Author Topic: firebrucewebernow.com  (Read 102638 times)

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Offline star seed 7

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #825 on: February 02, 2021, 11:48:18 AM »
Things I learned about Jack Hartman today:

He's not even on the first page of Google results when you search his name (pro tip, add basketball to the search)

He stopped coaching when I was 4 so that's probably why I have no opinion on his tenure or how I feel about him as a coach.
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Online michigancat

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #826 on: February 02, 2021, 11:56:13 AM »
Hartman had more highs and higher lows than oscar.  Was Hartman fired?  Also, I had no idea he randomly coached the women for 7 games in the 90s.

He has three conference titles compared to two for oscar. Jack's elite eights were all in 32 team tournaments and just one was in his last 12 seasons. Hard to compare "lowest low" but oscar never had a 4 year stinker run like Jack had at the end.

Hartman didn't have a conference or overall record at any point that is comparable to the last two seasons for oscar.  Hartman's longer run of down years was more like oscar's 14/15 and 15/16 seasons. 

I also don't know how much the 32 team tournament discredits the elite 8 as the difficulty of making the tournament offsets the difficulty of winning another game, imo.  As a 9 seed, oscar wouldn't have an elite 8 here or even a tournament appearance that year if it were still a 32 team tournament.

finishing 6th, 6th, 5th, and 7th in an 8 team league over a 4 year span is definitely comparable (if not worse). not out of the ballpark by any means

and you're right about the tournament

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #827 on: February 02, 2021, 12:09:23 PM »
Some info to chew on:


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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #828 on: February 02, 2021, 12:12:52 PM »
I like how there is a discussion about whether or not oscar will be fired because he sucks crap and also a discussion about whether or not oscar is an all time great based entirely on the win percentage of his worst couple seasons.

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #829 on: February 02, 2021, 12:24:49 PM »
Since WWII, 11 men have served as the head coach of the Kansas State Men's Basketball Program. Those men are (in order): Jack Gardner, Tex Winter, Cotton Fitzsimmons, Jack Hartman, Lon Kruger, Dana Altman, Tom Asbury, Jim Wooldridge, Bob Huggins, Frank Martin and oscar Weber.

A good way to assess the performance of a coach is how his teams perform in conference play. The parameters are more constant than NCAA records and overall records imo.

Weber's ranks among the 11 KSU coaches post WWII
Conf. Winning Percentage - 8-of-11 (.477)
Winning Percentage - 8-of-11 (.574)
Avg Conference Finish - 8-of-11 (5.5)
Conference title percentage - 5-of-11 (.222)



If there was a gif of nicname thwarting the attempted-flag-taker and then gesturing him to suck it, followed by motioning for all of Hilton Shelter to boo him louder, it'd be better than that auburn gif.

Offline nicname

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #830 on: February 02, 2021, 12:28:58 PM »
Since WWII, every KSU bball coach worse than oscar has been fired for performance.
If there was a gif of nicname thwarting the attempted-flag-taker and then gesturing him to suck it, followed by motioning for all of Hilton Shelter to boo him louder, it'd be better than that auburn gif.

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #831 on: February 02, 2021, 12:31:31 PM »
In nearly nine full seasons as KSU head coach oscar had lost more conference games than he has won. The only other Post WWII KSU head coaches you can say that about are:

Jim Wooldridge
Tom Asbury
Dana Altman
If there was a gif of nicname thwarting the attempted-flag-taker and then gesturing him to suck it, followed by motioning for all of Hilton Shelter to boo him louder, it'd be better than that auburn gif.

Offline PIPE

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #832 on: February 02, 2021, 12:59:39 PM »
oscar's record last 2 years:

4-23 conference (so far)
16-34 overall (so far)



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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #833 on: February 02, 2021, 02:05:56 PM »
I like how there is a discussion about whether or not oscar will be fired because he sucks crap and also a discussion about whether or not oscar is an all time great based entirely on the win percentage of his worst couple seasons.

the problem is that if you look at that graphic Chingon posted, the red area is quite a bit larger than the green area over that 9 year span

Offline EMAWzifried

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #834 on: February 02, 2021, 02:51:52 PM »
Hartman had more highs and higher lows than oscar.  Was Hartman fired?  Also, I had no idea he randomly coached the women for 7 games in the 90s.

He has three conference titles compared to two for oscar. Jack's elite eights were all in 32 team tournaments and just one was in his last 12 seasons. Hard to compare "lowest low" but oscar never had a 4 year stinker run like Jack hNad at the end.


This is wrong. The NCAA first expanded the tournament to 48 teams in 1975. K-State lost the Big-8 championship in the final week with a loss at KU but made the tournament under the new rules. Cats played in the East Regionals, beating Penn and Boston College before losing to Syracuse in overtime heartbreaker.

Also, two of Hartman's best teams (77 and 80) played the eventual national champion before the final eight. Everyone knows the story about the 77, but the 80 team lost to Louisville in overtime. He never lost to a LaSalle of Cal Poly somewhere/something.


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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #835 on: February 02, 2021, 03:07:07 PM »
I like how there is a discussion about whether or not oscar will be fired because he sucks crap and also a discussion about whether or not oscar is an all time great based entirely on the win percentage of his worst couple seasons.

the problem is that if you look at that graphic Chingon posted, the red area is quite a bit larger than the green area over that 9 year span

I don't know what the problem is supposed to be. No one honestly ever talks about conference win percentage as if it's something they care about. They talk about things like tournament appearances and conference championships.

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #836 on: February 02, 2021, 03:42:34 PM »
I like how there is a discussion about whether or not oscar will be fired because he sucks crap and also a discussion about whether or not oscar is an all time great based entirely on the win percentage of his worst couple seasons.

the problem is that if you look at that graphic Chingon posted, the red area is quite a bit larger than the green area over that 9 year span

I don't know what the problem is supposed to be. No one honestly ever talks about conference win percentage as if it's something they care about. They talk about things like tournament appearances and conference championships.

if the graph isn't substantially green then you aren't winning any conference championships. And i don't recall the exact statistic, but basically if you aren't at least .500 in conference (so that would be neither green nor red) then you have little to no hope of making the NCAA tournament. hope that helps.

Offline chum1

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #837 on: February 02, 2021, 03:48:15 PM »
I like how there is a discussion about whether or not oscar will be fired because he sucks crap and also a discussion about whether or not oscar is an all time great based entirely on the win percentage of his worst couple seasons.

the problem is that if you look at that graphic Chingon posted, the red area is quite a bit larger than the green area over that 9 year span

I don't know what the problem is supposed to be. No one honestly ever talks about conference win percentage as if it's something they care about. They talk about things like tournament appearances and conference championships.

if the graph isn't substantially green then you aren't winning any conference championships. And i don't recall the exact statistic, but basically if you aren't at least .500 in conference (so that would be neither green nor red) then you have little to no hope of making the NCAA tournament. hope that helps.

Maybe Chingon could just do some graphs of conference championships and tournament appearences by coach. If that was indeed the point, I wonder why he didn't.

Offline ben ji

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #838 on: February 02, 2021, 03:49:13 PM »
Hartman had more highs and higher lows than oscar.  Was Hartman fired?  Also, I had no idea he randomly coached the women for 7 games in the 90s.

He has three conference titles compared to two for oscar. Jack's elite eights were all in 32 team tournaments and just one was in his last 12 seasons. Hard to compare "lowest low" but oscar never had a 4 year stinker run like Jack hNad at the end.


This is wrong. The NCAA first expanded the tournament to 48 teams in 1975. K-State lost the Big-8 championship in the final week with a loss at KU but made the tournament under the new rules. Cats played in the East Regionals, beating Penn and Boston College before losing to Syracuse in overtime heartbreaker.

Also, two of Hartman's best teams (77 and 80) played the eventual national champion before the final eight. Everyone knows the story about the 77, but the 80 team lost to Louisville in overtime. He never lost to a LaSalle of Cal Poly somewhere/something.

As a young whippersnapper I had no idea about 1977 so I had to google it

https://themercury.com/k_state_sports/k-states-memorable-1976-77-season-derailed-in-ncaa-tourney/article_3644ba7e-e414-5b2e-adbd-00cc7a32e2ca.html

Quote
"In the late going, it still came down to an opportunity and a chance to win when Evans took a shot from out in the corner and I went up and tipped it in. It was an obvious tip-in and an 'and-one' foul."

Bo Ellis fouled Winston on the play.

"Bo Ellis was like 6-(foot)-10 and I was like a foot above him and tipped the ball in," Winston said. "His hand hit me across my arm, and we were celebrating because they gave us an opportunity now to tie the game with a free throw.

"But a referee came in and blew his whistle and waved the basket off. The rule was so bad that they revisited it and changed it the next year at the NCAA meetings. They deemed it the ;Winston rule,' where a tip-in and a foul simultaneously would be considered a basket and a free-throw attempt."

With Winston's basket waved off, Marquette escaped with a 67-66 win and went on to win the national championship for head coach Al McGuire.

Winston has never forgotten the controversial tip-in-that-wasn't.

"Every basketball game I watch and I see a play similar to that, I just shake my head and think about how Marquette went on and won a national championship (beating North Carolina 67-59), but that could have been us, easily," Winston said. "I had to embrace it and when I went out into the community after that game, every K-State fan — and believe it or not, every KU and Missouri fan that came up to me and talked about it — said it should have counted."


This is wrong. The NCAA first expanded the tournament to 48 teams in 1975. K-State lost the Big-8 championship in the final week with a loss at KU but made the tournament under the new rules. Cats played in the East Regionals, beating Penn and Boston College before losing to Syracuse in overtime heartbreaker.

Also, two of Hartman's best teams (77 and 80) played the eventual national champion before the final eight. Everyone knows the story about the 77, but the 80 team lost to Louisville in overtime. He never lost to a LaSalle of Cal Poly somewhere/something.

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #839 on: February 02, 2021, 03:51:04 PM »
Hartman had more highs and higher lows than oscar.  Was Hartman fired?  Also, I had no idea he randomly coached the women for 7 games in the 90s.

He has three conference titles compared to two for oscar. Jack's elite eights were all in 32 team tournaments and just one was in his last 12 seasons. Hard to compare "lowest low" but oscar never had a 4 year stinker run like Jack hNad at the end.


This is wrong. The NCAA first expanded the tournament to 48 teams in 1975. K-State lost the Big-8 championship in the final week with a loss at KU but made the tournament under the new rules. Cats played in the East Regionals, beating Penn and Boston College before losing to Syracuse in overtime heartbreaker.

Also, two of Hartman's best teams (77 and 80) played the eventual national champion before the final eight. Everyone knows the story about the 77, but the 80 team lost to Louisville in overtime. He never lost to a LaSalle of Cal Poly somewhere/something.



:thumbs: my mistake!

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #840 on: February 02, 2021, 04:39:29 PM »
Hartman had more highs and higher lows than oscar.  Was Hartman fired?  Also, I had no idea he randomly coached the women for 7 games in the 90s.

Yeah the end of the 1995-96 season, right before Deb. The coach, Brian Agler, who incidentally went on to be one the oscar Weber on steroids of the WNBA, two championships, two firings in between those championships, got suspended mid year for paying players for doing camps they didn't do. Hartman was just hanging around Manhattan doing men's games for Raycom Sports so they asked him to jump in for the last month.

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #841 on: February 02, 2021, 04:42:00 PM »
I like how there is a discussion about whether or not oscar will be fired because he sucks crap and also a discussion about whether or not oscar is an all time great based entirely on the win percentage of his worst couple seasons.

the problem is that if you look at that graphic Chingon posted, the red area is quite a bit larger than the green area over that 9 year span

I don't know what the problem is supposed to be. No one honestly ever talks about conference win percentage as if it's something they care about. They talk about things like tournament appearances and conference championships.

if the graph isn't substantially green then you aren't winning any conference championships. And i don't recall the exact statistic, but basically if you aren't at least .500 in conference (so that would be neither green nor red) then you have little to no hope of making the NCAA tournament. hope that helps.

Maybe Chingon could just do some graphs of conference championships and tournament appearences by coach. If that was indeed the point, I wonder why he didn't.


Percentage of the time the coach took the team to NCAA Tournament

It has fun basketballs for the bars!

Offline EMAWzifried

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #842 on: February 02, 2021, 04:43:18 PM »
Hartman's slide at the end of his career was obviously due to his recruiting. I think like Snyder, he fell for his own coach-em-up hype. Yeah, he never got the top recruits but guys like Evans, Williams and Blackman were legit All-Americans. Norris Coleman was in his final year was the only player of that caliber he signed his final four seasons.
Oddly, he wouldn't have fallen so hard after 82 had he kept the freshmen he had. The Reid kid point guard whose dad was the Dodge City JC coach went on to win two POY Big 10 awards and two forwards had good careers in like the Mid American Conference. Hartman didn't give them enough playing time, especially the Reid kid who could have had more of Jankovich's minutes.
Developing team depth was a Hartman weakness. He just didn't use his bench. It definitely cost us against Marquette when Larry Dassie got in foul trouble.
Apropos the fire  Weber conversation and what sets Hartman much above Oscar was his teams always played well in the tournament and with a little luck could have easily make multiple final fours.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #843 on: February 02, 2021, 04:46:51 PM »
The Big 8 at the end of Hartman's stint was stupid good, so damn deep. Finishing at the bottom of a 10 team Big 12 isn't the same as finishing at the bottom of the Big 8 then. 7 of the 8 teams were routinely good and for the most part all spent years finishing in any scrambled order. Colorado was absolute trash, 90's A&M bad.

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #844 on: February 02, 2021, 04:51:49 PM »
Yeah, the whole oscar thing has run its course, imo.  He has a shelf life, and it's well past that now. 
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Offline EMAWzifried

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #845 on: February 02, 2021, 04:53:03 PM »
I like how there is a discussion about whether or not oscar will be fired because he sucks crap and also a discussion about whether or not oscar is an all time great based entirely on the win percentage of his worst couple seasons.

the problem is that if you look at that graphic Chingon posted, the red area is quite a bit larger than the green area over that 9 year span

I don't know what the problem is supposed to be. No one honestly ever talks about conference win percentage as if it's something they care about. They talk about things like tournament appearances and conference championships.

if the graph isn't substantially green then you aren't winning any conference championships. And i don't recall the exact statistic, but basically if you aren't at least .500 in conference (so that would be neither green nor red) then you have little to no hope of making the NCAA tournament. hope that helps.

Maybe Chingon could just do some graphs of conference championships and tournament appearences by coach. If that was indeed the point, I wonder why he didn't.


Percentage of the time the coach took the team to NCAA Tournament

It has fun basketballs for the bars!

Not a straight apples to apples comparison with the expansion of the tourney beyond league champs or even beyong 48 teams. -State didn't get invited in 76 despite winning 20 games and losing the title in the last week to Missouri. I read Garner one year tied KU for the crown, but a KC sports writer pal of Phog Allen basically gave the tourney berth to KU.

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #846 on: February 02, 2021, 05:01:13 PM »
Chingon, do something science-y that shows how close he’s been to what should’ve been expected when KSU hired him.

Offline EMAWzifried

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #847 on: February 02, 2021, 05:11:56 PM »
Probably near impossible to get the data, but it would be interesting to see how coaches performed against team's seeding in the tournament.

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #848 on: February 02, 2021, 05:12:23 PM »
Chingon, do something science-y that shows how close he’s been to what should’ve been expected when KSU hired him.

I'd like to see him at least 4.25 basketballs higher on that chart.

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Re: firebrucewebernow.com
« Reply #849 on: February 02, 2021, 05:17:03 PM »
I wonder if the play hard chart uses basketballs
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