Is it fair for Transgenders to compete in sports as who they think they are? No

[DQ12]

There was a woman drafted in the NBA in 1977.

Technically two if you count Caitlin Jenner!  How about that!

[MakeItRain]

So just to be clear, you believe boys should be able to play volleyball in Iowa? Because 'there cannot be validity to the restrictions of one's rights based on identity?'  By separating girls and boys sports at all isn't that 'restricting one's rights based on identity?'

Why shouldn't they? Who cares? Is this an attempt at a gotcha? I was pretty clear about this.

Just so you know, at least last time I officiated volleyball in Kansas, in 2012, boys were allowed to play volleyball and some did. I didn't recall any outrage. Girls are allowed to and do play football and wrestle in both Iowa and Kansas, no outrage.

Not a gotcha, I just didn't know there were people who would be fine doing away with the tradition of separating girls and boys sports. Crazy.

I had a female teammate on my middle school football team in Garden City in the early 90's and she was pretty good.  Guess what?  Nobody bitched about it.

Nobody cares about girls playing boys sports. Moreover, very few people would care if a trans girl played boys sports.

Now let's take the next step. (and this is the part where MIR is going to tell me to eff off) but ultimately in the scheme of stuff the american public cares about...nobody really cares about women's sports all that much either. But for the thousandth time literally everybody knows this isn't about fair competition in women's sports. Its about erasure of a group of people. Don't get mad at the audience for not falling for your sleight of hand. Get better at sleight of hand or get a new trick. Everybody has already seen this one.

I'm not going to tell you to eff off, it's the fallacy of the save women's sports movement, they don't give a crap about women's sports, if they did it wouldn't need saving.

[_33]

So just to be clear, you believe boys should be able to play volleyball in Iowa? Because 'there cannot be validity to the restrictions of one's rights based on identity?'  By separating girls and boys sports at all isn't that 'restricting one's rights based on identity?'

Why shouldn't they? Who cares? Is this an attempt at a gotcha? I was pretty clear about this.

Just so you know, at least last time I officiated volleyball in Kansas, in 2012, boys were allowed to play volleyball and some did. I didn't recall any outrage. Girls are allowed to and do play football and wrestle in both Iowa and Kansas, no outrage.

Not a gotcha, I just didn't know there were people who would be fine doing away with the tradition of separating girls and boys sports. Crazy.

I had a female teammate on my middle school football team in Garden City in the early 90's and she was pretty good.  Guess what?  Nobody bitched about it.

I did too! (late 90's) Not sure what this has to do with my post though. I mean, you know why girls and boys sports are separated right? Hint: it's not to keep girls off the football team.

Did he not directly address you saying "I just didn't know there were people who would be fine doing away with the tradition of separating girls and boys sports. Crazy."?

I guess you guys don't understand what I'm saying? It's fine, you think I'm a bigoted, ignorant, hate-filled, MAGA redneck. I personally don't think I'm any of those things but alas.

I do agree that the reaction by state legislatures has been disproportionate to the real world occurrences. But at the same time there are many examples of biological males taking away medals and wins in women's sports. And real world examples of women being impacted negatively by that. I don't agree at all that the issue is without nuance or good intentioned people on both sides. That's all.

[michigancat]

But at the same time there are many examples of biological males taking away medals and wins in women's sports.

Many? At the youth/HS level?

And real world examples of women being impacted negatively by that.

How were they negatively impacted?

[Justwin]

So just to be clear, you believe boys should be able to play volleyball in Iowa? Because 'there cannot be validity to the restrictions of one's rights based on identity?'  By separating girls and boys sports at all isn't that 'restricting one's rights based on identity?'

Why shouldn't they? Who cares? Is this an attempt at a gotcha? I was pretty clear about this.

Just so you know, at least last time I officiated volleyball in Kansas, in 2012, boys were allowed to play volleyball and some did. I didn't recall any outrage. Girls are allowed to and do play football and wrestle in both Iowa and Kansas, no outrage.

Not a gotcha, I just didn't know there were people who would be fine doing away with the tradition of separating girls and boys sports. Crazy.

I had a female teammate on my middle school football team in Garden City in the early 90's and she was pretty good.  Guess what?  Nobody bitched about it.

Nobody cares about girls playing boys sports. Moreover, very few people would care if a trans girl played boys sports.

Now let's take the next step. (and this is the part where MIR is going to tell me to eff off) but ultimately in the scheme of stuff the american public cares about...nobody really cares about women's sports all that much either. But for the thousandth time literally everybody knows this isn't about fair competition in women's sports. Its about erasure of a group of people. Don't get mad at the audience for not falling for your sleight of hand. Get better at sleight of hand or get a new trick. Everybody has already seen this one.

I'm not going to tell you to eff off, it's the fallacy of the save women's sports movement, they don't give a crap about women's sports, if they did it wouldn't need saving.

I am not all that worried about women's sports. I do, however, care a great deal about girls sports.

If people don't care about a trans girl playing boys sports, how can you say that this is about erasure? It seems like the fact that people are trans doesn't matter. What matters is a level-playing field in girls sports.

The traditions of girls playing football, wrestling and playing other boys sports are rooted in the tradition that anyone is allowed to play boys sports and only girls (biological females) are allowed to play girls sports.

[Justwin]

But at the same time there are many examples of biological males taking away medals and wins in women's sports.

Many? At the youth/HS level?

As MIR stated, the magic number associated with this issue is 1. And yes, there is at least one instance of biological males taking away medals in girls sports.

[michigancat]

If people don't care about a trans girl playing boys sports, how can you say that this is about erasure? It seems like the fact that people are trans doesn't matter. What matters is a level-playing field in girls sports.

People care so much about trans girls playing boys sports that they're writing laws to say that's the only way trans girls can participate in youth sports.

[Justwin]

If people don't care about a trans girl playing boys sports, how can you say that this is about erasure? It seems like the fact that people are trans doesn't matter. What matters is a level-playing field in girls sports.

People care so much about trans girls playing boys sports that they're writing laws to say that's the only way trans girls can participate in youth sports.

I think I meant to say a trans boy playing boys sports. Nobody cares about that.

[DQ12]

There was a woman drafted in the NBA in 1977.

Technically two if you count Caitlin Jenner!  How about that!

Feels like this got passed over.  What a piece of trivia.

[Dugout DickStone]

There was a woman drafted in the NBA in 1977.

Technically two if you count Caitlin Jenner!  How about that!

Feels like this got passed over.  What a piece of trivia.

oscar jenner was drafted into nba in 1977?

[michigancat]

If people don't care about a trans girl playing boys sports, how can you say that this is about erasure? It seems like the fact that people are trans doesn't matter. What matters is a level-playing field in girls sports.

People care so much about trans girls playing boys sports that they're writing laws to say that's the only way trans girls can participate in youth sports.

I think I meant to say a trans boy playing boys sports. Nobody cares about that.

There a laws banning exactly that!

Luc Esquivel, a 14-year-old rising sophomore who lives in Knoxville, Tennessee, just wants to play golf, but he%u2019s banned from competing on the boys%u2019 golf team at his high school.

In March 2021, Gov. Bill Lee signed legislation, which took effect immediately, that requires student athletes to prove the sex they were assigned at birth, either by providing an %u201Coriginal%u201D birth certificate or another form of evidence if the birth certificate is not available.

https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/nbc-out-proud/transgender-teen-luc-esquivel-suing-tennessee-can-play-golf-rcna28792

[_33]

But at the same time there are many examples of biological males taking away medals and wins in women's sports.

Many? At the youth/HS level?

And real world examples of women being impacted negatively by that.

How were they negatively impacted?

Yeah I would say 'many'? I don't know how you define it though. Maybe 'several' would be better?

Um, they lost instead of winning.

[michigancat]

How were they negatively impacted?

Um, they lost instead of winning.

How would you say that compares to the negative impact of the trans youth banned from participation?


Again, from the Republican governor of Utah who vetoed one of these laws.

? 75,000 high school kids participating in high school sports in Utah.
? 4 transgender kids playing high school sports in Utah.
? 1 transgender student playing girls sports.
? 86% of trans youth reporting suicidality.
? 56% of trans youth having attempted suicide

Four kids and only one of them playing girls sports. That’s what all of this is about. Four kids
who aren’t dominating or winning trophies or taking scholarships. Four kids who are just trying
to find some friends and feel like they are a part of something. Four kids trying to get through
each day. Rarely has so much fear and anger been directed at so few. I don’t understand what
they are going through or why they feel the way they do. But I want them to live. And all the
research shows that even a little acceptance and connection can reduce suicidality significantly.
For that reason, as much as any other, I have taken this action in the hope that we can continue to
work together and find a better way. If a veto override occurs, I hope we can work to find ways
to show these four kids that we love them and they have a place in our state.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1emUTfFEbmNmSdW9UhhsRAseVNr4cPIv9/view

[Justwin]

If people don't care about a trans girl playing boys sports, how can you say that this is about erasure? It seems like the fact that people are trans doesn't matter. What matters is a level-playing field in girls sports.

People care so much about trans girls playing boys sports that they're writing laws to say that's the only way trans girls can participate in youth sports.

I think I meant to say a trans boy playing boys sports. Nobody cares about that.

There a laws banning exactly that!

Luc Esquivel, a 14-year-old rising sophomore who lives in Knoxville, Tennessee, just wants to play golf, but he%u2019s banned from competing on the boys%u2019 golf team at his high school.

In March 2021, Gov. Bill Lee signed legislation, which took effect immediately, that requires student athletes to prove the sex they were assigned at birth, either by providing an %u201Coriginal%u201D birth certificate or another form of evidence if the birth certificate is not available.

https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/nbc-out-proud/transgender-teen-luc-esquivel-suing-tennessee-can-play-golf-rcna28792

That's dumb and I do not agree with that. A trans boy should be allowed to play boys sports.

[Rage Against the McKee]

Trans boys take banned substances to increase testosterone. Trans girls block hormones. It's really not cut and dry either way. Lots of speculation as to what is fair without much data because trans athletes are not very common.

[DQ12]

There was a woman drafted in the NBA in 1977.

Technically two if you count Caitlin Jenner!  How about that!

Feels like this got passed over.  What a piece of trivia.

oscar jenner was drafted into nba in 1977?

By the Kansas City Kings no less!

[Trim]

There was a woman drafted in the NBA in 1977.

Technically two if you count Caitlin Jenner!  How about that!

Feels like this got passed over.  What a piece of trivia.

oscar jenner was drafted into nba in 1977?

By the Kansas City Kings no less!

Jenner was also selected by the Kansas City Kings with the 139th overall pick in the seventh round of the 1977 NBA draft despite not having played basketball since high school.[77] The publicity stunt was executed by team president/general manager Joe Axelson to mock the Kansas City Chiefs' yearly claims that they planned on selecting "the best athlete available" in the National Football League Draft. Jenner was presented with a jersey customized with the number 8618, the Olympic gold medal-winning score, but would never appear as an active player with the Kings.[78]

[Trim]

Wow!

http://www.coronadonewsca.com/news/coronado_sports/the-true-story-of-oscar-jenner-s-brief-nba-career/article_66f24284-4b4e-11e5-a128-a3cade9cef14.html

[_33]

How were they negatively impacted?

Um, they lost instead of winning.

How would you say that compares to the negative impact of the trans youth banned from participation?

I wouldn't presume to say. But telling girls who feel cheated that they need to get over it because if they don't this other person's mental health might suffer seems like a nuanced situation.

[Justwin]

Trans boys take banned substances to increase testosterone. Trans girls block hormones. It's really not cut and dry either way. Lots of speculation as to what is fair without much data because trans athletes are not very common.

Well you shouldn't be allowed to take banned substances. But not being able to participate in that case would be for taking banned substances, not because you are trans. I would say a bill that prohibits trans boys from playing boys sports if they're not taking banned substances is dumb.

[Spracne]

First of all, this needs to be regulated at the collegiate, olympic, and professional levels, if that's what society wants. We don't need governments regulating at the high school and below levels. Someone give me a convincing reason why I'm wrong.

[Rage Against the McKee]

First of all, this needs to be regulated at the collegiate, olympic, and professional levels, if that's what society wants. We don't need governments regulating at the high school and below levels. Someone give me a convincing reason why I'm wrong.

I don't think the government needs to regulate any of this at any level. Let the individual athletic organizations figure it out.

[michigancat]

How were they negatively impacted?

Um, they lost instead of winning.

How would you say that compares to the negative impact of the trans youth banned from participation?

I wouldn't presume to say. But telling girls who feel cheated that they need to get over it because if they don't this other person's mental health might suffer seems like a nuanced situation.

If you think it's a nuanced situation you're presuming quite a bit

[Spracne]

First of all, this needs to be regulated at the collegiate, olympic, and professional levels, if that's what society wants. We don't need governments regulating at the high school and below levels. Someone give me a convincing reason why I'm wrong.

I don't think the government needs to regulate any of this at any level. Let the individual athletic organizations figure it out.

Right. I may have been imprecise. In my first sentence, by "regulated," I meant by the governing bodies of those respective associations. In my second sentence, I used the same base verb to refer to government action, so I understand the confusion.

[bucket]

I get Turnbull and Justwin mixed up a lot and threads like these clear things up.