quotes Victor Davis Hanson, a Stanford-affiliated source; the piece reads as if Hanson is one of these aforementioned Stanford Medicine researchers. But Hanson is a military historian, not a doctor or scientist; he is affiliated with Stanford’s Hoover Institution, a conservative think tank.* (I reached out to Hanson for comment, but he has not responded; we will update this article if he does.) The piece makes no effort to clarify what the Hoover Institution is, and it delves into Hanson’s “theory” as a prelude to a brief explanation of Stanford Medicine’s study. Hanson’s recent work, published in National Review, suggests he is eager to reopen the American economy. It would be quite convenient, then, to claim that the virus has already torn through the U.S. and granted us immunity. (In that article, Hanson also claims that “much of the virus modeling is nearly worthless” and refers to it as “science,” in scare quotes.)

Hanson also (incorrectly) suggests that the virus’s spread in California came from “Chinese nationals” visiting California. Looking more closely at his recent work reveals a potential political motive for that claim; in a recent op-ed for Fox News, he argues that we already have too many Chinese nationals visiting, studying, or collaborating in the U.S., and that post-coronavirus America should “wake up” and make changes.

https://slate.com/technology/2020/04/coronavirus-circulating-california-2019-bunk.html

This week, Monterey TV station KSBW, which is owned by the Hearst Corp., which also owns The Chronicle, interviewed Hanson. That’s when the theory about “herd immunity” spread locally to Bay Area stations and online news sources — including SFGate, also owned by Hearst, which published KSBW’s story (SFGate’s editorial director, Grant Marek, removed the article after questions about its accuracy came to light.)

https://www.sfchronicle.com/health/article/Unlikely-that-California-has-herd-immunity-15193666.php

[DaBigTrain]

[sys]

lol this was fake news

that article is pretty lol.

[michigancat]

https://twitter.com/tomgara/status/1249107324322623489

[Catchacold]

 

[Trim]

I don't know what the goal of any of this is anymore.

[LickNeckey]

So I have like a million questions about what is happening with these seized shipments, FEMA's resource allocation, and the "middlemen" that are benefitting.

[LickNeckey]

So if I have this straight...

Trump tells States to acquire there own PPE and resources.

The Federal government then turns around and bids up the price of the those same resources.

States get creative in sourcing goods and pay premium prices to secure contracts.

Goods being shipped to States are then seized by the FBI and redirected to FEMA.

FEMA then hands these goods over to middlemen who turn around and sell them again at another markup?

[sys]

what a strange country.

https://twitter.com/snowmanomics/status/1249184576397815809

[steve dave]

https://twitter.com/jonshorman/status/1249156976283717632

[michigancat]

So if I have this straight...

Trump tells States to acquire there own PPE and resources.

The Federal government then turns around and bids up the price of the those same resources.

States get creative in sourcing goods and pay premium prices to secure contracts.

Goods being shipped to States are then seized by the FBI and redirected to FEMA.

FEMA then hands these goods over to middlemen who turn around and sell them again at another markup?

That's pretty accurate, but sometimes the states (and hospitals) have existing orders to the middle men that are air bridged by FEMA and given to the same middle men who had the original order, but sent somewhere else. Also as I understand it the middle men only sell the seized equipment to existing suppliers, so I'm not sure what happens to people who typically buy from someone else. I'm assuming most hospitals have some purchasing agreement with at least one of the five companies participating in air bridge, but I'm not sure

[catastrophe]

So like first civil war mostly over right to own slaves. Second civil war over right to purchase PPE.

[michigancat]

what a strange country.

https://twitter.com/snowmanomics/status/1249184576397815809

I read this and I don't think we're even organized enough for someone to take the fall because no one seems to be in charge. I guess maybe FEMA? But I see the argument that they aren't well equipped for it.

[Kat Kid]

Well the choke point is the feds grabbing stuff and throwing it back on the open market. That is a decision that was made by the Trump admin.

As for what should’ve happened, the federal government should’ve been the sole bidder and then set up an internal mechanism (I would honestly be ok with a bidding/market process to some extent) then used the money to go back on the open market as a big bidder.

[michigancat]

Started looking into who runs the federal stockpile and thought this was interesting

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2020/04/10/rare-look-stockpile-shows-which-states-got-supplies-amid-covid/5126900002/

Apparently the stockpile used to be run by the CDC and now it's run by the "HHS Office of the Assistant Secretary for Preparedness and Response"

This guy runs it and seems like he should know what he's doing:

https://www.phe.gov/newsroom/bio/Pages/kadlec.aspx

So I looked him up in the news and yeah he seems pretty competent! So I guess we just blame Trump

With that in mind, the task force had gathered for a tabletop exercise — a real-time version of a full-scale war gaming of a flu pandemic the administration had run the previous year. That earlier exercise, also conducted by Mr. Kadlec and called “Crimson Contagion,” predicted 110 million infections, 7.7 million hospitalizations and 586,000 deaths following a hypothetical outbreak that started in China.

Facing the likelihood of a real pandemic, the group needed to decide when to abandon “containment” — the effort to keep the virus outside the U.S. and to isolate anyone who gets infected — and embrace “mitigation” to thwart the spread of the virus inside the country until a vaccine becomes available.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/11/us/politics/coronavirus-trump-response.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage

[michigancat]

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/04/hhs-clarifies-us-has-about-1percent-of-face-masks-needed-for-full-blown-pandemic.html

Look at that date and keep in mind there was not a single shipment of masks to US ports in March.

[treysolid]

but what is the federal government's rationale for seizing shipments of supplies headed to the states? I mean, it has to be just to enrich whoever runs these middleman companies that end up with those supplies, right? Are they compensating the states for what they seize? I just don't understand how you can just steal those supplies from the states that have purchased them...

[michigancat]

but what is the federal government's rationale for seizing shipments of supplies headed to the states? I mean, it has to be just to enrich whoever runs these middleman companies that end up with those supplies, right? Are they compensating the states for what they seize? I just don't understand how you can just steal those supplies from the states that have purchased them...

I think the FEMA seizures lead to "cancelled" orders, I don't know if they were actually paid for. At least with "Air Bridge" equipment. In theory, those cancelled orders are redistributed to areas with greater need.

These stories so far really don't go into as much detail as I'd like, I'm not sure if FEMA is "seizing" equipment that wasn't already slated for distribution to the five companies participating in the air bridge.

[michigancat]

And I definitely see the logic behind maintaining private distribution channels already in place. They could more than likely get what is needed to hospitals more efficiently than anyone. The problem is the government only really going halfway with their purchasing and allocation, plus what appears to be a complete lack of transparency or coherent strategy

[treysolid]

And I definitely see the logic behind maintaining private distribution channels already in place. They could more than likely get what is needed to hospitals more efficiently than anyone. The problem is the government only really going halfway with their purchasing and allocation, plus what appears to be a complete lack of transparency or coherent strategy

That's what I don't understand. Trump already told states that they are on their own, that they need to procure their own supplies. So either stay out of it, or coordinate a better-organized, more cohesive national response. You can't have it both ways.

[sonofdaxjones]

Some people don’t get the power that FEMA has and those wanting the Feds to have more power are categorically insane.

Also straight up LOL at the notion that Trump is personally orchestrating this.  If you think that you’re a world class idiot. 

This is the Federal government, the entity that some you useful idiots want to be fully beholden to . . .

[DaBigTrain]

Dax translation: Trump is the best president ever and has handled this perfectly.

[sonofdaxjones]

Dax translation: Trump is the best president ever and has handled this perfectly.

The fact useful idiots like you are suddenly demanding perfection from the federal government is indicative of both how stupid and partisan that you are.

Your guy couldn’t handle a known virus that jumped to humans in the United States until thousands had died, hundreds of thousands had been hospitalized and tens of millions infected.  But you didn’t give a eff.

[michigancat]

Some people don’t get the power that FEMA has and those wanting the Feds to have more power are categorically insane.

Also straight up LOL at the notion that Trump is personally orchestrating this.  If you think that you’re a world class idiot. 

This is the Federal government, the entity that some you useful idiots want to be fully beholden to . . .

You're correct in that I don't understand what FEMA is doing. IMO the best things the federal government can offer is cash and the capability to assess states/regions that need equipment the most. Also maybe the ability to control price gouging.

Trump's failure has been inaction and giving Kushner control of things, among many things