Is Planned Hamburger more important than the entire good of America?

[DQ12]

Dlew, others, non religious reason to be anti abortion at any point? As opposed to most I'm not looking to trap anyone or do any other stupid crap, just curious what it would be.

I think if you believe that there's such a thing as "right" or "wrong," it's at least rational to be anti abortion.  At it's heart, it's a pretty simple argument:

1.  I think killing people is wrong.
2.  I think abortion is "killing people."
3.  I think abortion is wrong.

Step 2 is the only part in the general abortion debate that's worth discussing imo.  If step two is true, then, as insensitive as it sounds, I don't really give a crap about women's rights about the subject, or the burden on society.  I will say that there are decent arguments about rape that exist, and in those circumstances, things get very complicated.

That being said, I happen to fall on the side that Step 2 is true.  I understand how people could fall on the other side, and I respect that.  But I think they're wrong, and I think it's important.

How can you justify an exception for rape if you truly believe in #2?

I don't really remember. I forget exactly how the philosophy worked, but I remember reading it at the time and thinking "this complicates things."

[michigancat]

Dlew, others, non religious reason to be anti abortion at any point? As opposed to most I'm not looking to trap anyone or do any other stupid crap, just curious what it would be.

I think if you believe that there's such a thing as "right" or "wrong," it's at least rational to be anti abortion.  At it's heart, it's a pretty simple argument:

1.  I think killing people is wrong.
2.  I think abortion is "killing people."
3.  I think abortion is wrong.

Step 2 is the only part in the general abortion debate that's worth discussing imo.  If step two is true, then, as insensitive as it sounds, I don't really give a crap about women's rights about the subject, or the burden on society.  I will say that there are decent arguments about rape that exist, and in those circumstances, things get very complicated.

That being said, I happen to fall on the side that Step 2 is true.  I understand how people could fall on the other side, and I respect that.  But I think they're wrong, and I think it's important.

How can you justify an exception for rape if you truly believe in #2?

I don't really remember. I forget exactly how the philosophy worked, but I remember reading it at the time and thinking "this complicates things."

Do you not believe that a child conceived via rape is a person? Or are the complications the mother's rights?

[sys]

the rape exception makes no sense.  i'd love for dlew to post his rationale.

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

the rape exception makes no sense.  i'd love for dlew to post his rationale.

Only from a standpoint of political pragmatism.

[DQ12]

the rape exception makes no sense.  i'd love for dlew to post his rationale.

there is no chance i remember the paper i read it in.  it was years ago. 

i think it was an argument based on the violinist thought experiment, but specifically applying it to rape situations.  for those interested, here is a summary of the original violinist argument:

In "A Defense of Abortion", Thomson grants for the sake of argument that the fetus has a right to life, but defends the permissibility of abortion by appeal to a thought experiment:

You wake up in the morning and find yourself back to back in bed with an unconscious violinist. A famous unconscious violinist. He has been found to have a fatal kidney ailment, and the Society of Music Lovers has canvassed all the available medical records and found that you alone have the right blood type to help. They have therefore kidnapped you, and last night the violinist's circulatory system was plugged into yours, so that your kidneys can be used to extract poisons from his blood as well as your own. [If he is unplugged from you now, he will die; but] in nine months he will have recovered from his ailment, and can safely be unplugged from you.[4]

Thomson takes it that you may now permissibly unplug yourself from the violinist even though this will cause his death: the right to life, Thomson says, does not include the right to use another person's body, and so by unplugging the violinist you do not violate his right to life but merely deprive him of something—the use of your body—to which he has no right. "f you do allow him to go on using your kidneys, this is a kindness on your part, and not something he can claim from you as his due."[5]

For the same reason, Thomson says, abortion does not violate the fetus's legitimate rights, but merely deprives the fetus of something—the use of the pregnant woman's body and life-support functions—to which it has no right. Thus, by choosing to terminate her pregnancy, a woman does not violate any moral obligation; rather, a woman who carries her pregnancy to term is a 'Good Samaritan' who goes beyond her obligations.[6]

[Tobias]

political pragmatism seems like a weird thing to have personal conviction about

[sys]

i don't see how the rape baby has any less right to appropriate the woman's body than the love baby does.

[DQ12]

i don't see how the rape baby has any less right to appropriate the woman's body than the love baby does.

i don't know.  maybe it just complicates it for me. 

i think i stand in the anti-abortion camp even for rape. but i think the violinist is a pretty good argument for cases of rape and one that puts anti-abortion people like myself in a position where we have to make an unsavory argument in order to remain consistent. 

[star seed 7]

looks like banning abortion causes your country to be a shithole.... decent reason to pro-choice, sd

[star seed 7]

i'm fascinated by "socioeconomic grounds".  i'll have to google that later

[michigancat]

i don't see how the rape baby has any less right to appropriate the woman's body than the love baby does.

i don't know.  maybe it just complicates it for me. 

i think i stand in the anti-abortion camp even for rape. but i think the violinist is a pretty good argument for cases of rape and one that puts anti-abortion people like myself in a position where we have to make an unsavory argument in order to remain consistent.

I don't see how rape is especially related to the violinist scenario, but other pregnancies are not.

[Cartierfor3]

Twins division title chances are hamburged.

[MakeItRain]

inventing better birth control would be the most effective anti-abortion measure possible.

The IUD's on the market are pretty damn salty.

They have pretty terrible side effects for a lot of women.

[MakeItRain]

i'm fascinated by "socioeconomic grounds".  i'll have to google that later

I got ya', blood.

http://worldabortionlaws.com/questions.html

The interesting thing about this link is the stat in the right margin that seems to slap the theory that illegal abortions aren't dangerous theory right in the mouf.

Here's another link to a pdf that essentially states what the laws/restrictions are in these countries designated as socioeconomic, it really isn't socioeconomic at all, as a matter of fact I don't understand why America doesn't fall into this category because abortion laws differ by state, a distinct sub group of the socioeconomic group.

[DQ12]

i don't see how the rape baby has any less right to appropriate the woman's body than the love baby does.

i don't know.  maybe it just complicates it for me. 

i think i stand in the anti-abortion camp even for rape. but i think the violinist is a pretty good argument for cases of rape and one that puts anti-abortion people like myself in a position where we have to make an unsavory argument in order to remain consistent.

I don't see how rape is especially related to the violinist scenario, but other pregnancies are not.

Really? 

The person who was hooked to the violinist was kidnapped -- she had absolutely no part in the circumstances that led her to being hooked up to the person.  Kind of like how a raped pregnant woman had absolutely no part in the circumstances that led her to being hooked up to the baby. 

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

Why is it a concert violinist? Is that supposed to make this person like, much much more important than anyone else? Or can the violinist play soothing music during the nine months? Just seemed like a weird choice.

Also, if I were the violinist, I'd be really really pissed at the person who kidnapped me and put me in this position. Whereas I think a child of rape is probably grateful for having been made in the first place, even under horrible circumstances. That's where the analogy doesn't hold up.

[DQ12]

Why is it a concert violinist? Is that supposed to make this person like, much much more important than anyone else? Or can the violinist play soothing music during the nine months? Just seemed like a weird choice.

Also, if I were the violinist, I'd be really really pissed at the person who kidnapped me and put me in this position. Whereas I think a child of rape is probably grateful for having been made in the first place, even under horrible circumstances. That's where the analogy doesn't hold up.

The fact that he's a violinist isn't really important other than it factors into the utilitarian calculus that he's a valuable member of society.  I always assumed that from the utilitarian perspective, the violinist was more "valuable" than the kidnapped person.

And just to be clear, the violinist wasn't the person kidnapped.  The person hooked up to the machine was the one kidnapped.

[Mrs. Gooch]

Ksu, your argument is flawed in that an aborted fetus will never miss what it never had. Life.

Ok. New exercise. Go up to that kid and say: "Looking at you makes me very sad. I wish you had been aborted. You never would have known the difference." I hope that kid is old enough to punch you in the face, or at least kick you in the balls.

If you said it to this girl, she would probably agree with you.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3194836/Parents-sue-hospital-psychological-trauma-failed-abortion-cost-bringing-daughter-14-incredibly-supports-700-000-claim-despite-knowing-never-wanted.html

[Mrs. Gooch]

Why is it a concert violinist? Is that supposed to make this person like, much much more important than anyone else? Or can the violinist play soothing music during the nine months? Just seemed like a weird choice.

Also, if I were the violinist, I'd be really really pissed at the person who kidnapped me and put me in this position. Whereas I think a child of rape is probably grateful for having been made in the first place, even under horrible circumstances. That's where the analogy doesn't hold up.

The fact that he's a violinist isn't really important other than it factors into the utilitarian calculus that he's a valuable member of society.  I always assumed that from the utilitarian perspective, the violinist was more "valuable" than the kidnapped person.

And just to be clear, the violinist wasn't the person kidnapped.  The person hooked up to the machine was the one kidnapped.

So the violinist was in on the plan to kidnap the other person? Well eff him them.

[puniraptor]

ok, now do the same thought experiment but with one important wrinkle: change the violinist to Kanye. what do you do?

[mocat]

all of a sudden michigancat is anti-abortion is what happens there

[DQ12]

I guess it's a more complicated thought experiment than I thought.

Anyhow, my point is that the way I saw it, it was a pretty logical argument for rape exceptions.

[michigancat]

i don't see how the rape baby has any less right to appropriate the woman's body than the love baby does.

i don't know.  maybe it just complicates it for me. 

i think i stand in the anti-abortion camp even for rape. but i think the violinist is a pretty good argument for cases of rape and one that puts anti-abortion people like myself in a position where we have to make an unsavory argument in order to remain consistent.

I don't see how rape is especially related to the violinist scenario, but other pregnancies are not.

Really? 

The person who was hooked to the violinist was kidnapped -- she had absolutely no part in the circumstances that led her to being hooked up to the person.  Kind of like how a raped pregnant woman had absolutely no part in the circumstances that led her to being hooked up to the baby.

Yes, but I didn't think that was really the  point of the exercise. The rights of each person hooked up to the machine don't change if say, there's a birth control failure, IMO.

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

Why is it a concert violinist? Is that supposed to make this person like, much much more important than anyone else? Or can the violinist play soothing music during the nine months? Just seemed like a weird choice.

Also, if I were the violinist, I'd be really really pissed at the person who kidnapped me and put me in this position. Whereas I think a child of rape is probably grateful for having been made in the first place, even under horrible circumstances. That's where the analogy doesn't hold up.

The fact that he's a violinist isn't really important other than it factors into the utilitarian calculus that he's a valuable member of society.  I always assumed that from the utilitarian perspective, the violinist was more "valuable" than the kidnapped person.

And just to be clear, the violinist wasn't the person kidnapped.  The person hooked up to the machine was the one kidnapped.

So the violinist was in on the plan to kidnap the other person? Well eff him them.

Right. Either the violinist is an bad person, or the violinist is a victim. Either way, it isn't a very good comparison to a rape conception.

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

Ksu, your argument is flawed in that an aborted fetus will never miss what it never had. Life.

Ok. New exercise. Go up to that kid and say: "Looking at you makes me very sad. I wish you had been aborted. You never would have known the difference." I hope that kid is old enough to punch you in the face, or at least kick you in the balls.

If you said it to this girl, she would probably agree with you.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3194836/Parents-sue-hospital-psychological-trauma-failed-abortion-cost-bringing-daughter-14-incredibly-supports-700-000-claim-despite-knowing-never-wanted.html

Wow. That's pretty mumped up. I mean, I know it's all about the money, but still pretty mumped up for anyone (who's not suicidal, which would be diagnosed as a mental disorder) to say "yeah, I wish I had been aborted." For extra kicks, did you notice the part where the girl says she wants to be a psychologist when she grows up? That was a nice touch. "Hi - I wish I had been aborted. Now how can I help you diagnose and work through your mental issues?"