Presidential debate final stage (now moderated by an adult!)

[The Big Train]

This thread is just like the debate last night

[steve dave]

This thread is just like the debate last night

Haha

[MakeItRain]

No. She had surrogates that absolutely questioned Barack Obama's citizenship status, or his "otherness." That is a fact, confirmed by Reggie Love. The Hillary spokesperson on CNN denied Trump's false claim that "Hillary started the birther movement."

it's just a shame there was no media around eight years ago to document clinton's or the clinton campaign's birtherism.  oth, if we had had a media back then perhaps the message would have disseminated and clinton might have won that primary.  kind of a double-edge alternate history, i guess.

You're changing the goalposts, I never accused Hillary and/or Bill Clinton of being birthers, Trump did that and I said he lied about that. There's plenty of documentation about Hillary supporters/surrogates questioning Obama's citizenship or how American he is. I'm not sure if your memory is bad or your inability to google is but claiming that this wasn't documented at the time is laughably false.

My issue with the Clinton campaign is that at the time, was the tone towards Obama, it led me to stop being a Hillary supporter. They weren't saying these things but they were out there, it is worth noting that Bill Clinton called the Obama campaign a joke and a farce. Hillary stayed out of the talk, didn't question his otherness, didn't stand up for him either. John McCain did do very publicly, Hillary didn't though. And now when Trump brings this up her campaign can play stupid, and have plausible deniability because she never did it. If she had any shred of integrity about her she'd say something to the effect of "while I take exception to your claim that I started the birther movement, I do regret the tone that surrounded the campaigns at the time."

[MakeItRain]

http://www.politico.com/story/2011/04/birtherism-where-it-all-began-053563

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2008/08/penn-strategy-memo-march-19-2008/37952/

Substantiated enough or no?

[Trim]

This thread is just like the debate last night

Haha

Debate and company was better.

[treysolid]

Trump promoted a 1 million dollar prize for a hole in one during a golf event at one of his courses, and designated in the fine print that the ball had to travel at least 150 yards, knowing full well the hole was much shorter than 150 yards (meaning that no one could actually win the million dollars).

^ you think that guy gives a solitary eff about stiffing contractors who do good work, let alone shitty work?
c'mon. trump is the ultimate snake oil salesman. he has no intentions of doing anything but using the presidency to line his own pockets. he wants to eliminate the federal estate tax so he can give his kids a nice billion $+ gift. he has no intention of putting his assets in a blind trust while should he become president, which is a huge conflict of interest.

there have been hundreds of people and businesses that were not properly compensated for their work, along with 24 (!holy eff!) violations of the fair labor standards act.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/06/09/donald-trump-unpaid-bills-republican-president-laswuits/85297274/

[stunted]

That hole in one story is bogus, was Alonzo Mourning's charity event. Just happened to be at one of Trump's courses.

DISHONEST!

[star seed 7]

That hole in one story is bogus, was Alonzo Mourning's charity event. Just happened to be at one of Trump's courses.

DISHONEST!

then why did he settle a lawsuit over it and then pay the fine with trump foundation money?

[stunted]

That hole in one story is bogus, was Alonzo Mourning's charity event. Just happened to be at one of Trump's courses.

DISHONEST!

then why did he settle a lawsuit over it and then pay the fine with trump foundation money?

Had to cover for a lazy liberal looking for handouts (Alonzo)

[star seed 7]

that's totally reasonable

[stunted]

4 real tho

http://pagesix.com/2011/02/11/hole-in-one-ace-sues-for-1m/

[sys]

You're changing the goalposts. I never accused Hillary and/or Bill Clinton of being birthers.

Well well well, Hillary surrogates on CNN straight lying about her people starting the birther movement. crap head and bigoted idiot, Jeffery Lord just 100% busted them on the lie and Hillrod fanboi, Van Jones, said "so what." Of course because Donald Trump is a stupid, lazy, liar, he got the story wrong too so the media does not have to confront the facts of this, only the bogus story he told on stage.

eff Hillary and her army of equivocators; I wouldn't vote for her if I had five votes.

i mean, i guess, if i squint really hard i can forensically recover a train of thought where you make a claim that clinton's campaign and supporters pressing the impression that obama was subtly less american than clinton was responsible in some way for spawning the birther movement.  but you'd be asking readers to put more effort into parsing your thoughts that you seem to have put into outlining them.

There's plenty of documentation about Hillary supporters/surrogates questioning Obama's citizenship or how American he is.

nothing in your links supports that, nor has anything else i've seen.

My issue with the Clinton campaign is that at the time, was the tone towards Obama, it led me to stop being a Hillary supporter. They weren't saying these things but they were out there, it is worth noting that Bill Clinton called the Obama campaign a joke and a farce. Hillary stayed out of the talk, didn't question his otherness, didn't stand up for him either. John McCain did do very publicly, Hillary didn't though. And now when Trump brings this up her campaign can play stupid, and have plausible deniability because she never did it. If she had any shred of integrity about her she'd say something to the effect of "while I take exception to your claim that I started the birther movement, I do regret the tone that surrounded the campaigns at the time."

that's all completely fair (afaik).  it is possible to criticize her based on unexaggerated facts.  it just seems to be very hard for clintonophobes to restrict themselves to that standard.

[bucket]

4 real tho

http://pagesix.com/2011/02/11/hole-in-one-ace-sues-for-1m/

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/trump-258k-charity-settle-suits-businesses-article-1.2799475

Eventually, Trump’s club and Greenberg settled the case, with the company agreeing to donate $158,000 to a charity chosen by Greenberg, which he later decided would be the Martin Greenberg Foundation.

The money given to Greenberg’s charity, however, came from the Donald J. Trump Foundation, tax forms for the mogul’s charity from 2012 show.

[renocat]

Alicia Machado signed a.Miss Universe contract that had a fat clause.  She broke her contract by eating and gaining.  Hillary doesn't adhere to contracts, rules, or laws.  So holding a woman to a contract is sexist.  Did her can her and change her life forever?  No.  She is now famous.  Was he mean or practicing tough love.

[MakeItRain]

nothing in your links supports that, nor has anything else i've seen.

What? This is some serious staning you're doing. Please spin this

But he also called Obama "unelectable except perhaps against Attila the Hun," and wrote, "I cannot imagine America electing a president during a time of war who is not at his center fundamentally American in his thinking and in his values." Penn proposed targeting Obama's "lack of American roots."

[bucket]

4 real tho

http://pagesix.com/2011/02/11/hole-in-one-ace-sues-for-1m/

Do you read page six a lot? The top headlines on their website tonight are:

"'Very Drunk' Jimmy Fallon dances to 90's Tunes All Night" 

and

"Warren Beatty Has Not Slept with 12,775 Women" 

[sys]

got that sick baby to pull itself up by its own bootstraps too, come to think of it.  either that or it died.  not sure which, actually.

[sys]

nothing in your links supports that, nor has anything else i've seen.

What? This is some serious staning you're doing. Please spin this

But he also called Obama "unelectable except perhaps against Attila the Hun," and wrote, "I cannot imagine America electing a president during a time of war who is not at his center fundamentally American in his thinking and in his values." Penn proposed targeting Obama's "lack of American roots."

that memo does not in any way question obama's citzenship.  it discusses whether there might be political advantage to be gained in highlighting obama's multicultural family and his childhood in indonesia (e.g. factually non-american aspects of his "roots").  this is explicitly identity politics, which i was critical of during the conventions - that what matters is not just the ideas and policies that obama espoused, but his background and group identity, so i'm glad that the memo writer was wrong and that americans chose obama's ideas (or less hopefully, that they simply preferred obama's identity to clinton's).

[MakeItRain]

nothing in your links supports that, nor has anything else i've seen.

What? This is some serious staning you're doing. Please spin this

But he also called Obama "unelectable except perhaps against Attila the Hun," and wrote, "I cannot imagine America electing a president during a time of war who is not at his center fundamentally American in his thinking and in his values." Penn proposed targeting Obama's "lack of American roots."

that memo does not in any way question obama's citzenship.  it discusses whether there might be political advantage to be gained in highlighting obama's multicultural family and his childhood in indonesia (e.g. factually non-american aspects of his "roots").  this is explicitly identity politics, which i was critical of during the conventions - that what matters is not just the ideas and policies that obama espoused, but his background and group identity, so i'm glad that the memo writer was wrong and that americans chose obama's ideas (or less hopefully, that they simply preferred obama's identity to clinton's).

That's fair but they absolutely knew that opening that door as a strategy meant for the masses would not produce conversation with the nuance that you explored. The birther stuff was started by some loony republicans in the early spring of 2008 and then picked up by Hillary supporters a month later. The birther stuff and the multiculturalism as a potential weakness are cards played from the same deck attempting to do the same thing. Clinton didn't say Obama was born in Kenya but she, like McCain, had plenty of chances to get people to fall back and she didn't because she needed the votes.

[420seriouscat69]

Jesus Christ 

[gatoveintisiete]

The buck stops short of the back of my pantsuit- Hillary Clinton

[chum1]

There really is a disproportionality between the amount of dislike for Clinton and the amount that her actions would typically warrant. It's like the disproportionality between the amount of dislike for Obama and the amount that his actions would typically warrant. That's no surprise, though. We have plenty of sexism and racism in this country.

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

Cool fantasy. Do GWB now.

[sonofdaxjones]

The whining about people disliking Hillary is comically superficial.    Then again, most Hillbots lack the intellectual depth to discuss anything about Hillary beyond the most superficial issues. 

Sad

[420seriouscat69]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/kaepernick-in-danger-of-losing-support-after-debate-comments/ar-BBwJngD?li=BBnb7Kz

“Both are proven liars and it almost seems like they’re trying to debate who’s less racist.”