Well hello there SAE

[DQ12]

I mean, it all depends on the group of guys.  Peer pressure can be good.  I can say that I'm confident that there were a number of hayseedy quasi-racisty guys that entered DU who dropped those ideas/habits extremely quickly due to positive influences and exposure to real life minorities in our house.

I think that if there's a bunch of dumbass racists all living under one roof together, then yeah, it's going to continue to breed dumbass racist culture.  But if there's enough smart, well liked dudes with decent world-views, then frats can be a breeding ground for positive influences.  Maybe that's idealistic, but I can say that I think I'm a better/more well rounded dude than I would've been had I not joined.

I'm sure you're right. However, couldn't the same be said about any group of intelligent people living together without a Greek social fraternity affiliation?

Absolutely.  Although I'm not sure those same "good peer pressures" could have existed in a less intimate setting, like in a dorm for instance.  I'm not married to the idea of greek tradition or anything like that. 

[Kat Kid]

it's really disappointing that they expelled them.  I hope the kids sue and put OU's administration in its place.  I mean, the whole reason why people go to college is learning and exposure to different people and ideas.

how can any educator support the decision by OU's president?  makes no sense other than a bullshit PR/PC move.

Agree.

[ednksu]

it's really disappointing that they expelled them.  I hope the kids sue and put OU's administration in its place.  I mean, the whole reason why people go to college is learning and exposure to different people and ideas.

how can any educator support the decision by OU's president?  makes no sense other than a bullshit PR/PC move.

Agree.

Ummm probably because these kids are only learning to be incredibly racist shits at OU?  Thereby making OU look like racists fucks by association?

I for one don't mind this kind of action. Many of the court cases don't represent what is going on here in my opinion.  Previous cases were about performances or something vaguely political, not this kind of overt offensiveness.  Although I wonder how this would carry if it was done in their version of Bosco Commons, a specific free speech zone on campus.

[pissclams]

if you're dumb enough to conclude that OU is racist (that doesn't even make sense) because of a couple of frat kids singing a racist song, then you probably should have stuck around college for a little bit longer

omg, there's racists kids that go to OU?  well, let's just kick them out and clean this place right up.  good old racist-free OU, what a great place to be.

[Dugout DickStone]

man, glad I was never in a frat.

Girls tho

[TownieCat]

http://www.k-state.edu/media/newsreleases/mar15/saestatement31015.html

[CNS]

JFC, KSU, not everything revolves around you.

[Bqqkie Pimp]

If anything should be banned, it's organiztional sing-alongs of all kinds. What the eff? How is this crap normal?

getting super drunk and singing songs that you and your bros all know is kind of fun. i mean it seriously is. deny?

Totally agree. I'm thinking of organizations of adults with some sort of official membership and traditionally sung songs. Shriners? Elks? Frats, apparently. I would feel stupid singing songs like that, which means that everyone else should, too.

And you know this, how?  Have you done it?  Like Rick said, some of that crap is a rite of passage and IS a lot of fun at the time...  It happens with all the groups you mentioned and I might add sports teams and the military.

I know there's some guys on here that are currently in the same fraternity I'm a member of and I wonder what's happened with some of our "inappropriate songs".  While the ones we sang on certain drunken occasions weren't racist, they certainly had some stuff that would have every feminist on the planet just foaming at the mouth...

Along those same lines, how many on here are current students that have been in the fOOD during a KU game and joined in the "eff KU" chant during sandstorm?  I see that to be very much along the same lines... Hopefully that makes sense and I don't need to explain in detail.

[Bqqkie Pimp]

Meanwhile, at Texas State...  The president of the SAE chapter there is currently showing his ass on twitter.

https://twitter.com/PresidentTKC

 

[Institutional Control]

From that Twitter account...

https://twitter.com/CollegeBrackets/status/574803563538481153

Mind blown

[Mr Bread]

Quite the showing by michigancat itt. 

[chum1]

If anything should be banned, it's organiztional sing-alongs of all kinds. What the eff? How is this crap normal?

getting super drunk and singing songs that you and your bros all know is kind of fun. i mean it seriously is. deny?

Totally agree. I'm thinking of organizations of adults with some sort of official membership and traditionally sung songs. Shriners? Elks? Frats, apparently. I would feel stupid singing songs like that, which means that everyone else should, too.

And you know this, how?  Have you done it?  Like Rick said, some of that crap is a rite of passage and IS a lot of fun at the time...  It happens with all the groups you mentioned and I might add sports teams and the military.

I know there's some guys on here that are currently in the same fraternity I'm a member of and I wonder what's happened with some of our "inappropriate songs".  While the ones we sang on certain drunken occasions weren't racist, they certainly had some stuff that would have every feminist on the planet just foaming at the mouth...

Along those same lines, how many on here are current students that have been in the fOOD during a KU game and joined in the "eff KU" chant during sandstorm?  I see that to be very much along the same lines... Hopefully that makes sense and I don't need to explain in detail.

I agree with all of that. Still, it should be banned if anything is.

[0.42]

Meanwhile, at Texas State...  The president of the SAE chapter there is currently showing his ass on twitter.

https://twitter.com/PresidentTKC

 

oh good

[ednksu]

if you're dumb enough to conclude that OU is racist (that doesn't even make sense) because of a couple of frat kids singing a racist song, then you probably should have stuck around college for a little bit longer

omg, there's racists kids that go to OU?  well, let's just kick them out and clean this place right up.  good old racist-free OU, what a great place to be.

yeah because endemic generational racism that has been condoned by not smashing it is clearly the mark of a non-racist institution. 
people who allow racism to fester should be brought under the same scrutiny as racists.

[ednksu]

http://www.foxsports.com/college-football/outkick-the-coverage/oklahoma-stands-tall-against-racism-weak-against-violence-031015

CN: OU football makes public display against racism, why no display about domestic violence/antigay violence/gender violence

[michigancat]

I mean, it all depends on the group of guys.  Peer pressure can be good.  I can say that I'm confident that there were a number of hayseedy quasi-racisty guys that entered DU who dropped those ideas/habits extremely quickly due to positive influences and exposure to real life minorities in our house.

I think that if there's a bunch of dumbass racists all living under one roof together, then yeah, it's going to continue to breed dumbass racist culture.  But if there's enough smart, well liked dudes with decent world-views, then frats can be a breeding ground for positive influences.  Maybe that's idealistic, but I can say that I think I'm a better/more well rounded dude than I would've been had I not joined.

I'm sure you're right. However, couldn't the same be said about any group of intelligent people living together without a Greek social fraternity affiliation?

Absolutely.  Although I'm not sure those same "good peer pressures" could have existed in a less intimate setting, like in a dorm for instance.  I'm not married to the idea of greek tradition or anything like that. 

then why do you have a problem with me questioning the idea of whether or not the Greek tradition is necessary?

[DQ12]

Of course greek tradition isn't "necessary."  Nothing is "necessary."  Measuring something's worth by asking whether or not it's necessary is dumb.

But had I boycotted "greek tradition" because it isn't necessary, then I would've lost the great experience I had.  If you're advocating universities get rid of greek houses and replace them with something similar that offers the good things I described without the bad things associated with greek life, then I'd be all for it.  I'd be surprised if that could happen.

[Dugout DickStone]

Frats take themselves too seriously and I say that as someone who fratted out incredibly hard and still hang with lots of my frat bros.

[The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep]

Frats take themselves too seriously and I say that as someone who fratted out incredibly hard and still hang with lots of my frat bros.

yup. funny to look back on some of the things we argued about and how meaningless they are now.

[michigancat]

But had I boycotted "greek tradition" because it isn't necessary, then I would've lost the great experience I had.  If you're advocating universities get rid of greek houses and replace them with something similar that offers the good things I described without the bad things associated with greek life, then I'd be all for it.  I'd be surprised if that could happen.

I think it should be considered. And yeah, I'd be surprised if it could happen, but I think MUCH more could be done to make them safer and more inclusive. For example, I think making all houses 100% dry would be smart for KSU (even though Pat Bosco insists there aren't problems with Greeks at KSU).

And when I was looking for universities with a dry Greek system, I found more about SAE - they seem to be some real shitbags (broad brush talk):

The two S.A.E. brothers were asked trivia questions about the fraternity. If they gave a wrong answer they were supposed to drink a shot of vodka. As George Desdunes’s roommate would later tell the police, “The purpose is to tie up the brother and get him drunk.”

The young man sitting on the couch beside Mr. Desdunes recalled downing four or five shots of vodka in 20 minutes and then vomiting into a garbage pail. The two were fed Pixy Stix, chocolate chowder, strawberry syrup, a bite of a sandwich, hot sauce. “Something that felt like dish soap was dripped on my face,” said the 20-year-old sophomore, whose name was redacted from the police report. He drank more shots and vomited again.

Eventually, Mr. Desdunes passed out and was loaded into the back seat of a Honda Pilot belonging to one of the brothers. At the fraternity, it took several people to carry him to his room, but when they found it locked, he was brought to the library and left on a leather couch.

They tilted his head, said Mr. Williams, so “he would vomit onto the floor” and not choke. Then they walked downstairs to the kitchen, made themselves something to eat and went to bed.

The S.A.E. house was quiet a few hours later, at 6:45 a.m., when the cleaning man and his father arrived for work. The place was worse than usual. There had been a beer pong tournament that night. Plastic cups were strewn all over. Furniture was broken. The room smelled like stale Keystone Light. After finishing the toilets, the younger cleaner walked by the library and noticed a student in a brown hoodie lying still. “I could see what looked like vomit or mucous on his mouth,” he told the police. “I tried to wake him by grabbing his foot to make sure he was O.K. There was no response.” Mr. Desdunes’s right pant leg was rolled up. One of the zip ties was around his ankle; a second zip tie with duct tape lay on the floor beside the couch.

The cleaners called 911.

When the police and firefighters arrived, they found an unresponsive male. He was not breathing, had no pulse and was cold to the touch. They laid him on the floor, cut off his sweatshirt, suctioned his throat and applied CPR. He was put on a stretcher and taken to a hospital in an ambulance.

The rescue workers remarked later that there was not a single fraternity brother in sight, just the cleaners, who told the police what they knew, then went downstairs to finish the kitchen.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/15/education/edlife/a-hazing-at-cornell.html?_r=0

This isn’t the first time this fraternity has been subjected to such scrutiny over overtly racist acts. In 1992, Texas A&M University fined its chapter $1,000 after it threw a “jungle party” attended by frat brothers in blackface. Then in 2002, Syracuse University suspended its chapter after one of its members went to a bar in blackface. As recently as 2013, the fraternity got suspended following allegations it had photographed African American students while pledges recited rap lyrics laced with racial slurs.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/03/09/oklahoma-frats-racist-chant-highlights-the-exclusionary-roots-of-greek-life/

[Dugout DickStone]

This is not going to end up fresh for SAE

[michigancat]

George Desdunes, (the guy SAE let die after they kidnapped him) was black.

[DQ12]

I think making all houses 100% dry would be smart for KSU (even though Pat Bosco insists there aren't problems with Greeks at KSU).

Yep.  I'd have no problem with that.

[gatoveintisiet]

While the situation at OU needed to be dealt with swiftly, I should say that I should no longer be astounded by the broad brush that some at GE paint with.   It has to be goEMAW'ing, right?   The immediate sewing of individual actions into the fabric of entire communities, groups, institutions, states and even countries is, in a word; astounding, albeit fascinating.

I agree, sounds an awful lot like bigotry to me.

[mocat]

just so we're clear, when a house is "dry", that means they can't have kegs or hard liquor physically in the fraternity house, right?