Author Topic: Stuck In The Middle With You (Common Ground Thread)  (Read 43796 times)

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Offline LickNeckey

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Re: Stuck In The Middle With You (Common Ground Thread)
« Reply #475 on: February 05, 2025, 05:08:32 PM »
Take it to common ground fellas

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Re: Stuck In The Middle With You (Common Ground Thread)
« Reply #476 on: February 05, 2025, 07:09:23 PM »
Thank H&R Block and TurboTax, specifically. The IRS did create a program called Direct File that Republicans are dead set on ending. The only reason I can think to want to end it is if you are paid by those two companies - it is universally a good thing for taxpayers.

Also you're not going to jail for your taxes.
Capone did

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Re: Stuck In The Middle With You (Common Ground Thread)
« Reply #478 on: February 06, 2025, 06:52:52 AM »
https://youtube.com/shorts/aZnxHjhtODw
At first I was like “oh baby Jesus and allah help me to not cringe to death at bleach blond maga girls,” but what a delightful turn of events.  This was a very hopeful and heartwarming surprise. Thank you for posting

(Unless I missed something and I am misunderstanding :sad: )

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Re: Stuck In The Middle With You (Common Ground Thread)
« Reply #479 on: February 06, 2025, 07:05:53 AM »
I want to continue to strive to be aggressively bi-partisan.  I want to be someone who makes exhaustive, doggedly persistent attempts to NOT demonize the other side.  I fail at this a lot, but that is my stated goal.

Maybe someday we will really get a third party that better represents the average human. I would like that very much.

Offline LickNeckey

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Re: Stuck In The Middle With You (Common Ground Thread)
« Reply #480 on: February 06, 2025, 07:11:44 AM »
we must de-tribalize

rank choice voting is the clearest path

Offline hjfklmor

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Re: Stuck In The Middle With You (Common Ground Thread)
« Reply #481 on: February 06, 2025, 08:53:44 AM »
Thank H&R Block and TurboTax, specifically. The IRS did create a program called Direct File that Republicans are dead set on ending. The only reason I can think to want to end it is if you are paid by those two companies - it is universally a good thing for taxpayers.

Also you're not going to jail for your taxes.
Capone did

Capone didn't guess wrong. He didn't guess at all.

Offline Justwin

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Re: Stuck In The Middle With You (Common Ground Thread)
« Reply #482 on: February 06, 2025, 09:05:18 AM »
Thank H&R Block and TurboTax, specifically. The IRS did create a program called Direct File that Republicans are dead set on ending. The only reason I can think to want to end it is if you are paid by those two companies - it is universally a good thing for taxpayers.

Also you're not going to jail for your taxes.

There a tons of example of R's doing the bidding of corporations, but this one is baffling. One, there is already a free option even through these companies. They won't advertise it much, but it's there. It has always made way more sense for the IRS to just do it, which they did. No company involved, just file the taxes owed for free directly with the organization in charge of determining and collecting. Republicans, "nope, you have to use a corporation". It's the dumbest thing ever and they get pass after pass for doing crap like this.

Why wasn't this just included in the Inflation Reduction Act?

Offline Justwin

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Re: Stuck In The Middle With You (Common Ground Thread)
« Reply #483 on: February 06, 2025, 09:08:25 AM »
Thank H&R Block and TurboTax, specifically. The IRS did create a program called Direct File that Republicans are dead set on ending. The only reason I can think to want to end it is if you are paid by those two companies - it is universally a good thing for taxpayers.

Also you're not going to jail for your taxes.

There a tons of example of R's doing the bidding of corporations, but this one is baffling. One, there is already a free option even through these companies. They won't advertise it much, but it's there. It has always made way more sense for the IRS to just do it, which they did. No company involved, just file the taxes owed for free directly with the organization in charge of determining and collecting. Republicans, "nope, you have to use a corporation". It's the dumbest thing ever and they get pass after pass for doing crap like this.

Why wasn't this just included in the Inflation Reduction Act?

I went and looked it up and it looks like the Direct File pilot was a part of the IRA. Definitely a good thing from that act!

Offline LickNeckey

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Re: Stuck In The Middle With You (Common Ground Thread)
« Reply #484 on: February 06, 2025, 10:51:13 AM »

Offline DQ12

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Re: Stuck In The Middle With You (Common Ground Thread)
« Reply #485 on: February 06, 2025, 11:05:32 AM »
we must de-tribalize

rank choice voting is the clearest path
I don't love the idea of ranked choice voting because it adds an unnecessary game-theory aspect to voting which could result in some really wacky scenarios. 

I'd love the idea of a more diverse menu of realistic voting options, but I'm not convinced ranked-choice is the best avenue for that.


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Re: Stuck In The Middle With You (Common Ground Thread)
« Reply #486 on: February 06, 2025, 11:19:13 AM »
we must de-tribalize

rank choice voting is the clearest path
I don't love the idea of ranked choice voting because it adds an unnecessary game-theory aspect to voting which could result in some really wacky scenarios. 

I'd love the idea of a more diverse menu of realistic voting options, but I'm not convinced ranked-choice is the best avenue for that.
Yeah I don't fully understand parliamentary governments but having a boatload of parties seems better on the surface

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Re: Stuck In The Middle With You (Common Ground Thread)
« Reply #487 on: February 06, 2025, 11:19:25 AM »
we must de-tribalize

rank choice voting is the clearest path
I don't love the idea of ranked choice voting because it adds an unnecessary game-theory aspect to voting which could result in some really wacky scenarios.

I'd love the idea of a more diverse menu of realistic voting options, but I'm not convinced ranked-choice is the best avenue for that.

what do you mean by this? if you want your vote to be counted to only one candidate you are allowed to rank that candidate 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. to the exclusion of all others.

Offline cfbandyman

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Re: Stuck In The Middle With You (Common Ground Thread)
« Reply #488 on: February 06, 2025, 11:22:37 AM »
we must de-tribalize

rank choice voting is the clearest path
I don't love the idea of ranked choice voting because it adds an unnecessary game-theory aspect to voting which could result in some really wacky scenarios.

I'd love the idea of a more diverse menu of realistic voting options, but I'm not convinced ranked-choice is the best avenue for that.

what do you mean by this? if you want your vote to be counted to only one candidate you are allowed to rank that candidate 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. to the exclusion of all others.

Rank choice IMO is the easiest way in the current system we have to allow for viable 3rd party people to break into the mainstream
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Offline LickNeckey

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Re: Stuck In The Middle With You (Common Ground Thread)
« Reply #489 on: February 06, 2025, 11:24:48 AM »
the aspect of rank choice that i enjoy is the moderating value it can have on positions and politicians

rather than just appealing to a motivated core of voters being a reasonable balanced person has values

being a single issue candidate is not a productive path to govern

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Re: Stuck In The Middle With You (Common Ground Thread)
« Reply #490 on: February 06, 2025, 11:26:10 AM »
we must de-tribalize

rank choice voting is the clearest path
I don't love the idea of ranked choice voting because it adds an unnecessary game-theory aspect to voting which could result in some really wacky scenarios.

I'd love the idea of a more diverse menu of realistic voting options, but I'm not convinced ranked-choice is the best avenue for that.

what do you mean by this? if you want your vote to be counted to only one candidate you are allowed to rank that candidate 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. to the exclusion of all others.

Rank choice IMO is the easiest way in the current system we have to allow for viable 3rd party people to break into the mainstream

oh i agree completely! I was just asking DQ to clarify what he means by adding a game theory aspect, since if you would prefer for your vote to go to one and only one candidate, then you can do that.

Offline cfbandyman

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Re: Stuck In The Middle With You (Common Ground Thread)
« Reply #491 on: February 06, 2025, 11:38:33 AM »
we must de-tribalize

rank choice voting is the clearest path
I don't love the idea of ranked choice voting because it adds an unnecessary game-theory aspect to voting which could result in some really wacky scenarios. 

I'd love the idea of a more diverse menu of realistic voting options, but I'm not convinced ranked-choice is the best avenue for that.
Yeah I don't fully understand parliamentary governments but having a boatload of parties seems better on the surface

Having spent so much time in Canada, what makes 3rd parties "work" in a parliamentary system is the fact that you can make any MP election inherently be very "local" cause it is.

However to make a "government" work you essentially have to caucus with other like minded parties or give them concessions (not a bad thing) to make a PM be able to hold the confidence of the parliament. In practice it doesn't really do much more than still break down to a two party system, you just though I guess can be more true to yourself and go be a Green or NDP, or Quebecois, or whatever but the Liberals and Conservatives ultimately have an overall plurality. So I guess you gotta ask yourself if that's worth it to have more voices, that are truly under something that is not "D" or "R" but ultimately would support a "D" or "R" cause.

Like both parties kinda already do this, they sort of become more expedient to it by just coopting it. You have progressive wings of the democrats, you have more moderate tones of the republicans.

Ultimately how a parliamentary government works (in the Westminster tradition) is if you had just the house and the senate (and the senate basically becomes an advisory board). The house basically holds most of the power, the speaker of the house is the equivalent of the PM. The PM is the "president" who then uses the parliament to fill out all the cabinet positions and whatnot. They can even dissolve it and call for new elections, buuuuut, of course that can spectacularly backfire as then you can immediately redress the government right there. It's kinda a fun system. There is a reason it's been used for so long, and you can really see it's influence on ours. You can tell the founders tried to mimic it a lot, and definitely thought it was going to run the show, and the executive would just have some power and play along. I think had the founders knew the king/queen of the UK would become a figure head and the president would hold all this power they'd just done a parliament.

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Offline DQ12

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Re: Stuck In The Middle With You (Common Ground Thread)
« Reply #492 on: February 06, 2025, 11:42:04 AM »
we must de-tribalize

rank choice voting is the clearest path
I don't love the idea of ranked choice voting because it adds an unnecessary game-theory aspect to voting which could result in some really wacky scenarios.

I'd love the idea of a more diverse menu of realistic voting options, but I'm not convinced ranked-choice is the best avenue for that.

what do you mean by this? if you want your vote to be counted to only one candidate you are allowed to rank that candidate 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. to the exclusion of all others.

Rank choice IMO is the easiest way in the current system we have to allow for viable 3rd party people to break into the mainstream

oh i agree completely! I was just asking DQ to clarify what he means by adding a game theory aspect, since if you would prefer for your vote to go to one and only one candidate, then you can do that.
That's fair.  Though I think, from a practical and game theory perspective, you wouldn't really want to give anyone other than your preferred candidate any of your votes.  I can definitely be swayed on this.

I'm just trying to imagine a scenario in prior elections where ranked choice would have made a difference in a way that just running as a third party wouldn't have.  Maybe a good example is with Bernie in '16, where you'd have had significant portions on both sides of the divide going Trump/Hillary 1, Bernie 2.  But ranked choice just feels like watering down your vote and forcing people to ask the question "do i want to throw any of my voting power to this other candidate who I also hope loses?"

i just think voting right now is very simple, and ranked choice complicates it in a way that I'm not sure would change anything.  but again, i'm not married to this.


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Offline catastrophe

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Re: Stuck In The Middle With You (Common Ground Thread)
« Reply #493 on: February 06, 2025, 11:50:36 AM »
I think I like ranked choice voting, but if we can't agree to just move to a nationwide popular vote to decide the POTUS, then it's not even worth thinking about IYAM.

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Re: Stuck In The Middle With You (Common Ground Thread)
« Reply #494 on: February 06, 2025, 11:53:32 AM »
we must de-tribalize

rank choice voting is the clearest path
I don't love the idea of ranked choice voting because it adds an unnecessary game-theory aspect to voting which could result in some really wacky scenarios.

I'd love the idea of a more diverse menu of realistic voting options, but I'm not convinced ranked-choice is the best avenue for that.

what do you mean by this? if you want your vote to be counted to only one candidate you are allowed to rank that candidate 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. to the exclusion of all others.

Rank choice IMO is the easiest way in the current system we have to allow for viable 3rd party people to break into the mainstream

oh i agree completely! I was just asking DQ to clarify what he means by adding a game theory aspect, since if you would prefer for your vote to go to one and only one candidate, then you can do that.
That's fair.  Though I think, from a practical and game theory perspective, you wouldn't really want to give anyone other than your preferred candidate any of your votes.  I can definitely be swayed on this.

I'm just trying to imagine a scenario in prior elections where ranked choice would have made a difference in a way that just running as a third party wouldn't have.  Maybe a good example is with Bernie in '16, where you'd have had significant portions on both sides of the divide going Trump/Hillary 1, Bernie 2.  But ranked choice just feels like watering down your vote and forcing people to ask the question "do i want to throw any of my voting power to this other candidate who I also hope loses?"

i just think voting right now is very simple, and ranked choice complicates it in a way that I'm not sure would change anything.  but again, i'm not married to this.

hm, i'm not sure. I mean i suppose that's part of the beauty of ranked choice voting...if your top choice gets the majority of top choice votes, then the subsequent ranked choices don't matter. which makes sense! if the majority of people vote for candidate A then candidate A should win. and if you don't want to cast your lot in with any other candidate then you don't have to, the choice is yours! In theory, if everyone shared your preference to just pick A or B, then ranked choice voting would still do that.


Offline LickNeckey

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Re: Stuck In The Middle With You (Common Ground Thread)
« Reply #495 on: February 06, 2025, 11:56:36 AM »
we must de-tribalize

rank choice voting is the clearest path
I don't love the idea of ranked choice voting because it adds an unnecessary game-theory aspect to voting which could result in some really wacky scenarios.

I'd love the idea of a more diverse menu of realistic voting options, but I'm not convinced ranked-choice is the best avenue for that.

what do you mean by this? if you want your vote to be counted to only one candidate you are allowed to rank that candidate 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. to the exclusion of all others.

Rank choice IMO is the easiest way in the current system we have to allow for viable 3rd party people to break into the mainstream

oh i agree completely! I was just asking DQ to clarify what he means by adding a game theory aspect, since if you would prefer for your vote to go to one and only one candidate, then you can do that.
That's fair.  Though I think, from a practical and game theory perspective, you wouldn't really want to give anyone other than your preferred candidate any of your votes.  I can definitely be swayed on this.

I'm just trying to imagine a scenario in prior elections where ranked choice would have made a difference in a way that just running as a third party wouldn't have.  Maybe a good example is with Bernie in '16, where you'd have had significant portions on both sides of the divide going Trump/Hillary 1, Bernie 2.  But ranked choice just feels like watering down your vote and forcing people to ask the question "do i want to throw any of my voting power to this other candidate who I also hope loses?"

i just think voting right now is very simple, and ranked choice complicates it in a way that I'm not sure would change anything.  but again, i'm not married to this.

part of my thought process is that our candidate offerings would be fundamentally different in rank choice format

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Re: Stuck In The Middle With You (Common Ground Thread)
« Reply #496 on: February 06, 2025, 11:59:57 AM »
I think I like ranked choice voting, but if we can't agree to just move to a nationwide popular vote to decide the POTUS, then it's not even worth thinking about IYAM.

yeah...i suppose it stands to reason that ranked choice voting would necessitate the electoral college go away. unless i guess the electoral college all did like nebraska (well, used to. i think nebraska just did away with it)  and distributed their electoral college votes proportionately

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Stuck In The Middle With You (Common Ground Thread)
« Reply #497 on: February 06, 2025, 02:32:22 PM »
we must de-tribalize

rank choice voting is the clearest path
I don't love the idea of ranked choice voting because it adds an unnecessary game-theory aspect to voting which could result in some really wacky scenarios.

I'd love the idea of a more diverse menu of realistic voting options, but I'm not convinced ranked-choice is the best avenue for that.

what do you mean by this? if you want your vote to be counted to only one candidate you are allowed to rank that candidate 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. to the exclusion of all others.

Rank choice IMO is the easiest way in the current system we have to allow for viable 3rd party people to break into the mainstream

The republican think tanks are starting to roll out banning of ranked choice voting, even in local elections. In states with republican govs, or veto proof state senates, you'll start to see this in the next two years. It was already introduced in Iowa, this year, which means it will be prioritized next year. In Iowa the state house and senate are only in session four days a week, from January-April, so it generally takes a bill two sessions to get through.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Stuck In The Middle With You (Common Ground Thread)
« Reply #498 on: February 06, 2025, 02:34:18 PM »
Thank H&R Block and TurboTax, specifically. The IRS did create a program called Direct File that Republicans are dead set on ending. The only reason I can think to want to end it is if you are paid by those two companies - it is universally a good thing for taxpayers.

Also you're not going to jail for your taxes.

There a tons of example of R's doing the bidding of corporations, but this one is baffling. One, there is already a free option even through these companies. They won't advertise it much, but it's there. It has always made way more sense for the IRS to just do it, which they did. No company involved, just file the taxes owed for free directly with the organization in charge of determining and collecting. Republicans, "nope, you have to use a corporation". It's the dumbest thing ever and they get pass after pass for doing crap like this.

Direct file and free file, two different programs, are both highly restrictive. If you aren't filing a 1040 ez, it's highly unlikely that you can file either way.

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Re: Stuck In The Middle With You (Common Ground Thread)
« Reply #499 on: February 06, 2025, 02:37:24 PM »
we must de-tribalize

rank choice voting is the clearest path
I don't love the idea of ranked choice voting because it adds an unnecessary game-theory aspect to voting which could result in some really wacky scenarios.

I'd love the idea of a more diverse menu of realistic voting options, but I'm not convinced ranked-choice is the best avenue for that.

what do you mean by this? if you want your vote to be counted to only one candidate you are allowed to rank that candidate 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. to the exclusion of all others.

Rank choice IMO is the easiest way in the current system we have to allow for viable 3rd party people to break into the mainstream

oh i agree completely! I was just asking DQ to clarify what he means by adding a game theory aspect, since if you would prefer for your vote to go to one and only one candidate, then you can do that.
That's fair.  Though I think, from a practical and game theory perspective, you wouldn't really want to give anyone other than your preferred candidate any of your votes.  I can definitely be swayed on this.

I'm just trying to imagine a scenario in prior elections where ranked choice would have made a difference in a way that just running as a third party wouldn't have.  Maybe a good example is with Bernie in '16, where you'd have had significant portions on both sides of the divide going Trump/Hillary 1, Bernie 2.  But ranked choice just feels like watering down your vote and forcing people to ask the question "do i want to throw any of my voting power to this other candidate who I also hope loses?"

i just think voting right now is very simple, and ranked choice complicates it in a way that I'm not sure would change anything.  but again, i'm not married to this.

part of my thought process is that our candidate offerings would be fundamentally different in rank choice format
Yeah, if Ranked Choice kind of got rid of the two-party/primary system as we know it, that would be a good result.  But if not, I'm not sure what difference it would make on a national level.


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