Author Topic: MEGA MAGA  (Read 803790 times)

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Offline Trim

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Re: MAGA
« Reply #5600 on: February 18, 2022, 02:17:20 PM »

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: MAGA
« Reply #5601 on: February 18, 2022, 03:25:26 PM »
Imagine have such low self esteem, and being so weak, that you have to invoke anti-terrorism laws to try and stop people who are  protesting peacefully.

It's no wonder #blueanon/#blueanonGe loves Fidel Trudeau Jr. so much.


Offline Katpappy

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Re: MAGA
« Reply #5602 on: February 18, 2022, 05:30:20 PM »
What the truckers really need to protest is the low pay they get.  Most have not had an income boost since the 90's, and it sucks.
Hot time in Kat town tonight.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: MAGA
« Reply #5603 on: February 18, 2022, 08:33:34 PM »
Fidel Trudeau and his right hand henchwoman are invoking permanent emergency powers. 

Thank goodness Canada lives under the soft cozy blanket of US military might. 

Absolutely terrified of some truckers.

Offline star seed 7

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Re: MAGA
« Reply #5604 on: February 18, 2022, 08:44:33 PM »
Fidel Trudeau and his right hand henchwoman are invoking permanent emergency powers. 

Thank goodness Canada lives under the soft cozy blanket of US military might. 

Absolutely terrified of some truckers.

FYI for those of you that aren't plugged in to the conspiracy scene, maga nation thinks Trudeau is the secret bastard son of Fidel Castro
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline steve dave

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Re: MAGA
« Reply #5605 on: February 18, 2022, 09:07:54 PM »
lmao wut

Offline chum1

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Re: MAGA
« Reply #5606 on: February 18, 2022, 09:27:12 PM »
Lol

Offline mocat

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Re: MAGA
« Reply #5607 on: February 18, 2022, 09:49:02 PM »
omg

Online Tobias

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Re: MAGA
« Reply #5608 on: February 18, 2022, 09:59:20 PM »
:lol:

Offline Trim

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Re: MAGA
« Reply #5609 on: February 18, 2022, 10:13:14 PM »
:lol:

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: MAGA
« Reply #5610 on: February 19, 2022, 01:06:37 AM »
 :ROFL: oh dax

Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: MAGA
« Reply #5611 on: February 19, 2022, 10:27:07 AM »
Fidel Trudeau and his right hand henchwoman are invoking permanent emergency powers. 

Thank goodness Canada lives under the soft cozy blanket of US military might. 

Absolutely terrified of some truckers.

FYI for those of you that aren't plugged in to the conspiracy scene, maga nation thinks Trudeau is the secret bastard son of Fidel Castro

I’m here for this old man insanity

Offline Trim

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Re: MAGA
« Reply #5612 on: February 19, 2022, 10:43:30 AM »
Nothing is confirmed.  So anyone saying it’s made up doesn’t have the first rough ridin' clue if it is or not.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: MAGA
« Reply #5613 on: February 19, 2022, 11:34:06 AM »
I listened to a little bit of left-right-center and I think a lot of the arguments against the trucker's that I've heard are really weak because people just keep making arguments against civil disobedience, which they wouldn't make any of those procedural arguments if they thought the cause was noble but that is generally their focus.  I'm deeply uncomfortable with the ease with which I hear people make arguments against civil disobedience.

A lot of the first principles in the case aren't even being discussed except by the truckers. I don't think most people are used to actually considering any of these first principles in political debates, because we are so used to saying things like "well you make your choice and I'll make mine" and just agree to disagree.

I don't think it is unique to the truckers, but also the arguments about public school curriculum and censorship where we have issues that require some consensus or a decision about what is the right thing for everyone in society the only people making first principles arguments are people on the right.  I don't agree with them, but it is a losing battle to constantly dismiss their first principles and not clash with them on those and instead try to mock or retreat to other more practical or procedural arguments because at some point the first principles should be sorted out and the more open that debate the better.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2022, 11:37:43 AM by Kat Kid »

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: MAGA
« Reply #5614 on: February 19, 2022, 11:40:22 AM »
The most extreme version is of course Matt Yglesias' insane take that THE UNITED STATES should send in tanks to Canada to clear the protestors out because they are interfering with global capitalism.

Offline Spracne

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Re: MAGA
« Reply #5615 on: February 19, 2022, 12:40:27 PM »
I listened to a little bit of left-right-center and I think a lot of the arguments against the trucker's that I've heard are really weak because people just keep making arguments against civil disobedience, which they wouldn't make any of those procedural arguments if they thought the cause was noble but that is generally their focus.  I'm deeply uncomfortable with the ease with which I hear people make arguments against civil disobedience.

A lot of the first principles in the case aren't even being discussed except by the truckers. I don't think most people are used to actually considering any of these first principles in political debates, because we are so used to saying things like "well you make your choice and I'll make mine" and just agree to disagree.

I don't think it is unique to the truckers, but also the arguments about public school curriculum and censorship where we have issues that require some consensus or a decision about what is the right thing for everyone in society the only people making first principles arguments are people on the right.  I don't agree with them, but it is a losing battle to constantly dismiss their first principles and not clash with them on those and instead try to mock or retreat to other more practical or procedural arguments because at some point the first principles should be sorted out and the more open that debate the better.

I kind of disagree to an extent. There is, at times, a fine line between speech and conduct. But free expression can be subject to reasonable time, place, and manner restrictions. The only thing in this whole ordeal I ever cared about was the blocking of the Ambassador Bridge, because a quarter of all trade between the US and Canada flows through that port. That's a real dick move, considering all the issues our economy is already facing (supply chains, inflation, etc.). So, from my perspective, we do not even need to consider the content of the speech in order to condemn the conduct. And I disagree with your supposition that I would feel differently about that if I agreed with the truckers' cause(s). But I probably am looking at this through more of a First Amendment lens than a civil disobedience lens. You may say the foregoing is an argument against civil disobedience, but I simply disagree.

As to first principles: I'm a parent; I haven't got the luxury of principles (jk, just slipping in a quick The Patriot reference). In all seriousness, I am bored and tired of the arguments involved here. It started as a rebuke of Canadian policy as it relates to the vax status of truckers. Then it morphed into an all-encompassing protest against Canadian Covid policies. For one, this isn't really our battle to fight, but to the extent Canadian issues overlap with our domestic ones, I think minds were made up long ago. But also, it's really difficult to pin down exactly which "first principles" are involved, here. You could probably ask 10 different demonstrators who were gathered in Ottawa 10 days ago and receive 10 different answers.



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Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: MAGA
« Reply #5616 on: February 19, 2022, 01:50:47 PM »
I listened to a little bit of left-right-center and I think a lot of the arguments against the trucker's that I've heard are really weak because people just keep making arguments against civil disobedience, which they wouldn't make any of those procedural arguments if they thought the cause was noble but that is generally their focus.  I'm deeply uncomfortable with the ease with which I hear people make arguments against civil disobedience.

A lot of the first principles in the case aren't even being discussed except by the truckers. I don't think most people are used to actually considering any of these first principles in political debates, because we are so used to saying things like "well you make your choice and I'll make mine" and just agree to disagree.

I don't think it is unique to the truckers, but also the arguments about public school curriculum and censorship where we have issues that require some consensus or a decision about what is the right thing for everyone in society the only people making first principles arguments are people on the right.  I don't agree with them, but it is a losing battle to constantly dismiss their first principles and not clash with them on those and instead try to mock or retreat to other more practical or procedural arguments because at some point the first principles should be sorted out and the more open that debate the better.

I kind of disagree to an extent. There is, at times, a fine line between speech and conduct. But free expression can be subject to reasonable time, place, and manner restrictions. The only thing in this whole ordeal I ever cared about was the blocking of the Ambassador Bridge, because a quarter of all trade between the US and Canada flows through that port. That's a real dick move, considering all the issues our economy is already facing (supply chains, inflation, etc.). So, from my perspective, we do not even need to consider the content of the speech in order to condemn the conduct. And I disagree with your supposition that I would feel differently about that if I agreed with the truckers' cause(s). But I probably am looking at this through more of a First Amendment lens than a civil disobedience lens. You may say the foregoing is an argument against civil disobedience, but I simply disagree.

As to first principles: I'm a parent; I haven't got the luxury of principles (jk, just slipping in a quick The Patriot reference). In all seriousness, I am bored and tired of the arguments involved here. It started as a rebuke of Canadian policy as it relates to the vax status of truckers. Then it morphed into an all-encompassing protest against Canadian Covid policies. For one, this isn't really our battle to fight, but to the extent Canadian issues overlap with our domestic ones, I think minds were made up long ago. But also, it's really difficult to pin down exactly which "first principles" are involved, here. You could probably ask 10 different demonstrators who were gathered in Ottawa 10 days ago and receive 10 different answers.

All 10 answers would be awful, though, so they do have some common ground.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: MAGA
« Reply #5617 on: February 19, 2022, 03:24:26 PM »
I listened to a little bit of left-right-center and I think a lot of the arguments against the trucker's that I've heard are really weak because people just keep making arguments against civil disobedience, which they wouldn't make any of those procedural arguments if they thought the cause was noble but that is generally their focus.  I'm deeply uncomfortable with the ease with which I hear people make arguments against civil disobedience.

A lot of the first principles in the case aren't even being discussed except by the truckers. I don't think most people are used to actually considering any of these first principles in political debates, because we are so used to saying things like "well you make your choice and I'll make mine" and just agree to disagree.

I don't think it is unique to the truckers, but also the arguments about public school curriculum and censorship where we have issues that require some consensus or a decision about what is the right thing for everyone in society the only people making first principles arguments are people on the right.  I don't agree with them, but it is a losing battle to constantly dismiss their first principles and not clash with them on those and instead try to mock or retreat to other more practical or procedural arguments because at some point the first principles should be sorted out and the more open that debate the better.

I kind of disagree to an extent. There is, at times, a fine line between speech and conduct. But free expression can be subject to reasonable time, place, and manner restrictions. The only thing in this whole ordeal I ever cared about was the blocking of the Ambassador Bridge, because a quarter of all trade between the US and Canada flows through that port. That's a real dick move, considering all the issues our economy is already facing (supply chains, inflation, etc.). So, from my perspective, we do not even need to consider the content of the speech in order to condemn the conduct. And I disagree with your supposition that I would feel differently about that if I agreed with the truckers' cause(s). But I probably am looking at this through more of a First Amendment lens than a civil disobedience lens. You may say the foregoing is an argument against civil disobedience, but I simply disagree.

As to first principles: I'm a parent; I haven't got the luxury of principles (jk, just slipping in a quick The Patriot reference). In all seriousness, I am bored and tired of the arguments involved here. It started as a rebuke of Canadian policy as it relates to the vax status of truckers. Then it morphed into an all-encompassing protest against Canadian Covid policies. For one, this isn't really our battle to fight, but to the extent Canadian issues overlap with our domestic ones, I think minds were made up long ago. But also, it's really difficult to pin down exactly which "first principles" are involved, here. You could probably ask 10 different demonstrators who were gathered in Ottawa 10 days ago and receive 10 different answers.
I think first amendment and civil disobedience are different but tangentially related.

I should be clear the thing that I have heard multiple times (but was on LRC) is along the lines of yours but is “well this is having economic impacts, this is affecting peoples lives, it should not be allowed.”  Any strike or boycott or protest has real, quantifiable economic costs and I think you are on really shaky ground if your hope is to head off any discussion by ceding ground to the point that you are just arguing tactics. I’m sure there were some decent people laid off or at least inconvenienced by all manner of strike actions or boycotts in the past but they are well within the range of reasonable collective actions citizens can take to protest their government. I really don’t like the fact that people are saying this is beyond the pale.

As for the first principles, while I share disdain for the argument that individual bodily autonomy is a good or effective argument against vaccination or that the government is trying to turn Canadians gay or implant microchips in them or this is the first step toward a matrix style bio-fascist regime, I think it is worth making the case that collective action to promote public health trumps individual rights and to be emphatic that a vaccine should be strongly enforced. Very few people are willing to make that case and it is too bad because I think that this frame between individual rights, “liberty” and “freedom” as a stalking horse for all kinds of other interests is being tested here and I think it is better to confront things head on than to try to avoid them.

Offline Spracne

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Re: MAGA
« Reply #5618 on: February 19, 2022, 03:29:21 PM »
I listened to a little bit of left-right-center and I think a lot of the arguments against the trucker's that I've heard are really weak because people just keep making arguments against civil disobedience, which they wouldn't make any of those procedural arguments if they thought the cause was noble but that is generally their focus.  I'm deeply uncomfortable with the ease with which I hear people make arguments against civil disobedience.

A lot of the first principles in the case aren't even being discussed except by the truckers. I don't think most people are used to actually considering any of these first principles in political debates, because we are so used to saying things like "well you make your choice and I'll make mine" and just agree to disagree.

I don't think it is unique to the truckers, but also the arguments about public school curriculum and censorship where we have issues that require some consensus or a decision about what is the right thing for everyone in society the only people making first principles arguments are people on the right.  I don't agree with them, but it is a losing battle to constantly dismiss their first principles and not clash with them on those and instead try to mock or retreat to other more practical or procedural arguments because at some point the first principles should be sorted out and the more open that debate the better.

I kind of disagree to an extent. There is, at times, a fine line between speech and conduct. But free expression can be subject to reasonable time, place, and manner restrictions. The only thing in this whole ordeal I ever cared about was the blocking of the Ambassador Bridge, because a quarter of all trade between the US and Canada flows through that port. That's a real dick move, considering all the issues our economy is already facing (supply chains, inflation, etc.). So, from my perspective, we do not even need to consider the content of the speech in order to condemn the conduct. And I disagree with your supposition that I would feel differently about that if I agreed with the truckers' cause(s). But I probably am looking at this through more of a First Amendment lens than a civil disobedience lens. You may say the foregoing is an argument against civil disobedience, but I simply disagree.

As to first principles: I'm a parent; I haven't got the luxury of principles (jk, just slipping in a quick The Patriot reference). In all seriousness, I am bored and tired of the arguments involved here. It started as a rebuke of Canadian policy as it relates to the vax status of truckers. Then it morphed into an all-encompassing protest against Canadian Covid policies. For one, this isn't really our battle to fight, but to the extent Canadian issues overlap with our domestic ones, I think minds were made up long ago. But also, it's really difficult to pin down exactly which "first principles" are involved, here. You could probably ask 10 different demonstrators who were gathered in Ottawa 10 days ago and receive 10 different answers.
I think first amendment and civil disobedience are different but tangentially related.

I should be clear the thing that I have heard multiple times (but was on LRC) is along the lines of yours but is “well this is having economic impacts, this is affecting peoples lives, it should not be allowed.”  Any strike or boycott or protest has real, quantifiable economic costs and I think you are on really shaky ground if your hope is to head off any discussion by ceding ground to the point that you are just arguing tactics. I’m sure there were some decent people laid off or at least inconvenienced by all manner of strike actions or boycotts in the past but they are well within the range of reasonable collective actions citizens can take to protest their government. I really don’t like the fact that people are saying this is beyond the pale.

As for the first principles, while I share disdain for the argument that individual bodily autonomy is a good or effective argument against vaccination or that the government is trying to turn Canadians gay or implant microchips in them or this is the first step toward a matrix style bio-fascist regime, I think it is worth making the case that collective action to promote public health trumps individual rights and to be emphatic that a vaccine should be strongly enforced. Very few people are willing to make that case and it is too bad because I think that this frame between individual rights, “liberty” and “freedom” as a stalking horse for all kinds of other interests is being tested here and I think it is better to confront things head on than to try to avoid them.

I need to mull this over, but there's a 1/6 parallel lurking somewhere in here.
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Offline Kat Kid

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Re: MAGA
« Reply #5619 on: February 19, 2022, 08:16:39 PM »
I agree, It is extremely frustrating to see all the cool direct action ideas emerging from brain poisoned boomers and their followers.

Offline BIG APPLE CAT

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Re: MAGA
« Reply #5620 on: February 19, 2022, 09:31:53 PM »
Just curious KK do you put any weight or merit in the fact that these people are using their professions as a means of creating discomfort in the hopes to bring about (what they consider) meaningful change? It’s one thing to sit-in at a diner but if the folks at the power company decided they disagree with Biden and so to protest they are going to shut down the grid…

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: MAGA
« Reply #5621 on: February 19, 2022, 11:29:35 PM »
The most extreme version is of course Matt Yglesias' insane take that THE UNITED STATES should send in tanks to Canada to clear the protestors out because they are interfering with global capitalism.

As batshit crazy as this is, I respect his consistency because my biggest issue with all of this is the inconsistency in which these protesters are being dealt with by right wing American politicians.

Offline LickNeckey

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Re: MAGA
« Reply #5622 on: February 20, 2022, 04:35:07 PM »
Fidel Trudeau and his right hand henchwoman are invoking permanent emergency powers. 

Thank goodness Canada lives under the soft cozy blanket of US military might. 

Absolutely terrified of some truckers.

FYI for those of you that aren't plugged in to the conspiracy scene, maga nation thinks Trudeau is the secret bastard son of Fidel Castro

omg

Offline Sandstone Outcropping

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Re: MAGA
« Reply #5623 on: February 21, 2022, 10:24:43 AM »
Candace is developing an antivaxx "documentary."  Got to give her very high marks for grifting skill and knowing her MAQA audience. I don't think there is any question she is Elite 8 if not Final 4 capable.


Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: MAGA
« Reply #5624 on: February 21, 2022, 10:38:39 AM »
yeah, she is going to grift some maga faces off