Author Topic: Baton Rouge  (Read 14938 times)

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Offline DQ12

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Re: Baton Rouge
« Reply #125 on: October 18, 2019, 12:36:51 PM »
I think the main takeaway of the St. George thing is that white parents in America flat out don't want their children to go to school with black kids and don't want to pay for the education of black kids. It's like that everywhere in the US.
Maybe segregation is a byproduct, but I don't think race is the motive in most situations.  I think the more likely explanation is that parents want to send their kids to "the best schools," which are (or are perceived to be) in affluent areas with large tax bases, and inevitably leads to the exclusion of less affluent demographics, including minorities.  In other words, I think a lot of these (very real) bad effects are born mostly out of self interest, not racism. 

there's a fine line between "self interest" and racism
I think there can be overlap at times, but I think in order to criticize an actor for a racist action, race should be at least contemplated by the actor.

In other words, I don't think buying a house in prairie village so your kids can go to Shawnee Mission East is racist.


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Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Baton Rouge
« Reply #126 on: October 18, 2019, 12:45:20 PM »

Right.  I don't think anybody here (at least in these last few posts) is denying that systemic racism has existed and continues to exist, which leads to horrible and unfair outcomes for black people.  We largely agree on the existence, causes and effects of the problem.  I can only speak for myself, though I imagine 8man and Spracne would agree, but the issue was you ascribing White America's (as vague as that concept is) supposed evil characteristic to something that is innate, which seems completely absurd.   

The continuance of the inequity is intentional. We have many many more people interested in whether or not they are viewed as a part of the problem than motivated to actually do anything about it.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Baton Rouge
« Reply #127 on: October 18, 2019, 12:49:49 PM »
I think the main takeaway of the St. George thing is that white parents in America flat out don't want their children to go to school with black kids and don't want to pay for the education of black kids. It's like that everywhere in the US.
Maybe segregation is a byproduct, but I don't think race is the motive in most situations.  I think the more likely explanation is that parents want to send their kids to "the best schools," which are (or are perceived to be) in affluent areas with large tax bases, and inevitably leads to the exclusion of less affluent demographics, including minorities.  In other words, I think a lot of these (very real) bad effects are born mostly out of self interest, not racism. 

there's a fine line between "self interest" and racism
I think there can be overlap at times, but I think in order to criticize an actor for a racist action, race should be at least contemplated by the actor.

In other words, I don't think buying a house in prairie village so your kids can go to Shawnee Mission East is racist.

It's punting on the problem. It's doing absolutely nothing to end the systematic racism issues. You want to do what's best for your family, fine I won't begrudge that. However, you can't turn around and get sensitive for someone pointing out that you're a part of the problem if you aren't doing anything tangible to fix it.

Also any action can be excused as well intentioned if you want to.

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Re: Baton Rouge
« Reply #128 on: October 18, 2019, 12:59:51 PM »

Right.  I don't think anybody here (at least in these last few posts) is denying that systemic racism has existed and continues to exist, which leads to horrible and unfair outcomes for black people.  We largely agree on the existence, causes and effects of the problem.  I can only speak for myself, though I imagine 8man and Spracne would agree, but the issue was you ascribing White America's (as vague as that concept is) supposed evil characteristic to something that is innate, which seems completely absurd.   

The continuance of the inequity is intentional. We have many many more people interested in whether or not they are viewed as a part of the problem than motivated to actually do anything about it.
Broadly speaking, we're going to disagree that the inequity is intentional, or at least a significant motivating factor.

But I'd certainly agree with your second sentence.  Out of curiosity, what would you have people do about it?


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Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Baton Rouge
« Reply #129 on: October 18, 2019, 01:08:30 PM »

Right.  I don't think anybody here (at least in these last few posts) is denying that systemic racism has existed and continues to exist, which leads to horrible and unfair outcomes for black people.  We largely agree on the existence, causes and effects of the problem.  I can only speak for myself, though I imagine 8man and Spracne would agree, but the issue was you ascribing White America's (as vague as that concept is) supposed evil characteristic to something that is innate, which seems completely absurd.   

The continuance of the inequity is intentional. We have many many more people interested in whether or not they are viewed as a part of the problem than motivated to actually do anything about it.
Broadly speaking, we're going to disagree that the inequity is intentional, or at least a significant motivating factor.

But I'd certainly agree with your second sentence.  Out of curiosity, what would you have people do about it?

You don't think the inequity in this country isn't intentional? What are you attributing to its existence. What should be done? Something, anything. Rusty and I have already pointed out that our civil rights legislation in this country has been rendered functionally useless. They were basic human rights that have been, at best, not advanced, in some cases rolled back. Start by having frank conversations and actually listening to how POC feel about how they feel. We are the ones forced to live in the current system. I can hear a million people all over everywhere say what you're saying, until the advent of social media I couldn't hear anyone who thinks like I do. We need more people willing to do this as an absolute bear minimum.

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Re: Baton Rouge
« Reply #130 on: October 18, 2019, 01:22:48 PM »

Right.  I don't think anybody here (at least in these last few posts) is denying that systemic racism has existed and continues to exist, which leads to horrible and unfair outcomes for black people.  We largely agree on the existence, causes and effects of the problem.  I can only speak for myself, though I imagine 8man and Spracne would agree, but the issue was you ascribing White America's (as vague as that concept is) supposed evil characteristic to something that is innate, which seems completely absurd.   

The continuance of the inequity is intentional. We have many many more people interested in whether or not they are viewed as a part of the problem than motivated to actually do anything about it.
Broadly speaking, we're going to disagree that the inequity is intentional, or at least a significant motivating factor.

But I'd certainly agree with your second sentence.  Out of curiosity, what would you have people do about it?

You don't think the inequity in this country isn't intentional? What are you attributing to its existence. What should be done? Something, anything. Rusty and I have already pointed out that our civil rights legislation in this country has been rendered functionally useless. They were basic human rights that have been, at best, not advanced, in some cases rolled back. Start by having frank conversations and actually listening to how POC feel about how they feel. We are the ones forced to live in the current system. I can hear a million people all over everywhere say what you're saying, until the advent of social media I couldn't hear anyone who thinks like I do. We need more people willing to do this as an absolute bear minimum.

https://twitter.com/_SJPeace_/status/1185219495876583425
Today, I think I'd attribute it mostly to the socioeconomic legacy of slavery and jim crow.  Because of those institutions, black people are generally poorer, and poor people generally have a rough go of it.   

I don't know what should be done, frankly.  To your point, talking and listening is pretty easy, and I do like having these conversations.  Beyond that, I'm not sure what could/should be done.  I've tried to do things in the past that were good uses of my privilege to benefit less fortunate people.  I think people ought to try and do that. 


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Re: Baton Rouge
« Reply #131 on: October 18, 2019, 01:47:30 PM »
Where I live it's absurd how much better schools get (and how much property value increases) when you cross a street. At the same time, I'm not going to send my kid to a drastically underfunded school when I can afford to live on the good side of the street (which I think is dLew's point about self interest), because it isn't what's best for them and it really doesn't fix crap.

A pretty radical idea would be to outlaw private schools and eliminate local school districts, both of which extend the legacy of Jim Crow.  Fund all schools equitably from the federal or state level and aggressively reintroduce busing based on race and income. Sorta like medicare for all but for schools. white people would flip if that happened though. Maybe we can do that when I eliminate city boundaries in the bay area - go to a giant municipal government and school district at the same time.

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Re: Baton Rouge
« Reply #132 on: October 18, 2019, 01:54:50 PM »
Where I live it's absurd how much better schools get (and how much property value increases) when you cross a street. At the same time, I'm not going to send my kid to a drastically underfunded school when I can afford to live on the good side of the street (which I think is dLew's point about self interest), because it isn't what's best for them and it really doesn't fix crap.

A pretty radical idea would be to outlaw private schools and eliminate local school districts, both of which extend the legacy of Jim Crow.  Fund all schools equitably from the federal or state level and aggressively reintroduce busing based on race and income. Sorta like medicare for all but for schools. white people would flip if that happened though. Maybe we can do that when I eliminate city boundaries in the bay area - go to a giant municipal government and school district at the same time.
I think I'd agree with your idea about eliminating school districts (at least until someone comes in and tells me why it's a shitty idea that would lead to a bunch of problems I haven't thought of). 

I don't think I'd be on board with abolishing private schools.


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Re: Baton Rouge
« Reply #133 on: October 18, 2019, 01:55:41 PM »
I think everyone would have better education if private schools didn't exist, including kids currently enrolled in private schools.

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Re: Baton Rouge
« Reply #134 on: October 18, 2019, 01:56:11 PM »
I don't think I'd be on board with abolishing private schools.

why?

Offline steve dave

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Re: Baton Rouge
« Reply #135 on: October 18, 2019, 01:56:26 PM »
I’m as privileged as anyone can possibly be and can confirm I’d flip if that happened.


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Re: Baton Rouge
« Reply #136 on: October 18, 2019, 01:56:49 PM »
I think everyone would have better education if private schools didn't exist, including kids currently enrolled in private schools.
Setting the constitutional issues aside here, why do you think this?


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Re: Baton Rouge
« Reply #137 on: October 18, 2019, 02:02:28 PM »
I don't think I'd be on board with abolishing private schools.

why?
For one, if school districts are equitably funded, then what difference does the existence of private schools make? Two, I think it's reasonable for parents to seek a religious education for their children, and that can't happen in public schools.  And along those same lines, parents have a constitutionally protected right to send their kids to private schools.


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Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Baton Rouge
« Reply #138 on: October 18, 2019, 02:03:21 PM »
I think everyone would have better education if private schools didn't exist, including kids currently enrolled in private schools.
Setting the constitutional issues aside here, why do you think this?

Public schools have better financial resources. They can offer better pay, better technology, and better facilities than private schools. At least that is true in most areas within Kansas. I would assume in areas where that isn't true, the public school system doesn't get support from influential people who send their kids to private schools and has trouble securing adequate funding. That wouldn't happen without private schools.

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Re: Baton Rouge
« Reply #139 on: October 18, 2019, 02:07:05 PM »
I don't think I'd be on board with abolishing private schools.

why?
For one, if school districts are equitably funded, then what difference does the existence of private schools make? Two, I think it's reasonable for parents to seek a religious education for their children, and that can't happen in public schools.  And along those same lines, parents have a constitutionally protected right to send their kids to private schools.

Regarding your first point, look into the explosion of private schools in the south after desegregation became federally mandated: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segregation_academy

Second point, parents can give their kids a religious education outside of school

Are private schools explicitly protected in the Constitution? I googled it quickly and I'm not a constitutional scholar but didn't see anything explicitly protecting them.

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Re: Baton Rouge
« Reply #140 on: October 18, 2019, 02:14:19 PM »
I don't think I'd be on board with abolishing private schools.

why?
For one, if school districts are equitably funded, then what difference does the existence of private schools make? Two, I think it's reasonable for parents to seek a religious education for their children, and that can't happen in public schools.  And along those same lines, parents have a constitutionally protected right to send their kids to private schools.

Regarding your first point, look into the explosion of private schools in the south after desegregation became federally mandated: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segregation_academy

Second point, parents can give their kids a religious education outside of school

Are private schools explicitly protected in the Constitution? I googled it quickly and I'm not a constitutional scholar but didn't see anything explicitly protecting them.
Making multiple points always fucks up threads, but:

1. I guess I'm lost.  I agreed with you that let's abolish school districts so geography isn't a factor in school funding.  If people choose to send their kids to a different school, while still contributing to the equitable funding of public schools, then I'm nto sure what difference it makes.  I don't foresee people opting out of legitimately well funded schools on the basis of race -- at least not in the current climate.  This would test my theory that these days, decisions are largely made out of self-interest rather than race.

2.  That's true, but I got at least 5 hours of religious education per week at school.  Supplementing that during non-school times isn't convenient, but point taken.

3.  Yeah -- at least that's what Supreme Court jurisprudence says: Pierce v. Society of Sisters - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierce_v._Society_of_Sisters


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Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Baton Rouge
« Reply #141 on: October 18, 2019, 02:17:45 PM »
I think you could eliminate tax exempt status of private schools and mostly fix the issue without violating the constitution. Put all of the taxes they pay into public schools.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 02:22:12 PM by Rage Against the McKee »

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Re: Baton Rouge
« Reply #142 on: October 18, 2019, 02:24:09 PM »
Totally off topic, but what curriculum do religious schools sacrifice to teach 5 hours of religion each week?
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

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Re: Baton Rouge
« Reply #143 on: October 18, 2019, 02:24:54 PM »
1. I guess I'm lost.  I agreed with you that let's abolish school districts so geography isn't a factor in school funding.  If people choose to send their kids to a different school, while still contributing to the equitable funding of public schools, then I'm nto sure what difference it makes.  I don't foresee people opting out of legitimately well funded schools on the basis of race -- at least not in the current climate.  This would test my theory that these days, decisions are largely made out of self-interest rather than race.[/url]

My thought is that the quality of public schools would suffer if all the rich kids with stable homes left and went to private schools, even if the public schools received better funding than they do now.

thanks for the info on that supreme court case

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Re: Baton Rouge
« Reply #144 on: October 18, 2019, 02:30:27 PM »
Totally off topic, but what curriculum do religious schools sacrifice to teach 5 hours of religion each week?
:dunno:

I'm wondering what you guys did with the extra hour a day?


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Re: Baton Rouge
« Reply #145 on: October 18, 2019, 02:32:02 PM »
As soon as I posted that I figured it was probably in place of whatever worthless electives people take (all the cooking classes in my case)
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

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Re: Baton Rouge
« Reply #146 on: October 18, 2019, 02:33:32 PM »
1. I guess I'm lost.  I agreed with you that let's abolish school districts so geography isn't a factor in school funding.  If people choose to send their kids to a different school, while still contributing to the equitable funding of public schools, then I'm nto sure what difference it makes.  I don't foresee people opting out of legitimately well funded schools on the basis of race -- at least not in the current climate.  This would test my theory that these days, decisions are largely made out of self-interest rather than race.[/url]

My thought is that the quality of public schools would suffer if all the rich kids with stable homes left and went to private schools, even if the public schools received better funding than they do now.

thanks for the info on that supreme court case
Yeah, I don't see that being some enormous problem in our hypothetical world -- at least no bigger than it is currently in the real world.


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Re: Baton Rouge
« Reply #147 on: October 18, 2019, 02:37:50 PM »
1. I guess I'm lost.  I agreed with you that let's abolish school districts so geography isn't a factor in school funding.  If people choose to send their kids to a different school, while still contributing to the equitable funding of public schools, then I'm nto sure what difference it makes.  I don't foresee people opting out of legitimately well funded schools on the basis of race -- at least not in the current climate.  This would test my theory that these days, decisions are largely made out of self-interest rather than race.[/url]

My thought is that the quality of public schools would suffer if all the rich kids with stable homes left and went to private schools, even if the public schools received better funding than they do now.

thanks for the info on that supreme court case
Yeah, I don't see that being some enormous problem in our hypothetical world -- at least no bigger than it is currently in the real world.

I think it's a significant problem, or part of the problem, in the current real world. Urban schools definitely suffer because the majority of their wealthy students go to private schools (despite partially funding their local public schools). And I think it would become worse in the hypothetical.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 02:41:01 PM by michigancat »

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Re: Baton Rouge
« Reply #148 on: October 18, 2019, 03:07:37 PM »
1. I guess I'm lost.  I agreed with you that let's abolish school districts so geography isn't a factor in school funding.  If people choose to send their kids to a different school, while still contributing to the equitable funding of public schools, then I'm nto sure what difference it makes.  I don't foresee people opting out of legitimately well funded schools on the basis of race -- at least not in the current climate.  This would test my theory that these days, decisions are largely made out of self-interest rather than race.[/url]

My thought is that the quality of public schools would suffer if all the rich kids with stable homes left and went to private schools, even if the public schools received better funding than they do now.

thanks for the info on that supreme court case
Yeah, I don't see that being some enormous problem in our hypothetical world -- at least no bigger than it is currently in the real world.

I think it's a significant problem, or part of the problem, in the current real world. Urban schools definitely suffer because the majority of their wealthy students go to private schools (despite partially funding their local public schools). And I think it would become worse in the hypothetical.

But would enough of them still if they were actually good schools? I guess that's the rub. And would it matter for the students in the now better public schools if they did?
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Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Baton Rouge
« Reply #149 on: October 18, 2019, 03:07:51 PM »

Right.  I don't think anybody here (at least in these last few posts) is denying that systemic racism has existed and continues to exist, which leads to horrible and unfair outcomes for black people.  We largely agree on the existence, causes and effects of the problem.  I can only speak for myself, though I imagine 8man and Spracne would agree, but the issue was you ascribing White America's (as vague as that concept is) supposed evil characteristic to something that is innate, which seems completely absurd.   

The continuance of the inequity is intentional. We have many many more people interested in whether or not they are viewed as a part of the problem than motivated to actually do anything about it.
Broadly speaking, we're going to disagree that the inequity is intentional, or at least a significant motivating factor.

But I'd certainly agree with your second sentence.  Out of curiosity, what would you have people do about it?

You don't think the inequity in this country isn't intentional? What are you attributing to its existence. What should be done? Something, anything. Rusty and I have already pointed out that our civil rights legislation in this country has been rendered functionally useless. They were basic human rights that have been, at best, not advanced, in some cases rolled back. Start by having frank conversations and actually listening to how POC feel about how they feel. We are the ones forced to live in the current system. I can hear a million people all over everywhere say what you're saying, until the advent of social media I couldn't hear anyone who thinks like I do. We need more people willing to do this as an absolute bear minimum.

https://twitter.com/_SJPeace_/status/1185219495876583425
Today, I think I'd attribute it mostly to the socioeconomic legacy of slavery and jim crow.  Because of those institutions, black people are generally poorer, and poor people generally have a rough go of it.   

I don't know what should be done, frankly.  To your point, talking and listening is pretty easy, and I do like having these conversations.  Beyond that, I'm not sure what could/should be done.  I've tried to do things in the past that were good uses of my privilege to benefit less fortunate people.  I think people ought to try and do that.

There's a lot that can be done but it would require radical changes that y'all aren't willing to do. For starters, the 40 Acres and a mule that we were promised. Y'all aren't even willing to stop segregation, stop gerrymandering, fairly fund schools, and make actual criminal justice reforms. We have presidential candidates promising to give everyone a dividend, hell Alaska is currently doing so, but no one willing to give any type of reparations.