Is it fair for Transgenders to compete in sports as who they think they are? No

[_33]

So just to be clear, you believe boys should be able to play volleyball in Iowa? Because 'there cannot be validity to the restrictions of one's rights based on identity?'  By separating girls and boys sports at all isn't that 'restricting one's rights based on identity?'

[Justwin]

I have wiggle room on a lot of issues, human rights aren't one of them, it can't be one of them.

Is it a right to play sports?

We live in the United States of America, everything legal is a right. The stance of "it's just sports" is a real easy take for someone who doesn't have a whole lot of people trying to take that away from you. In fact, as a cis white male, I don't believe you have anything to worry about, I'm not aware of a single bill, anywhere in the country, trying to restrict you from anything. Literally every single person participating in this conversation, other than possibly dax, also knows that this prohibition on sports isn't an end point. In Iowa alone, this year, there have been 29 different proposed bills that place some sort of limitation on people who identify as LGBTQ.

Is this similar to how everyone knows that "common sense" gun regulations aren't an end point?

[Justwin]

Chings highlighted this but imo there isn't a lot of nuance for me on this particular issue  (trans rights). One side is being cruel, and their opposition is not being cruel. In fact, they just want to participate in society. Not every issue has valid points on both sides.

This issue, possibly more than most, absolutely has valid points on both sides. Refusing to accept them doesn't change that.

No sir. There may eventually be some validity to some of the body composition conversations, but again there is not and cannot be validity to the restrictions of ones rights based on identity.

If there is some government study that says trans girls have a 63% physical advantage over their peers, I wouldn't care a bit and still would want them to be able to participate in athletics.

Nobody's rights are being restricted. Nobody is eliminating the ability to participate in sports because of how a person identifies.

[OK_Cat]

I have wiggle room on a lot of issues, human rights aren't one of them, it can't be one of them.

Is it a right to play sports?

We live in the United States of America, everything legal is a right. The stance of "it's just sports" is a real easy take for someone who doesn't have a whole lot of people trying to take that away from you. In fact, as a cis white male, I don't believe you have anything to worry about, I'm not aware of a single bill, anywhere in the country, trying to restrict you from anything. Literally every single person participating in this conversation, other than possibly dax, also knows that this prohibition on sports isn't an end point. In Iowa alone, this year, there have been 29 different proposed bills that place some sort of limitation on people who identify as LGBTQ.

Is this similar to how everyone knows that "common sense" gun regulations aren't an end point?

trans girls don't kill people, you miserable $!#*

[Justwin]

I have wiggle room on a lot of issues, human rights aren't one of them, it can't be one of them.

Is it a right to play sports?

We live in the United States of America, everything legal is a right. The stance of "it's just sports" is a real easy take for someone who doesn't have a whole lot of people trying to take that away from you. In fact, as a cis white male, I don't believe you have anything to worry about, I'm not aware of a single bill, anywhere in the country, trying to restrict you from anything. Literally every single person participating in this conversation, other than possibly dax, also knows that this prohibition on sports isn't an end point. In Iowa alone, this year, there have been 29 different proposed bills that place some sort of limitation on people who identify as LGBTQ.

Is this similar to how everyone knows that "common sense" gun regulations aren't an end point?

trans girls don't kill people, you miserable $!#*

What's your point?

[MakeItRain]

So just to be clear, you believe boys should be able to play volleyball in Iowa? Because 'there cannot be validity to the restrictions of one's rights based on identity?'  By separating girls and boys sports at all isn't that 'restricting one's rights based on identity?'

Why shouldn't they? Who cares? Is this an attempt at a gotcha? I was pretty clear about this.

Just so you know, at least last time I officiated volleyball in Kansas, in 2012, boys were allowed to play volleyball and some did. I didn't recall any outrage. Girls are allowed to and do play football and wrestle in both Iowa and Kansas, no outrage.

[OK_Cat]

I have wiggle room on a lot of issues, human rights aren't one of them, it can't be one of them.

Is it a right to play sports?

We live in the United States of America, everything legal is a right. The stance of "it's just sports" is a real easy take for someone who doesn't have a whole lot of people trying to take that away from you. In fact, as a cis white male, I don't believe you have anything to worry about, I'm not aware of a single bill, anywhere in the country, trying to restrict you from anything. Literally every single person participating in this conversation, other than possibly dax, also knows that this prohibition on sports isn't an end point. In Iowa alone, this year, there have been 29 different proposed bills that place some sort of limitation on people who identify as LGBTQ.

Is this similar to how everyone knows that "common sense" gun regulations aren't an end point?

trans girls don't kill people, you miserable $!#*

What's your point?

i feel like i made my point clear, but you have content filtering on to hide the "naughty words."

[MakeItRain]

I have wiggle room on a lot of issues, human rights aren't one of them, it can't be one of them.

Is it a right to play sports?

We live in the United States of America, everything legal is a right. The stance of "it's just sports" is a real easy take for someone who doesn't have a whole lot of people trying to take that away from you. In fact, as a cis white male, I don't believe you have anything to worry about, I'm not aware of a single bill, anywhere in the country, trying to restrict you from anything. Literally every single person participating in this conversation, other than possibly dax, also knows that this prohibition on sports isn't an end point. In Iowa alone, this year, there have been 29 different proposed bills that place some sort of limitation on people who identify as LGBTQ.

Is this similar to how everyone knows that "common sense" gun regulations aren't an end point?

I have no idea, maybe? I can tell you that there isn't a state in the country with 29 current bill proposals that restrict gun ownership. When that happens to gun owners, let's have a chat. When we do have that chat, I'll make the very common sense argument that guns aren't people.

[Justwin]

So just to be clear, you believe boys should be able to play volleyball in Iowa? Because 'there cannot be validity to the restrictions of one's rights based on identity?'  By separating girls and boys sports at all isn't that 'restricting one's rights based on identity?'

Why shouldn't they? Who cares? Is this an attempt at a gotcha? I was pretty clear about this.

Just so you know, at least last time I officiated volleyball in Kansas, in 2012, boys were allowed to play volleyball and some did. I didn't recall any outrage. Girls are allowed to and do play football and wrestle in both Iowa and Kansas, no outrage.

There will very rarely be outrage about girls playing boys sports for obvious reasons.

I do not think boys should be allowed to play girls volleyball, swim on the girls swim teams nor participate in any girls sports.

[MakeItRain]

Chings highlighted this but imo there isn't a lot of nuance for me on this particular issue  (trans rights). One side is being cruel, and their opposition is not being cruel. In fact, they just want to participate in society. Not every issue has valid points on both sides.

This issue, possibly more than most, absolutely has valid points on both sides. Refusing to accept them doesn't change that.

No sir. There may eventually be some validity to some of the body composition conversations, but again there is not and cannot be validity to the restrictions of ones rights based on identity.

If there is some government study that says trans girls have a 63% physical advantage over their peers, I wouldn't care a bit and still would want them to be able to participate in athletics.

Nobody's rights are being restricted. Nobody is eliminating the ability to participate in sports because of how a person identifies.

The conversation I said I wouldn't have because it's not made in good faith, this is that conversation.

[Justwin]

I have wiggle room on a lot of issues, human rights aren't one of them, it can't be one of them.

Is it a right to play sports?

We live in the United States of America, everything legal is a right. The stance of "it's just sports" is a real easy take for someone who doesn't have a whole lot of people trying to take that away from you. In fact, as a cis white male, I don't believe you have anything to worry about, I'm not aware of a single bill, anywhere in the country, trying to restrict you from anything. Literally every single person participating in this conversation, other than possibly dax, also knows that this prohibition on sports isn't an end point. In Iowa alone, this year, there have been 29 different proposed bills that place some sort of limitation on people who identify as LGBTQ.

Is this similar to how everyone knows that "common sense" gun regulations aren't an end point?

I have no idea, maybe? I can tell you that there isn't a state in the country with 29 current bill proposals that restrict gun ownership. When that happens to gun owners, let's have a chat. When we do have that chat, I'll make the very common sense argument that guns aren't people.

Is 29 the magic number? There are lots of bills proposed in states and passed in states that restrict gun ownership in the face of clear Supreme Court decisions.

[MakeItRain]

I have wiggle room on a lot of issues, human rights aren't one of them, it can't be one of them.

Is it a right to play sports?

We live in the United States of America, everything legal is a right. The stance of "it's just sports" is a real easy take for someone who doesn't have a whole lot of people trying to take that away from you. In fact, as a cis white male, I don't believe you have anything to worry about, I'm not aware of a single bill, anywhere in the country, trying to restrict you from anything. Literally every single person participating in this conversation, other than possibly dax, also knows that this prohibition on sports isn't an end point. In Iowa alone, this year, there have been 29 different proposed bills that place some sort of limitation on people who identify as LGBTQ.

Is this similar to how everyone knows that "common sense" gun regulations aren't an end point?

I have no idea, maybe? I can tell you that there isn't a state in the country with 29 current bill proposals that restrict gun ownership. When that happens to gun owners, let's have a chat. When we do have that chat, I'll make the very common sense argument that guns aren't people.

Is 29 the magic number? There are lots of bills proposed in states and passed in states that restrict gun ownership in the face of clear Supreme Court decisions.

I don't know what the "magic number" is for you. I can tell you that when it comes to me and civil rights, the magic number is 1. I'm not going to compare gun rights to civil rights, that's not something I would ever do. I am human enough to not compare bills about limiting metal and gunpowder to those about limiting actual people, in the flesh, that have feelings, emotions, who bleed, and have a finite time on this earth.

[OK_Cat]

I have wiggle room on a lot of issues, human rights aren't one of them, it can't be one of them.

Is it a right to play sports?

We live in the United States of America, everything legal is a right. The stance of "it's just sports" is a real easy take for someone who doesn't have a whole lot of people trying to take that away from you. In fact, as a cis white male, I don't believe you have anything to worry about, I'm not aware of a single bill, anywhere in the country, trying to restrict you from anything. Literally every single person participating in this conversation, other than possibly dax, also knows that this prohibition on sports isn't an end point. In Iowa alone, this year, there have been 29 different proposed bills that place some sort of limitation on people who identify as LGBTQ.

Is this similar to how everyone knows that "common sense" gun regulations aren't an end point?

I have no idea, maybe? I can tell you that there isn't a state in the country with 29 current bill proposals that restrict gun ownership. When that happens to gun owners, let's have a chat. When we do have that chat, I'll make the very common sense argument that guns aren't people.

Is 29 the magic number? There are lots of bills proposed in states and passed in states that restrict gun ownership in the face of clear Supreme Court decisions.

I don't know what the "magic number" is for you. I can tell you that when it comes to me and civil rights, the magic number is 1. I'm not going to compare gun rights to civil rights, that's not something I would ever do. I am human enough to not compare bills about limiting metal and gunpowder to those about limiting actual people, in the flesh, that have feelings, emotions, who bleed, and have a finite time on this earth.

You're being nice, MIR.  You're a smart guy and can read between the lines as well as I can.  The problem is that he doesn't consider trans people to be "real."  That's why he immediately goes to guns, and that's why unfortunately this conversation will never go anywhere.  He's a miserable $!#*.

[Justwin]

I have wiggle room on a lot of issues, human rights aren't one of them, it can't be one of them.

Is it a right to play sports?

We live in the United States of America, everything legal is a right. The stance of "it's just sports" is a real easy take for someone who doesn't have a whole lot of people trying to take that away from you. In fact, as a cis white male, I don't believe you have anything to worry about, I'm not aware of a single bill, anywhere in the country, trying to restrict you from anything. Literally every single person participating in this conversation, other than possibly dax, also knows that this prohibition on sports isn't an end point. In Iowa alone, this year, there have been 29 different proposed bills that place some sort of limitation on people who identify as LGBTQ.

Is this similar to how everyone knows that "common sense" gun regulations aren't an end point?

I have no idea, maybe? I can tell you that there isn't a state in the country with 29 current bill proposals that restrict gun ownership. When that happens to gun owners, let's have a chat. When we do have that chat, I'll make the very common sense argument that guns aren't people.

Is 29 the magic number? There are lots of bills proposed in states and passed in states that restrict gun ownership in the face of clear Supreme Court decisions.

I don't know what the "magic number" is for you. I can tell you that when it comes to me and civil rights, the magic number is 1. I'm not going to compare gun rights to civil rights, that's not something I would ever do. I am human enough to not compare bills about limiting metal and gunpowder to those about limiting actual people, in the flesh, that have feelings, emotions, who bleed, and have a finite time on this earth.

I agree that the magic number is 1.

[MakeItRain]

I have wiggle room on a lot of issues, human rights aren't one of them, it can't be one of them.

Is it a right to play sports?

We live in the United States of America, everything legal is a right. The stance of "it's just sports" is a real easy take for someone who doesn't have a whole lot of people trying to take that away from you. In fact, as a cis white male, I don't believe you have anything to worry about, I'm not aware of a single bill, anywhere in the country, trying to restrict you from anything. Literally every single person participating in this conversation, other than possibly dax, also knows that this prohibition on sports isn't an end point. In Iowa alone, this year, there have been 29 different proposed bills that place some sort of limitation on people who identify as LGBTQ.

Is this similar to how everyone knows that "common sense" gun regulations aren't an end point?

I have no idea, maybe? I can tell you that there isn't a state in the country with 29 current bill proposals that restrict gun ownership. When that happens to gun owners, let's have a chat. When we do have that chat, I'll make the very common sense argument that guns aren't people.

Is 29 the magic number? There are lots of bills proposed in states and passed in states that restrict gun ownership in the face of clear Supreme Court decisions.

I don't know what the "magic number" is for you. I can tell you that when it comes to me and civil rights, the magic number is 1. I'm not going to compare gun rights to civil rights, that's not something I would ever do. I am human enough to not compare bills about limiting metal and gunpowder to those about limiting actual people, in the flesh, that have feelings, emotions, who bleed, and have a finite time on this earth.

I agree that the magic number is 1.

Congrats. Now tell us why you're equating people with a piece of metal. When you're doing that make sure you don't switch your illustration up and start talking about the rights of gun owners.

[_33]

So just to be clear, you believe boys should be able to play volleyball in Iowa? Because 'there cannot be validity to the restrictions of one's rights based on identity?'  By separating girls and boys sports at all isn't that 'restricting one's rights based on identity?'

Why shouldn't they? Who cares? Is this an attempt at a gotcha? I was pretty clear about this.

Just so you know, at least last time I officiated volleyball in Kansas, in 2012, boys were allowed to play volleyball and some did. I didn't recall any outrage. Girls are allowed to and do play football and wrestle in both Iowa and Kansas, no outrage.

Not a gotcha, I just didn't know there were people who would be fine doing away with the tradition of separating girls and boys sports. Crazy.

[OK_Cat]

So just to be clear, you believe boys should be able to play volleyball in Iowa? Because 'there cannot be validity to the restrictions of one's rights based on identity?'  By separating girls and boys sports at all isn't that 'restricting one's rights based on identity?'

Why shouldn't they? Who cares? Is this an attempt at a gotcha? I was pretty clear about this.

Just so you know, at least last time I officiated volleyball in Kansas, in 2012, boys were allowed to play volleyball and some did. I didn't recall any outrage. Girls are allowed to and do play football and wrestle in both Iowa and Kansas, no outrage.

Not a gotcha, I just didn't know there were people who would be fine doing away with the tradition of separating girls and boys sports. Crazy.

I had a female teammate on my middle school football team in Garden City in the early 90's and she was pretty good.  Guess what?  Nobody bitched about it.

[BIG APPLE CAT]

I have wiggle room on a lot of issues, human rights aren't one of them, it can't be one of them.

Is it a right to play sports?

We live in the United States of America, everything legal is a right. The stance of "it's just sports" is a real easy take for someone who doesn't have a whole lot of people trying to take that away from you. In fact, as a cis white male, I don't believe you have anything to worry about, I'm not aware of a single bill, anywhere in the country, trying to restrict you from anything. Literally every single person participating in this conversation, other than possibly dax, also knows that this prohibition on sports isn't an end point. In Iowa alone, this year, there have been 29 different proposed bills that place some sort of limitation on people who identify as LGBTQ.

Is this similar to how everyone knows that "common sense" gun regulations aren't an end point?

I have no idea, maybe? I can tell you that there isn't a state in the country with 29 current bill proposals that restrict gun ownership. When that happens to gun owners, let's have a chat. When we do have that chat, I'll make the very common sense argument that guns aren't people.

Is 29 the magic number? There are lots of bills proposed in states and passed in states that restrict gun ownership in the face of clear Supreme Court decisions.

SCOTUS has said remarkably little regarding the 2nd amendment since the history of always. It's actually kind of amazing how little they've had to say on it considering it's in the top 10 of the amendments (not 100% sure but i believe it was the 2nd one)

[Justwin]

So just to be clear, you believe boys should be able to play volleyball in Iowa? Because 'there cannot be validity to the restrictions of one's rights based on identity?'  By separating girls and boys sports at all isn't that 'restricting one's rights based on identity?'

Why shouldn't they? Who cares? Is this an attempt at a gotcha? I was pretty clear about this.

Just so you know, at least last time I officiated volleyball in Kansas, in 2012, boys were allowed to play volleyball and some did. I didn't recall any outrage. Girls are allowed to and do play football and wrestle in both Iowa and Kansas, no outrage.

Not a gotcha, I just didn't know there were people who would be fine doing away with the tradition of separating girls and boys sports. Crazy.

I had a female teammate on my middle school football team in Garden City in the early 90's and she was pretty good.  Guess what?  Nobody bitched about it.

Nobody cares about girls playing boys sports. Moreover, very few people would care if a trans girl played boys sports.

[Justwin]

I have wiggle room on a lot of issues, human rights aren't one of them, it can't be one of them.

Is it a right to play sports?

We live in the United States of America, everything legal is a right. The stance of "it's just sports" is a real easy take for someone who doesn't have a whole lot of people trying to take that away from you. In fact, as a cis white male, I don't believe you have anything to worry about, I'm not aware of a single bill, anywhere in the country, trying to restrict you from anything. Literally every single person participating in this conversation, other than possibly dax, also knows that this prohibition on sports isn't an end point. In Iowa alone, this year, there have been 29 different proposed bills that place some sort of limitation on people who identify as LGBTQ.

Is this similar to how everyone knows that "common sense" gun regulations aren't an end point?

I have no idea, maybe? I can tell you that there isn't a state in the country with 29 current bill proposals that restrict gun ownership. When that happens to gun owners, let's have a chat. When we do have that chat, I'll make the very common sense argument that guns aren't people.

Is 29 the magic number? There are lots of bills proposed in states and passed in states that restrict gun ownership in the face of clear Supreme Court decisions.

SCOTUS has said remarkably little regarding the 2nd amendment since the history of always. It's actually kind of amazing how little they've had to say on it considering it's in the top 10 of the amendments (not 100% sure but i believe it was the 2nd one)

Notice that the words "2nd amendment" never appeared in my post.

[_33]

So just to be clear, you believe boys should be able to play volleyball in Iowa? Because 'there cannot be validity to the restrictions of one's rights based on identity?'  By separating girls and boys sports at all isn't that 'restricting one's rights based on identity?'

Why shouldn't they? Who cares? Is this an attempt at a gotcha? I was pretty clear about this.

Just so you know, at least last time I officiated volleyball in Kansas, in 2012, boys were allowed to play volleyball and some did. I didn't recall any outrage. Girls are allowed to and do play football and wrestle in both Iowa and Kansas, no outrage.

Not a gotcha, I just didn't know there were people who would be fine doing away with the tradition of separating girls and boys sports. Crazy.

I had a female teammate on my middle school football team in Garden City in the early 90's and she was pretty good.  Guess what?  Nobody bitched about it.

I did too! (late 90's) Not sure what this has to do with my post though. I mean, you know why girls and boys sports are separated right? Hint: it's not to keep girls off the football team.

[MakeItRain]

So just to be clear, you believe boys should be able to play volleyball in Iowa? Because 'there cannot be validity to the restrictions of one's rights based on identity?'  By separating girls and boys sports at all isn't that 'restricting one's rights based on identity?'

Why shouldn't they? Who cares? Is this an attempt at a gotcha? I was pretty clear about this.

Just so you know, at least last time I officiated volleyball in Kansas, in 2012, boys were allowed to play volleyball and some did. I didn't recall any outrage. Girls are allowed to and do play football and wrestle in both Iowa and Kansas, no outrage.

Not a gotcha, I just didn't know there were people who would be fine doing away with the tradition of separating girls and boys sports. Crazy.

I had a female teammate on my middle school football team in Garden City in the early 90's and she was pretty good.  Guess what?  Nobody bitched about it.

Yeah, there's no tradition, that's a coping mechanism and even though it's pointed out that he's wrong, he'll stay dug in. In 1989 I played football against girls at Scott City and Liberal. There was a woman drafted in the NBA in 1977. The first woman to play men's professional baseball happened in 1898.

[MakeItRain]

So just to be clear, you believe boys should be able to play volleyball in Iowa? Because 'there cannot be validity to the restrictions of one's rights based on identity?'  By separating girls and boys sports at all isn't that 'restricting one's rights based on identity?'

Why shouldn't they? Who cares? Is this an attempt at a gotcha? I was pretty clear about this.

Just so you know, at least last time I officiated volleyball in Kansas, in 2012, boys were allowed to play volleyball and some did. I didn't recall any outrage. Girls are allowed to and do play football and wrestle in both Iowa and Kansas, no outrage.

Not a gotcha, I just didn't know there were people who would be fine doing away with the tradition of separating girls and boys sports. Crazy.

I had a female teammate on my middle school football team in Garden City in the early 90's and she was pretty good.  Guess what?  Nobody bitched about it.

I did too! (late 90's) Not sure what this has to do with my post though. I mean, you know why girls and boys sports are separated right? Hint: it's not to keep girls off the football team.

Did he not directly address you saying "I just didn't know there were people who would be fine doing away with the tradition of separating girls and boys sports. Crazy."?

[Spracne]

I'm sure this was already covered earlier in the thread, but it bears repeating:

Salt Lake City, Utah – Today, the Utah House and Senate overrode Gov. Spencer Cox’s veto of House Bill 11 – a bill that bans transgender students from participating in school sports consistent with their gender identity.

HB 11 was hastily pushed through the Senate and heavily amended on the last night of Utah’s legislative session, with members of leadership in both houses voting against or not voting. In a letter explaining his veto, Gov. Cox cited high suicide rates among transgender youth and added that there are only four transgender students playing high school sports in Utah, and only one playing girls sports.

“Four kids who aren’t dominating or winning trophies or taking scholarships. Four kids who are just trying to find some friends and feel like they are a part of something. Four kids trying to get through each day,” Gov. Cox wrote in the letter. “Rarely has so much fear and anger been directed at so few. I don’t understand what they are going through or why they feel the way they do. But I want them to live. And all the research shows that even a little acceptance and connection can reduce suicidality significantly. For that reason, as much as any other, I have taken this action in the hope that we can continue to work together and find a better way.”

Gov. Cox rightly points out the vanishingly small scale of the supposed "problem" and the countervailing ills of the supposed "solution." One trans girl playing girls sports in Utah. Can you imagine how that single person felt at the passage of this law? It veers shockingly close to a bill of attainder, or at least I have to imagine that's how she feels about it. Why is anyone OK with inflicting this kind of psychological damage on a small and marginalized group of human beings?

Full article with link to full letter: https://www.hrc.org/press-releases/breaking-utah-legislature-overrides-gov-coxs-veto-of-anti-trans-sports-ban

[BIG APPLE CAT]

So just to be clear, you believe boys should be able to play volleyball in Iowa? Because 'there cannot be validity to the restrictions of one's rights based on identity?'  By separating girls and boys sports at all isn't that 'restricting one's rights based on identity?'

Why shouldn't they? Who cares? Is this an attempt at a gotcha? I was pretty clear about this.

Just so you know, at least last time I officiated volleyball in Kansas, in 2012, boys were allowed to play volleyball and some did. I didn't recall any outrage. Girls are allowed to and do play football and wrestle in both Iowa and Kansas, no outrage.

Not a gotcha, I just didn't know there were people who would be fine doing away with the tradition of separating girls and boys sports. Crazy.

I had a female teammate on my middle school football team in Garden City in the early 90's and she was pretty good.  Guess what?  Nobody bitched about it.

Nobody cares about girls playing boys sports. Moreover, very few people would care if a trans girl played boys sports.

Now let's take the next step. (and this is the part where MIR is going to tell me to eff off) but ultimately in the scheme of stuff the american public cares about...nobody really cares about women's sports all that much either. But for the thousandth time literally everybody knows this isn't about fair competition in women's sports. Its about erasure of a group of people. Don't get mad at the audience for not falling for your sleight of hand. Get better at sleight of hand or get a new trick. Everybody has already seen this one.