The Brad Underwood Watch aka The Man who made Frank look good

[ksupamplemousse]

Using one of the top 3 or 4 coaches in the country as an example is not a valid example.  I mean, you can't say that Bill Self could do it, then say if someone can't, they just aren't a good coach.  That is ridiculous.

I'm just trying to make the point that good coaches almost always are able to get to teams that have below average talent to play at an average to above average level. I may have used some hyperbole in the process. There are exceptions to that, but even then, it doesn't take them long to get enough talent in the program to get them to that level. Scott Drew took over the biggest mess imaginable and had them in the tournament within five years, and that's a program with almost no history of success. Good coaches eventually overcome bad situations almost 100% of the time.

[kso_FAN]

I look at Mizzou hoops and fear I'm looking into a crystal ball of the future of KSU hoops.


Actually its v similar to the ghost of KSU hoops present when I think about it. Dang it this season sucks.

Missouri is much, much worse right now. The Kim Anderson experiment is a lot worse than the oscar Weber version IMO.

[steve dave]

you give me the most talent in a conference and the ability to keep that talent happy, motivated, & out of trouble and I'm going to run the "screen away from the guy with the ball" offense and win that league more often than not. maybe I have to read some basketball blog to get a few inbounds plays and press breaks but I'm winning that rough rider.

[CNS]

Scott Drew is/was one of the best around at getting kids.  He gets crazy talent to come there. 

[Cartierfor3]

college basketball isn't Hoosiers. you can't coach up a bunch of nonathletic dorks to middling success. the single most important factor in winning games is having good players. it's so far out in front of all other factors that is essentially makes them meaningless. all of a coach's most important duties revolve around that talent. acquiring it, keeping it happy, keeping it out of trouble, keeping it motivated, etc. Xs and Os are the most overrated part of basketball coaching.

even Hickory had Jimmy Chitwood.

[WildcatNkilt]

I actually think we have pretty good players and talent that is not used to its full potential.  I see this team as having the same talent as Huggin's year and he took that team (in one year after being at a horrid level for many years before) to NIT and first 4 out of the tournament.  Even with Gip and Nino leaving, I think the team has enough talent for a good coach to come in and take them to the tournament. 

Average talent can reach a tournament of 64 teams every year if they are well coached.  Underwood seems to know his crap when it comes to getting the most out of players.

[ksupamplemousse]

you give me the most talent in a conference and the ability to keep that talent happy, motivated, & out of trouble and I'm going to run the "screen away from the guy with the ball" offense and win that league more often than not. maybe I have to read some basketball blog to get a few inbounds plays and press breaks but I'm winning that rough rider.

I'm not talking about whether it's more advantageous to have good players or good coaching. I'm arguing you can get a shitty roster to the CBI (or better) the majority of the time by replacing a bad basketball coach with a good basketball coach.

[steve dave]

you give me the most talent in a conference and the ability to keep that talent happy, motivated, & out of trouble and I'm going to run the "screen away from the guy with the ball" offense and win that league more often than not. maybe I have to read some basketball blog to get a few inbounds plays and press breaks but I'm winning that rough rider.

I'm not talking about whether it's more advantageous to have good players or good coaching. I'm arguing you can get a shitty roster to the CBI (or better) the majority of the time by replacing a bad basketball coach with a good basketball coach.

and I'm arguing that's horseshit

[sonofdaxjones]

No coach is a slam dunk.   Every good coach was given a chance and a risk was taken.

As has been well documented at this juncture, The Iron Dukes (the power brokers at Duke) wanted Coach K's head on a platter during his first couple of years in Durham. 

Prior to Illinois, Bill Self was a moderately successful coach at Tulsa. 

Lon Kruger hit the eject button at multiple schools just ahead of seasons that would have gotten him fired. 

[CNS]

I actually think we have pretty good players and talent that is not used to its full potential.  I see this team as having the same talent as Huggin's year and he took that team (in one year after being at a horrid level for many years before) to NIT and first 4 out of the tournament.  Even with Gip and Nino leaving, I think the team has enough talent for a good coach to come in and take them to the tournament. 

Average talent can reach a tournament of 64 teams every year if they are well coached.  Underwood seems to know his crap when it comes to getting the most out of players.

I have no doubt that we should be in the tournament with this team. 

[pissclams]

to that point, i don't think underwood could recruit to k-state

[steve dave]

to that point, i don't think underwood could recruit to k-state

that's why I don't want him. I mean, I want him more than oscar but not more than some other guy probably.

[CNS]

agreed.  If Brad could, I feel like we would have already seen it.  That said, I have no clue if any of our past studs came because Brad signed them when he was an assistant.

[Cartierfor3]

To SD's point, the best thing Norman Dale did wasn't the "four passes before a shot" strategy, it was getting Jimmy Chitwood to play hard and be happy playing hoops.

[pissclams]

i would rather have henson over underwood.  and barf for me just typing that.

[steve dave]

i would rather have henson over underwood.  and barf for me just typing that.

yeah, agree on both points

[steve dave]

To SD's point, the best thing Norman Dale did wasn't the "four passes before a shot" strategy, it was getting Jimmy Chitwood to play hard and be happy playing hoops.

that's a great point cf3

[kso_FAN]

I actually think we have pretty good players and talent that is not used to its full potential.  I see this team as having the same talent as Huggin's year and he took that team (in one year after being at a horrid level for many years before) to NIT and first 4 out of the tournament.  Even with Gip and Nino leaving, I think the team has enough talent for a good coach to come in and take them to the tournament. 

Average talent can reach a tournament of 64 teams every year if they are well coached.  Underwood seems to know his crap when it comes to getting the most out of players.

I have no doubt that we should be in the tournament with this team. 

With our point guard play, I'm not sure about that. I think we have small, average point guards for a major conference team and that makes it tough to win. I'm not sure any coach is coming and coaching up Jevon/Nigel that much. They are probably just MVC level talents.

To SD's point, the best thing Norman Dale did wasn't the "four passes before a shot" strategy, it was getting Jimmy Chitwood to play hard and be happy playing hoops.

that's a great point cf3

Yeah, using Hoosiers as the example doesn't work, because in real life Milan had Indiana's Mr. Basketball in Bobby Plump (Chitwood). So yeah, the small school with the best player in the state might just win the state title.

[The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep]

you give me the most talent in a conference and the ability to keep that talent happy, motivated, & out of trouble and I'm going to run the "screen away from the guy with the ball" offense and win that league more often than not. maybe I have to read some basketball blog to get a few inbounds plays and press breaks but I'm winning that rough rider.

seems like this is more than oscar has done.

[Panjandrum]

I actually think we have pretty good players and talent that is not used to its full potential.  I see this team as having the same talent as Huggin's year and he took that team (in one year after being at a horrid level for many years before) to NIT and first 4 out of the tournament.  Even with Gip and Nino leaving, I think the team has enough talent for a good coach to come in and take them to the tournament. 

Average talent can reach a tournament of 64 teams every year if they are well coached.  Underwood seems to know his crap when it comes to getting the most out of players.

I have no doubt that we should be in the tournament with this team. 

With our point guard play, I'm not sure about that. I think we have small, average point guards for a major conference team and that makes it tough to win. I'm not sure any coach is coming and coaching up Jevon/Nigel that much. They are probably just MVC level talents.

To SD's point, the best thing Norman Dale did wasn't the "four passes before a shot" strategy, it was getting Jimmy Chitwood to play hard and be happy playing hoops.

that's a great point cf3

Yeah, using Hoosiers as the example doesn't work, because in real life Milan had Indiana's Mr. Basketball in Bobby Plump (Chitwood). So yeah, the small school with the best player in the state might just win the state title.

For crying out loud, Larry Bird took Indiana State to the NCAA finals.

I mean the precedent is there all over the place.  One extremely dominant player can make all the difference in basketball.

[The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep]

For crying out loud, Larry Bird took Indiana State to the NCAA finals.

I mean the precedent is there all over the place.  One extremely dominant player can make all the difference in basketball.

kevin durant, steph curry, blake griffin.

[Panjandrum]

to that point, i don't think underwood could recruit to k-state

I have no idea how connected Brad is, but I think getting/keeping a recruiter or two wouldn't hurt.

In some fantasy scenario where we fire oscar for Brad, I wonder how likely it is that we could keep Brooks and/or Frazier, or if he'd even want to.

I think we could hold on to Brooks.  And it's good that Brad has been spending a lot of time in Texas building relationships.  That has to help a little bit.

[steve dave]

well, outside of foster brooks and frazier haven't recruited for crap so I'm all for cleaning house

[ksupamplemousse]

I agree that our next coach needs to be able to recruit at a high level. I won't be real happy going to the CBI/CIT every year because our coach is scheming us to a .500 record. I don't necessarily think that it's a foregone conclusion that Brad can't recruit at this level. He's got two three star kids committed to play for him next year, and for the Southland conference I'm pretty sure landing kids that are even listed in recruiting databases is considered 'killing it'. Don't know if that recruiting success would translate to this level, but it sure doesn't say that it can't.

[Mr Bread]

I actually think we have pretty good players and talent that is not used to its full potential.  I see this team as having the same talent as Huggin's year and he took that team (in one year after being at a horrid level for many years before) to NIT and first 4 out of the tournament.  Even with Gip and Nino leaving, I think the team has enough talent for a good coach to come in and take them to the tournament. 

Average talent can reach a tournament of 64 teams every year if they are well coached.  Underwood seems to know his crap when it comes to getting the most out of players.

That's what people said about oscar early on at Illinois and rough ridin' K-State.  Nobody knows crap about Underwood yet.