Author Topic: Kansas- more liberal abortion laws than New York  (Read 11091 times)

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Offline DQ12

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Re: Kansas- more liberal abortion laws than New York
« Reply #250 on: August 04, 2022, 10:37:47 AM »
I think part of the problem of the pro-life argument is that, if you truly accept the arguments that fetuses are babies and abortion is murder, there can't be exceptions.  That argument has to end with a total ban because it's banning murder.  There's no real space for exceptions or compromise with the other side when you view (or purposefully depict) them as baby murderers.

IMO, pro-lifers would be a lot better off improving access to birth control and sex education to prevent abortions like Colorado did.  When they are unwilling to take steps that have been proven effective to prevent abortion, I see the goal as not preventing baby murder but as forcing people to live by their religious dogma. 

Also a big problem for me is I don't see how Pro Lifer's haven't been rioting for the last 50 years and/or partying in the streets after Dobbs if they really believe abortion is murder. The reaction we get is the kind of reaction you'd expect if you view an abortion ban as more of "punishment for premarital sex" rather than "stopping murder"
Are you seriously asking why I haven't been rioting in the streets prior to Dobbs or just gE'ing?


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Offline ChiComCat

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Re: Kansas- more liberal abortion laws than New York
« Reply #251 on: August 04, 2022, 11:24:43 AM »

I think part of the problem of the pro-life argument is that, if you truly accept the arguments that fetuses are babies and abortion is murder, there can't be exceptions.  That argument has to end with a total ban because it's banning murder.  There's no real space for exceptions or compromise with the other side when you view (or purposefully depict) them as baby murderers.

IMO, pro-lifers would be a lot better off improving access to birth control and sex education to prevent abortions like Colorado did.  When they are unwilling to take steps that have been proven effective to prevent abortion, I see the goal as not preventing baby murder but as forcing people to live by their religious dogma.
This is wrong.  There can be rational exceptions -- at least in the case of serious health threat to the mother (which is universally excepted in every "near-total" ban i've seen).  I also think there are some fairly compelling arguments in the case of rape (recently i heard some heady lack-of-duty-based argument akin to the violinist thought experiment), but they haven't convinced me.

I agree that accessible birth control should be favored.  Also agree that systems should be in place to help with expenses. 

That's fair for life of the mother - but the process of making an exception for the life of the mother has sounded horrendous and unresonable in a lot of states that have bans. 
It seems fairly plain to me.  All that would be required is for the doctor performing the procedure to provide a legitimate health-basis for the procedure (e.g. "ectopic pregnancy"). Which doctors do pretty routinely for all sorts of things.

Your view that it seems plain is more reasonable, how they actually get implemented has been far more intrusive.  There are states that require multiple doctors to sign off that the health of the mother is at risk.  Because of these laws, many hospitals consult a lawyer.  All of this to make an innocent woman, having likely the worst day of her life, prove she's not committing a crime and wait to receive care while her life is at risk.  Despite following all legal reporting procedures when terminating the pregnancy of a 10 year old child/rape victim, a doctor is being investigated and harassed by the AG of Indiana so he can get publicity.  They allow "exceptions" and then the goal becomes to make those exceptions as few or difficult to access as possible.

While I'd generally like fewer abortions, I trust women to make these decisions for themselves far more than I trust the GOP with them.

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Re: Kansas- more liberal abortion laws than New York
« Reply #252 on: August 04, 2022, 11:59:45 AM »

I think part of the problem of the pro-life argument is that, if you truly accept the arguments that fetuses are babies and abortion is murder, there can't be exceptions.  That argument has to end with a total ban because it's banning murder.  There's no real space for exceptions or compromise with the other side when you view (or purposefully depict) them as baby murderers.

IMO, pro-lifers would be a lot better off improving access to birth control and sex education to prevent abortions like Colorado did.  When they are unwilling to take steps that have been proven effective to prevent abortion, I see the goal as not preventing baby murder but as forcing people to live by their religious dogma.
This is wrong.  There can be rational exceptions -- at least in the case of serious health threat to the mother (which is universally excepted in every "near-total" ban i've seen).  I also think there are some fairly compelling arguments in the case of rape (recently i heard some heady lack-of-duty-based argument akin to the violinist thought experiment), but they haven't convinced me.

I agree that accessible birth control should be favored.  Also agree that systems should be in place to help with expenses. 

That's fair for life of the mother - but the process of making an exception for the life of the mother has sounded horrendous and unresonable in a lot of states that have bans. 
It seems fairly plain to me.  All that would be required is for the doctor performing the procedure to provide a legitimate health-basis for the procedure (e.g. "ectopic pregnancy"). Which doctors do pretty routinely for all sorts of things.

Your view that it seems plain is more reasonable, how they actually get implemented has been far more intrusive.  There are states that require multiple doctors to sign off that the health of the mother is at risk.  Because of these laws, many hospitals consult a lawyer.  All of this to make an innocent woman, having likely the worst day of her life, prove she's not committing a crime and wait to receive care while her life is at risk.  Despite following all legal reporting procedures when terminating the pregnancy of a 10 year old child/rape victim, a doctor is being investigated and harassed by the AG of Indiana so he can get publicity.  They allow "exceptions" and then the goal becomes to make those exceptions as few or difficult to access as possible.

While I'd generally like fewer abortions, I trust women to make these decisions for themselves far more than I trust the GOP with them.
Yeah, I don't know.  I don't think it would be overly burdensome for doctors to provide their medical rationale for performing the procedure.  If requiring a second doctor to review and sign of on it is practically unworkable, then it shouldn't be a requirement.  If the health of the mother is at risk, perform the procedure.  Afterwards, write down why you performed it.   

I don't think these problems are without some fairly straightforward solutions.


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

Offline CHONGS

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Re: Kansas- more liberal abortion laws than New York
« Reply #253 on: August 04, 2022, 12:05:12 PM »
The whole point is to make sure there are no straightforward solutions. 

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Re: Kansas- more liberal abortion laws than New York
« Reply #254 on: August 04, 2022, 12:08:19 PM »
I think part of the problem of the pro-life argument is that, if you truly accept the arguments that fetuses are babies and abortion is murder, there can't be exceptions.  That argument has to end with a total ban because it's banning murder.  There's no real space for exceptions or compromise with the other side when you view (or purposefully depict) them as baby murderers.

IMO, pro-lifers would be a lot better off improving access to birth control and sex education to prevent abortions like Colorado did.  When they are unwilling to take steps that have been proven effective to prevent abortion, I see the goal as not preventing baby murder but as forcing people to live by their religious dogma. 

Also a big problem for me is I don't see how Pro Lifer's haven't been rioting for the last 50 years and/or partying in the streets after Dobbs if they really believe abortion is murder. The reaction we get is the kind of reaction you'd expect if you view an abortion ban as more of "punishment for premarital sex" rather than "stopping murder"
Are you seriously asking why I haven't been rioting in the streets prior to Dobbs or just gE'ing?

no I'm pretty sure I know why you weren't

Offline Woogy

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Re: Kansas- more liberal abortion laws than New York
« Reply #255 on: August 04, 2022, 12:15:40 PM »

I would be interesting to hear an honest answer from the Yes crowd regarding the obvious attempt to mislead the public.  It might have all been this one group, but I doubt it.
 - Amendment written in such a way that either it was intentionally misleading or written by idiots and incompetents
I don't really think the ballot was very confusing.  A lot of people think so apparently, so who knows.  It reads pretty straightforward to me.  Saying that people in the Kansas legislature are idiotic wouldn't get much of a protest from me though.

Dlew, you're a lawyer if I recall correctly, right? That's why it wasn't confusing to you. Almost none of the people voting have regular practice decoding convoluted run-on sentences meant to obfuscate and bury true meaning. Just as a fun and cool refresher, here's the text that appeared on the ballot:

Quote
Because Kansans value both women and children, the constitution of the state of Kansas does not require government funding of abortion and does not create or secure a right to abortion. To the extent permitted by the constitution of the United States, the people, through their elected state representatives and state senators, may pass laws regarding abortion, including, but not limited to, laws that account for circumstances of pregnancy resulting from rape or incest, or circumstances of necessity to save the life of the mother.”

I promise you that is not straightforward for 98% of voters, which is why I could find 200 articles written in the last 24 hours that mention the convoluted wording that, yes, was clearly done on purpose to confuse and intimidate. Also, the fact that a yes vote actually negated something (constitutional protection) and a no vote affirmed something (the 2019 decision) added an extra layer of confusion. The people who brought this bill knew what they were doing. They just didn't know their underhandedness would backfire so spectacularly.

Ehh, the Explanatory Statement, printed on every ballot directly alongside the specific amendment text, was pretty clear and concise:
Quote
Explanatory statement. The Value Them Both Amendment would affirm there is no Kansas constitutional right to abortion or to require the government funding
of abortion, and would reserve to the people of Kansas, through their elected state legislators, the right to pass laws to regulate abortion, including, but not limited
to, in circumstances of pregnancy resulting from rape or incest, or when necessary to save the life of the mother.

A vote for the Value Them Both Amendment would affirm there is no Kansas constitutional right to abortion or to require the government funding of abortion,
and would reserve to the people of Kansas, through their elected state legislators, the right to pass laws to regulate abortion.

A vote against the Value Them Both Amendment would make no changes to the constitution of the state of Kansas, and could restrict the people, through their elected
state legislators, from regulating abortion by leaving in place the recently recognized right to abortion.”
Shall the following be adopted?

Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: Kansas- more liberal abortion laws than New York
« Reply #256 on: August 04, 2022, 12:21:16 PM »
Should the Kansas Constitution be amended so that there is not a right to abortion.

Check yes or no

To argue that was written well and not intended to get a certain result is lolllll

Offline cfbandyman

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Re: Kansas- more liberal abortion laws than New York
« Reply #257 on: August 04, 2022, 12:30:09 PM »
Should the Kansas Constitution be amended so that there is not a right to abortion.

Check yes or no

To argue that was written well and not intended to get a certain result is lolllll

Yeah, I am glad they had to add all that clarification because the actual wording of the question was so stupid.

In the end, VTB and the entire anti-abortion campaign did everything they could to curtail the vote, provide misinformation, and made it all confusion.

-Poorly worded question? Check
-Put it in a primary to try and drive down the vote? Check
-Scream about out of state dark money/the other side is trying to not protect women/the left's false narrative, check, check, check
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Re: Kansas- more liberal abortion laws than New York
« Reply #258 on: August 04, 2022, 12:34:11 PM »
I think part of the problem of the pro-life argument is that, if you truly accept the arguments that fetuses are babies and abortion is murder, there can't be exceptions.  That argument has to end with a total ban because it's banning murder.  There's no real space for exceptions or compromise with the other side when you view (or purposefully depict) them as baby murderers.

IMO, pro-lifers would be a lot better off improving access to birth control and sex education to prevent abortions like Colorado did.  When they are unwilling to take steps that have been proven effective to prevent abortion, I see the goal as not preventing baby murder but as forcing people to live by their religious dogma. 

Also a big problem for me is I don't see how Pro Lifer's haven't been rioting for the last 50 years and/or partying in the streets after Dobbs if they really believe abortion is murder. The reaction we get is the kind of reaction you'd expect if you view an abortion ban as more of "punishment for premarital sex" rather than "stopping murder"
Are you seriously asking why I haven't been rioting in the streets prior to Dobbs or just gE'ing?

no I'm pretty sure I know why you weren't
I'm all ears

The notion that people have an obligation to "riot in the streets," and that anything short of that somehow demonstrates disingenuousness, is ridiculous.


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

Offline TheHamburglar

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Re: Kansas- more liberal abortion laws than New York
« Reply #259 on: August 04, 2022, 12:38:50 PM »
I know a pretty pro-life Catholic that had a molar pregnancy. It was pretty traumatic for them. Before the doctors knew what was going on, their first thought was abuse from her husband to the point her father had to force the hospital to change the doctor giving care. I don’t know how she voted, but the thought that voting yes could result in purposely vague laws, such as those in Missouri & Texas worried her. She was worried it could result in even more issues with treatment & hesitation from hospital staff/lawyers in trying to determine if she had fetal tissue & if removing that fetal tissue created legal risk for them. She was pretty disturbed that a yes outcome could make someone else’s experience worse than what she went through in what she sees as a pretty obvious situation for an immediate D&C.

Oklahoma’s governor likes to brag that he’s the most pro-life governor in the country & will sign any abortion bill that comes to his desk. Taking away Kansas’ safe guard against potential governors like him (“Kobach almost happened” in their words) definitely entered her mind.
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Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: Kansas- more liberal abortion laws than New York
« Reply #260 on: August 04, 2022, 12:39:56 PM »
Should the Kansas Constitution be amended so that there is not a right to abortion.

Check yes or no

To argue that was written well and not intended to get a certain result is lolllll

Yeah, I am glad they had to add all that clarification because the actual wording of the question was so stupid.

In the end, VTB and the entire anti-abortion campaign did everything they could to curtail the vote, provide misinformation, and made it all confusion.

-Poorly worded question? Check
-Put it in a primary to try and drive down the vote? Check
-Scream about out of state dark money/the other side is trying to not protect women/the left's false narrative, check, check, check

Include illegal spam texts with blatant lies the afternoon of vote

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Re: Kansas- more liberal abortion laws than New York
« Reply #261 on: August 04, 2022, 12:42:24 PM »
Should the Kansas Constitution be amended so that there is not a right to abortion.

Check yes or no

To argue that was written well and not intended to get a certain result is lolllll

Yeah, I am glad they had to add all that clarification because the actual wording of the question was so stupid.

In the end, VTB and the entire anti-abortion campaign did everything they could to curtail the vote, provide misinformation, and made it all confusion.

-Poorly worded question? Check
-Put it in a primary to try and drive down the vote? Check
-Scream about out of state dark money/the other side is trying to not protect women/the left's false narrative, check, check, check

Include illegal spam texts with blatant lies the afternoon of vote
Yep.  Gotta cut all that crap out. 


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

Offline michigancat

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Re: Kansas- more liberal abortion laws than New York
« Reply #262 on: August 04, 2022, 12:47:54 PM »
I think part of the problem of the pro-life argument is that, if you truly accept the arguments that fetuses are babies and abortion is murder, there can't be exceptions.  That argument has to end with a total ban because it's banning murder.  There's no real space for exceptions or compromise with the other side when you view (or purposefully depict) them as baby murderers.

IMO, pro-lifers would be a lot better off improving access to birth control and sex education to prevent abortions like Colorado did.  When they are unwilling to take steps that have been proven effective to prevent abortion, I see the goal as not preventing baby murder but as forcing people to live by their religious dogma. 

Also a big problem for me is I don't see how Pro Lifer's haven't been rioting for the last 50 years and/or partying in the streets after Dobbs if they really believe abortion is murder. The reaction we get is the kind of reaction you'd expect if you view an abortion ban as more of "punishment for premarital sex" rather than "stopping murder"
Are you seriously asking why I haven't been rioting in the streets prior to Dobbs or just gE'ing?

no I'm pretty sure I know why you weren't
I'm all ears

The notion that people have an obligation to "riot in the streets," and that anything short of that somehow demonstrates disingenuousness, is ridiculous.

What do you think is an appropriate response to mass murder in your community?

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Re: Kansas- more liberal abortion laws than New York
« Reply #263 on: August 04, 2022, 12:48:50 PM »
I think part of the problem of the pro-life argument is that, if you truly accept the arguments that fetuses are babies and abortion is murder, there can't be exceptions.  That argument has to end with a total ban because it's banning murder.  There's no real space for exceptions or compromise with the other side when you view (or purposefully depict) them as baby murderers.

IMO, pro-lifers would be a lot better off improving access to birth control and sex education to prevent abortions like Colorado did.  When they are unwilling to take steps that have been proven effective to prevent abortion, I see the goal as not preventing baby murder but as forcing people to live by their religious dogma. 

Also a big problem for me is I don't see how Pro Lifer's haven't been rioting for the last 50 years and/or partying in the streets after Dobbs if they really believe abortion is murder. The reaction we get is the kind of reaction you'd expect if you view an abortion ban as more of "punishment for premarital sex" rather than "stopping murder"
Are you seriously asking why I haven't been rioting in the streets prior to Dobbs or just gE'ing?

no I'm pretty sure I know why you weren't
I'm all ears

The notion that people have an obligation to "riot in the streets," and that anything short of that somehow demonstrates disingenuousness, is ridiculous.

What do you think is an appropriate response to mass murder in your community?
Take to Facebook!

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Re: Kansas- more liberal abortion laws than New York
« Reply #264 on: August 04, 2022, 12:50:45 PM »
Should the Kansas Constitution be amended so that there is not a right to abortion.

Check yes or no

To argue that was written well and not intended to get a certain result is lolllll

Yeah, I am glad they had to add all that clarification because the actual wording of the question was so stupid.

In the end, VTB and the entire anti-abortion campaign did everything they could to curtail the vote, provide misinformation, and made it all confusion.

-Poorly worded question? Check
-Put it in a primary to try and drive down the vote? Check
-Scream about out of state dark money/the other side is trying to not protect women/the left's false narrative, check, check, check

Include illegal spam texts with blatant lies the afternoon of vote
Yep.  Gotta cut all that crap out.

Will literally never happen.  Like literally never.  Leopards/spots

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Re: Kansas- more liberal abortion laws than New York
« Reply #265 on: August 04, 2022, 12:53:07 PM »
I think part of the problem of the pro-life argument is that, if you truly accept the arguments that fetuses are babies and abortion is murder, there can't be exceptions.  That argument has to end with a total ban because it's banning murder.  There's no real space for exceptions or compromise with the other side when you view (or purposefully depict) them as baby murderers.

IMO, pro-lifers would be a lot better off improving access to birth control and sex education to prevent abortions like Colorado did.  When they are unwilling to take steps that have been proven effective to prevent abortion, I see the goal as not preventing baby murder but as forcing people to live by their religious dogma. 

Also a big problem for me is I don't see how Pro Lifer's haven't been rioting for the last 50 years and/or partying in the streets after Dobbs if they really believe abortion is murder. The reaction we get is the kind of reaction you'd expect if you view an abortion ban as more of "punishment for premarital sex" rather than "stopping murder"
Are you seriously asking why I haven't been rioting in the streets prior to Dobbs or just gE'ing?

no I'm pretty sure I know why you weren't
I'm all ears

The notion that people have an obligation to "riot in the streets," and that anything short of that somehow demonstrates disingenuousness, is ridiculous.

What do you think is an appropriate response to mass murder in your community?
Take measures to try to reduce it?

If I went out on the street in a rage because of abortions in Kansas, it would accomplish nothing other than me ending up in a prison cell or mental asylum.  Completely irrational.


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

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Re: Kansas- more liberal abortion laws than New York
« Reply #266 on: August 04, 2022, 12:55:18 PM »
Should the Kansas Constitution be amended so that there is not a right to abortion.

Check yes or no

To argue that was written well and not intended to get a certain result is lolllll

Yeah, I am glad they had to add all that clarification because the actual wording of the question was so stupid.

In the end, VTB and the entire anti-abortion campaign did everything they could to curtail the vote, provide misinformation, and made it all confusion.

-Poorly worded question? Check
-Put it in a primary to try and drive down the vote? Check
-Scream about out of state dark money/the other side is trying to not protect women/the left's false narrative, check, check, check

Include illegal spam texts with blatant lies the afternoon of vote
Yep.  Gotta cut all that crap out.

Will literally never happen.  Like literally never.  Leopards/spots
Well in Kansas, at least, it's back to the drawing board for pro-life'rs.  I think a pretty fundamental shift is warranted after Tuesday.


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

Offline Institutional Control

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Re: Kansas- more liberal abortion laws than New York
« Reply #267 on: August 04, 2022, 01:00:24 PM »
I think part of the problem of the pro-life argument is that, if you truly accept the arguments that fetuses are babies and abortion is murder, there can't be exceptions.  That argument has to end with a total ban because it's banning murder.  There's no real space for exceptions or compromise with the other side when you view (or purposefully depict) them as baby murderers.

IMO, pro-lifers would be a lot better off improving access to birth control and sex education to prevent abortions like Colorado did.  When they are unwilling to take steps that have been proven effective to prevent abortion, I see the goal as not preventing baby murder but as forcing people to live by their religious dogma. 

Also a big problem for me is I don't see how Pro Lifer's haven't been rioting for the last 50 years and/or partying in the streets after Dobbs if they really believe abortion is murder. The reaction we get is the kind of reaction you'd expect if you view an abortion ban as more of "punishment for premarital sex" rather than "stopping murder"
Are you seriously asking why I haven't been rioting in the streets prior to Dobbs or just gE'ing?

no I'm pretty sure I know why you weren't
I'm all ears

The notion that people have an obligation to "riot in the streets," and that anything short of that somehow demonstrates disingenuousness, is ridiculous.

What do you think is an appropriate response to mass murder in your community?
Take measures to try to reduce it?

If I went out on the street in a rage because of abortions in Kansas, it would accomplish nothing other than me ending up in a prison cell or mental asylum.  Completely irrational.

Because almost nobody believes abortion = murder.

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Re: Kansas- more liberal abortion laws than New York
« Reply #268 on: August 04, 2022, 01:05:28 PM »
I think part of the problem of the pro-life argument is that, if you truly accept the arguments that fetuses are babies and abortion is murder, there can't be exceptions.  That argument has to end with a total ban because it's banning murder.  There's no real space for exceptions or compromise with the other side when you view (or purposefully depict) them as baby murderers.

IMO, pro-lifers would be a lot better off improving access to birth control and sex education to prevent abortions like Colorado did.  When they are unwilling to take steps that have been proven effective to prevent abortion, I see the goal as not preventing baby murder but as forcing people to live by their religious dogma. 

Also a big problem for me is I don't see how Pro Lifer's haven't been rioting for the last 50 years and/or partying in the streets after Dobbs if they really believe abortion is murder. The reaction we get is the kind of reaction you'd expect if you view an abortion ban as more of "punishment for premarital sex" rather than "stopping murder"
Are you seriously asking why I haven't been rioting in the streets prior to Dobbs or just gE'ing?

no I'm pretty sure I know why you weren't
I'm all ears

The notion that people have an obligation to "riot in the streets," and that anything short of that somehow demonstrates disingenuousness, is ridiculous.

What do you think is an appropriate response to mass murder in your community?
Take measures to try to reduce it?

that's quite a non-answer.  I'm asking what you specifically think is an appropriate response to reduce mass murder in your community.

I mean spracne jokingly said "take to facebook!". Did you post about the vote on facebook much? Instagram? Should you go further than social media posts?

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Re: Kansas- more liberal abortion laws than New York
« Reply #269 on: August 04, 2022, 01:08:04 PM »
I think part of the problem of the pro-life argument is that, if you truly accept the arguments that fetuses are babies and abortion is murder, there can't be exceptions.  That argument has to end with a total ban because it's banning murder.  There's no real space for exceptions or compromise with the other side when you view (or purposefully depict) them as baby murderers.

IMO, pro-lifers would be a lot better off improving access to birth control and sex education to prevent abortions like Colorado did.  When they are unwilling to take steps that have been proven effective to prevent abortion, I see the goal as not preventing baby murder but as forcing people to live by their religious dogma. 

Also a big problem for me is I don't see how Pro Lifer's haven't been rioting for the last 50 years and/or partying in the streets after Dobbs if they really believe abortion is murder. The reaction we get is the kind of reaction you'd expect if you view an abortion ban as more of "punishment for premarital sex" rather than "stopping murder"
Are you seriously asking why I haven't been rioting in the streets prior to Dobbs or just gE'ing?

no I'm pretty sure I know why you weren't
I'm all ears

The notion that people have an obligation to "riot in the streets," and that anything short of that somehow demonstrates disingenuousness, is ridiculous.

What do you think is an appropriate response to mass murder in your community?
Take measures to try to reduce it?

that's quite a non-answer.  I'm asking what you specifically think is an appropriate response to reduce mass murder in your community.

I mean spracne jokingly said "take to facebook!". Did you post about the vote on facebook much? Instagram? Should you go further than social media posts?
I think people should vote and provide support to causes aimed towards reducing the number of abortions and try to convince others that abortion is wrong.  I do those things. 


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Kansas- more liberal abortion laws than New York
« Reply #270 on: August 04, 2022, 01:09:35 PM »
It's strange to me that the question was worded the way that it was because a whole lot of the population that is going to vote pro-life is old, senile, and easy to confuse.

Offline Spracne

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Re: Kansas- more liberal abortion laws than New York
« Reply #271 on: August 04, 2022, 01:15:19 PM »
It's strange to me that the question was worded the way that it was because a whole lot of the population that is going to vote pro-life is old, senile, and easy to confuse.
Yeah, I wondering if some of the surprising rural numbers were a result of this.

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Re: Kansas- more liberal abortion laws than New York
« Reply #272 on: August 04, 2022, 01:21:33 PM »
I think part of the problem of the pro-life argument is that, if you truly accept the arguments that fetuses are babies and abortion is murder, there can't be exceptions.  That argument has to end with a total ban because it's banning murder.  There's no real space for exceptions or compromise with the other side when you view (or purposefully depict) them as baby murderers.

IMO, pro-lifers would be a lot better off improving access to birth control and sex education to prevent abortions like Colorado did.  When they are unwilling to take steps that have been proven effective to prevent abortion, I see the goal as not preventing baby murder but as forcing people to live by their religious dogma. 

Also a big problem for me is I don't see how Pro Lifer's haven't been rioting for the last 50 years and/or partying in the streets after Dobbs if they really believe abortion is murder. The reaction we get is the kind of reaction you'd expect if you view an abortion ban as more of "punishment for premarital sex" rather than "stopping murder"
Are you seriously asking why I haven't been rioting in the streets prior to Dobbs or just gE'ing?

no I'm pretty sure I know why you weren't
I'm all ears

The notion that people have an obligation to "riot in the streets," and that anything short of that somehow demonstrates disingenuousness, is ridiculous.

What do you think is an appropriate response to mass murder in your community?
Take measures to try to reduce it?

that's quite a non-answer.  I'm asking what you specifically think is an appropriate response to reduce mass murder in your community.

I mean spracne jokingly said "take to facebook!". Did you post about the vote on facebook much? Instagram? Should you go further than social media posts?
I think people should vote and provide support to causes aimed towards reducing the number of abortions and try to convince others that abortion is wrong.  I do those things. 

yep. I think that's the type of action one might also take against, say, littering in their community.

Offline DQ12

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Re: Kansas- more liberal abortion laws than New York
« Reply #273 on: August 04, 2022, 01:30:11 PM »
yep. I think that's the type of action one might also take against, say, littering in their community.
I'm just not quite grasping what you think the appropriate response is. 

Would you be more likely to support the pro-life cause if I started spamming pro life memes on facebook or went out and firebombed a planned parenthood or something?  I don't think those things are helpful.


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

Offline OK_Cat

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Re: Kansas- more liberal abortion laws than New York
« Reply #274 on: August 04, 2022, 01:32:33 PM »
yep. I think that's the type of action one might also take against, say, littering in their community.
I'm just not quite grasping what you think the appropriate response is. 

Would you be more likely to support the pro-life cause if I started spamming pro life memes on facebook or went out and firebombed a planned parenthood or something?
I think what krusty may be getting at is that your reaction seems fairly calm for what you profess to be mass murder


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