Author Topic: Killing babies at 9 months  (Read 26528 times)

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Offline catastrophe

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Killing babies at 9 months
« Reply #175 on: February 01, 2019, 02:11:39 PM »
I live in Texas and I have never heard of someone being forced to carry a miscarriage/stillbirth to term. There are people who still do either on religious grounds or just hoping for a miracle.

As far as potentially life threatening deformities I’m not sure what the rules are. I recently heard of someone who knew their child would be born with part of their intestines on the outside :sdeek: but apparently that is a very treatable condition and they were good to go like a week after the birth.

Offline catastrophe

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Killing babies at 9 months
« Reply #176 on: February 01, 2019, 02:14:42 PM »
And that all is more directed to Trey’s question. Obviously I’m not speculating as to SD SIL’s situation.

Offline steve dave

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Re: Killing babies at 9 months
« Reply #177 on: February 01, 2019, 02:19:54 PM »
it wasn't a miscarriage. My wife and I had a miscarriage and that process was absolutely horrible but that's a different topic. it was one of those genetic things they test for once you know you are pregnant. that's also a fun process, getting told about each of the horrific things that they are going to test for and then waiting for a week with that information in your brain before finding out the results. I don't remember what the name was but it was incredibly rare and one I hadn't heard of.

Offline 420seriouscat69

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Re: Killing babies at 9 months
« Reply #178 on: February 01, 2019, 02:21:37 PM »
 :frown: Sorry to hear, SD.

Offline treysolid

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Re: Killing babies at 9 months
« Reply #179 on: February 01, 2019, 02:26:17 PM »
How's this for a novel concept - how about we let medical professionals determine what constitutes "the health of the mother" instead of politicians? This country's growing disdain of expertise is very concerning.

Offline steve dave

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Re: Killing babies at 9 months
« Reply #180 on: February 01, 2019, 02:32:15 PM »
How's this for a novel concept - how about we let medical professionals determine what constitutes "the health of the mother" instead of politicians? This country's growing disdain of expertise is very concerning.

 :thumbs:

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Killing babies at 9 months
« Reply #181 on: February 01, 2019, 02:39:06 PM »
it was one of those genetic things they test for once you know you are pregnant. that's also a fun process, getting told about each of the horrific things that they are going to test for and then waiting for a week with that information in your brain before finding out the results.

Yeah we opted out of that testing for that reason.

Offline Trim

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Re: Killing babies at 9 months
« Reply #182 on: February 01, 2019, 02:44:28 PM »

Offline DQ12

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Re: Killing babies at 9 months
« Reply #183 on: February 01, 2019, 03:01:54 PM »
How's this for a novel concept - how about we let medical professionals determine what constitutes "the health of the mother" instead of politicians? This country's growing disdain of expertise is very concerning.
Because "the health of the mother" is a (likely intentionally) vague standard which leaves a lot of room for subjectivity/personal beliefs/politics.  Debating the impact of such a vague standard on an important morality/rights issue should not require an MD.


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Offline steve dave

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Killing babies at 9 months
« Reply #184 on: February 01, 2019, 03:07:32 PM »
How's this for a novel concept - how about we let medical professionals determine what constitutes "the health of the mother" instead of politicians? This country's growing disdain of expertise is very concerning.
Because "the health of the mother" is a (likely intentionally) vague standard which leaves a lot of room for subjectivity/personal beliefs/politics.  Debating the impact of such a vague standard on an important morality/rights issue should not require an MD.

Strongly disagree


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Offline treysolid

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Re: Killing babies at 9 months
« Reply #185 on: February 01, 2019, 03:12:36 PM »
How's this for a novel concept - how about we let medical professionals determine what constitutes "the health of the mother" instead of politicians? This country's growing disdain of expertise is very concerning.
Because "the health of the mother" is a (likely intentionally) vague standard which leaves a lot of room for subjectivity/personal beliefs/politics.  Debating the impact of such a vague standard on an important morality/rights issue should not require an MD.

Every single day, doctors have to determine what constitutes an acceptable level of risk for every procedure that they perform on every patient. Late-term abortion is no different. Doctors simply have to assess, given the sum of medical factors involved, whether or not labor represents an undue risk to the mother. The only other voice that matters in this discussion is that of said mother.

Offline DQ12

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Re: Killing babies at 9 months
« Reply #186 on: February 01, 2019, 03:13:33 PM »
How's this for a novel concept - how about we let medical professionals determine what constitutes "the health of the mother" instead of politicians? This country's growing disdain of expertise is very concerning.
Because "the health of the mother" is a (likely intentionally) vague standard which leaves a lot of room for subjectivity/personal beliefs/politics.  Debating the impact of such a vague standard on an important morality/rights issue should not require an MD.

Strongly disagree

If you have to be a certified expert on a subject in order to engage in valid discourse on that subject, then everyone needs to shut up about almost everything.


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Offline treysolid

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Re: Killing babies at 9 months
« Reply #187 on: February 01, 2019, 03:14:52 PM »
Even if you wanted to play the morality card because you believe that abortion is murder, then think of late-term abortions that preserve the mothers well-being as self-defense. Not guilty, your honor.

Offline Woogy

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Re: Killing babies at 9 months
« Reply #188 on: February 01, 2019, 03:15:18 PM »
Both Mengele as well as Schweitzer were physicians, and, presumably, experts.

Offline steve dave

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Re: Killing babies at 9 months
« Reply #189 on: February 01, 2019, 03:18:44 PM »
How's this for a novel concept - how about we let medical professionals determine what constitutes "the health of the mother" instead of politicians? This country's growing disdain of expertise is very concerning.
Because "the health of the mother" is a (likely intentionally) vague standard which leaves a lot of room for subjectivity/personal beliefs/politics.  Debating the impact of such a vague standard on an important morality/rights issue should not require an MD.

Strongly disagree

If you have to be a certified expert on a subject in order to engage in valid discourse on that subject, then everyone needs to shut up about almost everything.

I'm certainly not calling for that

Offline treysolid

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Re: Killing babies at 9 months
« Reply #190 on: February 01, 2019, 03:20:20 PM »
How's this for a novel concept - how about we let medical professionals determine what constitutes "the health of the mother" instead of politicians? This country's growing disdain of expertise is very concerning.
Because "the health of the mother" is a (likely intentionally) vague standard which leaves a lot of room for subjectivity/personal beliefs/politics.  Debating the impact of such a vague standard on an important morality/rights issue should not require an MD.

Strongly disagree

If you have to be a certified expert on a subject in order to engage in valid discourse on that subject, then everyone needs to shut up about almost everything.

The totality of medical factors that comprise someone's "health" cannot be simply categorized for law. These things are immensely complex need to be assessed on a case-by-case basis.

Offline DQ12

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Re: Killing babies at 9 months
« Reply #191 on: February 01, 2019, 03:20:40 PM »
How's this for a novel concept - how about we let medical professionals determine what constitutes "the health of the mother" instead of politicians? This country's growing disdain of expertise is very concerning.
Because "the health of the mother" is a (likely intentionally) vague standard which leaves a lot of room for subjectivity/personal beliefs/politics.  Debating the impact of such a vague standard on an important morality/rights issue should not require an MD.

Every single day, doctors have to determine what constitutes an acceptable level of risk for every procedure that they perform on every patient. Late-term abortion is no different. Doctors simply have to assess, given the sum of medical factors involved, whether or not labor represents an undue risk to the mother. The only other voice that matters in this discussion is that of said mother.
I must be missing something about your point or the underlying purpose of the law.

My reading of it is that it permits late term abortions where necessary to protect the health of the mother.  Stated in the negative, it prohibits only those late term abortions that are not necessary to protect the health of the mother.

I guess my confusion about your point could be cleared up if you gave me your impression about why we're prohibiting any late term abortions at all, regardless of the mother's health?  Why should a statute prevent a mother from deciding just before birth that she wants an abortion for no reason at all? 


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Offline treysolid

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Re: Killing babies at 9 months
« Reply #192 on: February 01, 2019, 03:22:36 PM »
Both Mengele as well as Schweitzer were physicians, and, presumably, experts.

Would you posit that they both upheld the Hippocratic oath? Go back to your hayfield.

Offline Woogy

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Re: Killing babies at 9 months
« Reply #193 on: February 01, 2019, 03:30:09 PM »
Both Mengele as well as Schweitzer were physicians, and, presumably, experts.

Would you posit that they both upheld the Hippocratic oath? Go back to your hayfield.

Well, one was certainly more upholding than the other.  Are you sure you're not overdue for a visit to your own hayfield?

Offline treysolid

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Re: Killing babies at 9 months
« Reply #194 on: February 01, 2019, 03:33:44 PM »
How's this for a novel concept - how about we let medical professionals determine what constitutes "the health of the mother" instead of politicians? This country's growing disdain of expertise is very concerning.
Because "the health of the mother" is a (likely intentionally) vague standard which leaves a lot of room for subjectivity/personal beliefs/politics.  Debating the impact of such a vague standard on an important morality/rights issue should not require an MD.

Every single day, doctors have to determine what constitutes an acceptable level of risk for every procedure that they perform on every patient. Late-term abortion is no different. Doctors simply have to assess, given the sum of medical factors involved, whether or not labor represents an undue risk to the mother. The only other voice that matters in this discussion is that of said mother.
I must be missing something about your point or the underlying purpose of the law.

My reading of it is that it permits late term abortions where necessary to protect the health of the mother.  Stated in the negative, it prohibits only those late term abortions that are not necessary to protect the health of the mother.

I guess my confusion about your point could be cleared up if you gave me your impression about why we're prohibiting any late term abortions at all, regardless of the mother's health?  Why should a statute prevent a mother from deciding just before birth that she wants an abortion for no reason at all?

That's not what's on the table. The new NY law only permits abortion after 24 weeks if the mother's health is threatened by either the pregnancy itself or the labor process. This whole "walk up and get an abortion the day before your due date because you changed your mind" thing isn't permitted under this law.

Offline 8manpick

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Re: Killing babies at 9 months
« Reply #195 on: February 01, 2019, 03:35:01 PM »
Why are we arguing about this? The last time anyone changed their mind on abortion was like 1994
:adios:

Offline catastrophe

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Killing babies at 9 months
« Reply #196 on: February 01, 2019, 03:39:49 PM »
How's this for a novel concept - how about we let medical professionals determine what constitutes "the health of the mother" instead of politicians? This country's growing disdain of expertise is very concerning.
Because "the health of the mother" is a (likely intentionally) vague standard which leaves a lot of room for subjectivity/personal beliefs/politics.  Debating the impact of such a vague standard on an important morality/rights issue should not require an MD.

Every single day, doctors have to determine what constitutes an acceptable level of risk for every procedure that they perform on every patient. Late-term abortion is no different. Doctors simply have to assess, given the sum of medical factors involved, whether or not labor represents an undue risk to the mother. The only other voice that matters in this discussion is that of said mother.

Every single day, doctors also get sued for malpractice for doing a shitty job of balancing those factors. Most of the time it’s for problems that can be fixed, but when you’re talking about intentionally ending a life the stakes are pretty damn high. Not saying the vast majority isn’t capable of doing it, but how many mistakes are we willing to tolerate when the consequence is a dead child that should be alive.

Offline DQ12

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Re: Killing babies at 9 months
« Reply #197 on: February 01, 2019, 03:45:10 PM »
How's this for a novel concept - how about we let medical professionals determine what constitutes "the health of the mother" instead of politicians? This country's growing disdain of expertise is very concerning.
Because "the health of the mother" is a (likely intentionally) vague standard which leaves a lot of room for subjectivity/personal beliefs/politics.  Debating the impact of such a vague standard on an important morality/rights issue should not require an MD.

Every single day, doctors have to determine what constitutes an acceptable level of risk for every procedure that they perform on every patient. Late-term abortion is no different. Doctors simply have to assess, given the sum of medical factors involved, whether or not labor represents an undue risk to the mother. The only other voice that matters in this discussion is that of said mother.
I must be missing something about your point or the underlying purpose of the law.

My reading of it is that it permits late term abortions where necessary to protect the health of the mother.  Stated in the negative, it prohibits only those late term abortions that are not necessary to protect the health of the mother.

I guess my confusion about your point could be cleared up if you gave me your impression about why we're prohibiting any late term abortions at all, regardless of the mother's health?  Why should a statute prevent a mother from deciding just before birth that she wants an abortion for no reason at all?

That's not what's on the table. The new NY law only permits abortion after 24 weeks if the mother's health is threatened by either the pregnancy itself or the labor process. This whole "walk up and get an abortion the day before your due date because you changed your mind" thing isn't permitted under this law.
Of course.  I asked because I think we're disagreeing about an implicit but fundamental purpose of the law.

The law offers a condition upon which doctors can abort late term fetuses, effectively stating the following (paraphrasing so forgive me if i'm not using precise terms):  "We only allow those late term abortions that are necessary to protect the health of the mother."  Implicitly, the law says we can abort some late term fetuses, but not all: we can only abort where mom's health is an issue.  Stated differently, some late term fetuses have to be born.  Where mom's health is not an issue, her late term fetus must be born.  Why?  Because those are the rules we decided to impose.

 It seems logical to me that the "health" condition exists because, implicitly, we, as a society - experts and non-experts alike - have decided that we don't want doctors performing late term abortions in every single instance the mother desires.  If society was OK with doctors performing abortions in every instance, then what's he point of the "health of the mother" condition?  We'd just write a law that allows late term abortions full stop.  If we wanted to give doctors complete discretion about when to perform abortions (at the mother's will), we ought to have just given them that -- we didn't need any health condition in the first place.  Instead we imposed a standard that doctors must follow. 

Now, if the standard set by society is too vague for doctors to possibly interpret and carry out properly and consistently, then I think there's an obvious and legitimate problem with the standard which ought to be addressed. 

I don't think discussing or understanding any of the above concepts requires anyone to attend a science class.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 04:07:01 PM by Dlew12 »


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Offline treysolid

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Re: Killing babies at 9 months
« Reply #198 on: February 01, 2019, 04:15:00 PM »
How's this for a novel concept - how about we let medical professionals determine what constitutes "the health of the mother" instead of politicians? This country's growing disdain of expertise is very concerning.
Because "the health of the mother" is a (likely intentionally) vague standard which leaves a lot of room for subjectivity/personal beliefs/politics.  Debating the impact of such a vague standard on an important morality/rights issue should not require an MD.

Every single day, doctors have to determine what constitutes an acceptable level of risk for every procedure that they perform on every patient. Late-term abortion is no different. Doctors simply have to assess, given the sum of medical factors involved, whether or not labor represents an undue risk to the mother. The only other voice that matters in this discussion is that of said mother.

Every single day, doctors also get sued for malpractice for doing a shitty job of balancing those factors. Most of the time it’s for problems that can be fixed, but when you’re talking about intentionally ending a life the stakes are pretty damn high. Not saying the vast majority isn’t capable of doing it, but how many mistakes are we willing to tolerate when the consequence is a dead child that should be alive.

You're helping make the point. Even doctors get it wrong from time to time, so what chance does a politician have to improve upon that?

Offline catastrophe

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Killing babies at 9 months
« Reply #199 on: February 01, 2019, 04:19:01 PM »
By limiting the types of circumstances under which the doctors can legally kill babies.

I don’t understand your point unless your argument is that abortion should be allowed any time a dr and mother agree to do it. I understand that is a valid position to take, but it is much more extreme than any state law I am aware of.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 04:22:13 PM by catastrophe »