The Brad Underwood Watch aka The Man who made Frank look good

[Mr Bread]

Using one of the top 3 or 4 coaches in the country as an example is not a valid example.  I mean, you can't say that Bill Self could do it, then say if someone can't, they just aren't a good coach.  That is ridiculous.

I'm just trying to make the point that good coaches almost always are able to get to teams that have below average talent to play at an average to above average level. I may have used some hyperbole in the process. There are exceptions to that, but even then, it doesn't take them long to get enough talent in the program to get them to that level. Scott Drew took over the biggest mess imaginable and had them in the tournament within five years, and that's a program with almost no history of success. Good coaches eventually overcome bad situations almost 100% of the time.

Good coaches don't often have below average talent and when they do they struggle.  Drew is a great example.  They were absolute crap for four years before he got good players. 


2003–04   Baylor   8–21    3–13    11th   
2004–05   Baylor   9–19    1–15    12th   
2005–06   Baylor   4–13    4–12    12th   
2006–07   Baylor   15–16  4–12    11th   

Name an actual real-world example of a good coach having below average talent that you can think of that didn't result in a poor season (missed the postseason altogether seems to be your barometer). 

[Panjandrum]

I actually think we have pretty good players and talent that is not used to its full potential.  I see this team as having the same talent as Huggin's year and he took that team (in one year after being at a horrid level for many years before) to NIT and first 4 out of the tournament.  Even with Gip and Nino leaving, I think the team has enough talent for a good coach to come in and take them to the tournament. 

Average talent can reach a tournament of 64 teams every year if they are well coached.  Underwood seems to know his crap when it comes to getting the most out of players.

That's what people said about oscar early on at Illinois and rough ridin' K-State.  Nobody knows crap about Underwood yet.

I think Frank trusted him a lot for strategic decisions, but that's based on a lot of anecdotal stories.  That, combined with his quick success at SFA, means there may be some evidence of his tactical ability.

[nicname]

No coach is a slam dunk.   Every good coach was given a chance and a risk was taken.

As has been well documented at this juncture, The Iron Dukes (the power brokers at Duke) wanted Coach K's head on a platter during his first couple of years in Durham. 

Prior to Illinois, Bill Self was a moderately successful coach at Tulsa. 

Lon Kruger hit the eject button at multiple schools just ahead of seasons that would have gotten him fired.

Moderately successful? GTFOOH.

[ksupamplemousse]

Using one of the top 3 or 4 coaches in the country as an example is not a valid example.  I mean, you can't say that Bill Self could do it, then say if someone can't, they just aren't a good coach.  That is ridiculous.

I'm just trying to make the point that good coaches almost always are able to get to teams that have below average talent to play at an average to above average level. I may have used some hyperbole in the process. There are exceptions to that, but even then, it doesn't take them long to get enough talent in the program to get them to that level. Scott Drew took over the biggest mess imaginable and had them in the tournament within five years, and that's a program with almost no history of success. Good coaches eventually overcome bad situations almost 100% of the time.

Good coaches don't often have below average talent and when they do they struggle.  Drew is a great example.  They were absolute crap for four years before he got good players. 


2003–04   Baylor   8–21    3–13    11th   
2004–05   Baylor   9–19    1–15    12th   
2005–06   Baylor   4–13    4–12    12th   
2006–07   Baylor   15–16  4–12    11th   

Name an actual real-world example of a good coach having below average talent that you can think of that didn't result in a poor season (missed the postseason altogether seems to be your barometer).

Bob Huggins at K-State.

[sonofdaxjones]

No coach is a slam dunk.   Every good coach was given a chance and a risk was taken.

As has been well documented at this juncture, The Iron Dukes (the power brokers at Duke) wanted Coach K's head on a platter during his first couple of years in Durham. 

Prior to Illinois, Bill Self was a moderately successful coach at Tulsa. 

Lon Kruger hit the eject button at multiple schools just ahead of seasons that would have gotten him fired.

Moderately successful? GTFOOH.

Relax squawk, I clearly put him in the category of "good coaches"

[sys]

I see this team as having the same talent as Huggin's year.

no rough ridin' way.  they're similar in that both teams lacked quality big bigs, and had pg problems.  but the wings on the huggins team were about 100x better.

[Mr Bread]

Using one of the top 3 or 4 coaches in the country as an example is not a valid example.  I mean, you can't say that Bill Self could do it, then say if someone can't, they just aren't a good coach.  That is ridiculous.

I'm just trying to make the point that good coaches almost always are able to get to teams that have below average talent to play at an average to above average level. I may have used some hyperbole in the process. There are exceptions to that, but even then, it doesn't take them long to get enough talent in the program to get them to that level. Scott Drew took over the biggest mess imaginable and had them in the tournament within five years, and that's a program with almost no history of success. Good coaches eventually overcome bad situations almost 100% of the time.

Good coaches don't often have below average talent and when they do they struggle.  Drew is a great example.  They were absolute crap for four years before he got good players. 


2003–04   Baylor   8–21    3–13    11th   
2004–05   Baylor   9–19    1–15    12th   
2005–06   Baylor   4–13    4–12    12th   
2006–07   Baylor   15–16  4–12    11th   

Name an actual real-world example of a good coach having below average talent that you can think of that didn't result in a poor season (missed the postseason altogether seems to be your barometer).

Bob Huggins at K-State.

An NBA player (former four-star recruit) surrounded by several junior/senior three-star players isn't below average.  That's really rough ridin' stupid that you wrote that. 

[Panjandrum]

I don't know why people still consistently underrate how good Cartier was.  He's only bumped around the NBA for the last eight years...

[ksupamplemousse]

Using one of the top 3 or 4 coaches in the country as an example is not a valid example.  I mean, you can't say that Bill Self could do it, then say if someone can't, they just aren't a good coach.  That is ridiculous.

I'm just trying to make the point that good coaches almost always are able to get to teams that have below average talent to play at an average to above average level. I may have used some hyperbole in the process. There are exceptions to that, but even then, it doesn't take them long to get enough talent in the program to get them to that level. Scott Drew took over the biggest mess imaginable and had them in the tournament within five years, and that's a program with almost no history of success. Good coaches eventually overcome bad situations almost 100% of the time.

Good coaches don't often have below average talent and when they do they struggle.  Drew is a great example.  They were absolute crap for four years before he got good players. 


2003–04   Baylor   8–21    3–13    11th   
2004–05   Baylor   9–19    1–15    12th   
2005–06   Baylor   4–13    4–12    12th   
2006–07   Baylor   15–16  4–12    11th   

Name an actual real-world example of a good coach having below average talent that you can think of that didn't result in a poor season (missed the postseason altogether seems to be your barometer).

Bob Huggins at K-State.

An NBA player (former four-star recruit) surrounded by several junior/senior three-star players isn't below average.  That's really rough ridin' stupid that you wrote that.

Basically the same exact roster that missed the postseason the year before, and the same core group of players that missed the postseason the two years before that. Teams with average talent find a way to make the NIT more than once every four years.

[kso_FAN]

I don't know why people still consistently underrate how good Cartier was.  He's only bumped around the NBA for the last eight years...

Yeah, and he's the only K-State player currently in the NBA.

[sys]

and i think underwood could recruit to kstate.  i'd be excited to watch him get a chance.

[kso_FAN]

Basically the same exact roster that missed the postseason the year before, and the same core group of players that missed the postseason the two years before that. Teams with average talent find a way to make the NIT more than once every four years.

Wooly was dreadful as a coach though, so its hard to make the claim. JMHO.

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

If the CBE was a thing when Wooly was coach, he'd have made the post season a bunch.

[michigancat]

Basically the same exact roster that missed the postseason the year before, and the same core group of players that missed the postseason the two years before that. Teams with average talent find a way to make the NIT more than once every four years.

Wooly was dreadful as a coach though, so its hard to make the claim. JMHO.

You could make a pretty good argument that Huggs letting the wings have the green light from 3 was the difference between NIT and no postseason.

Our 3PA/FGA went from 21.0(!) in 06 to 33.4 in 07.

[sys]

Our 3PA/FGA went from 21.0(!) in 06 to 33.4 in 07.

jfc, wooly.

[kso_FAN]

Our 3PA/FGA went from 21.0(!) in 06 to 33.4 in 07.

jfc, wooly.

Wooly's fool's gold mantra and his fervent belief in it contributed to him failing as a coach. He had two of the top five 3 point shooters ever at K-State in Cartier and Dejesus and never had his 3PA% more than 28% at K-State. Dumb.

[michigancat]

It was actually 21.9, I think I need glasses. It's still insane.

[Mr Bread]

Using one of the top 3 or 4 coaches in the country as an example is not a valid example.  I mean, you can't say that Bill Self could do it, then say if someone can't, they just aren't a good coach.  That is ridiculous.

I'm just trying to make the point that good coaches almost always are able to get to teams that have below average talent to play at an average to above average level. I may have used some hyperbole in the process. There are exceptions to that, but even then, it doesn't take them long to get enough talent in the program to get them to that level. Scott Drew took over the biggest mess imaginable and had them in the tournament within five years, and that's a program with almost no history of success. Good coaches eventually overcome bad situations almost 100% of the time.

Good coaches don't often have below average talent and when they do they struggle.  Drew is a great example.  They were absolute crap for four years before he got good players. 


2003–04   Baylor   8–21    3–13    11th   
2004–05   Baylor   9–19    1–15    12th   
2005–06   Baylor   4–13    4–12    12th   
2006–07   Baylor   15–16  4–12    11th   

Name an actual real-world example of a good coach having below average talent that you can think of that didn't result in a poor season (missed the postseason altogether seems to be your barometer).

Bob Huggins at K-State.

An NBA player (former four-star recruit) surrounded by several junior/senior three-star players isn't below average.  That's really rough ridin' stupid that you wrote that.

Basically the same exact roster that missed the postseason the year before, and the same core group of players that missed the postseason the two years before that. Teams with average talent find a way to make the NIT more than once every four years.

oscar went 6-12 in conference/missed the postseason altogether with a team that, sans a lottery pick at center, Groce took to the NCAA tournament the next year.  They had talent both years, more the former than the latter actually.  The fact oscar sucked with them doesn't change that.  Same goes for Wooldridge and Huggins.  eff, the team Roy won it all with his second season at UNC got Doherty fired.  That team was filthy with talent. 

Talent is necessary for success, but it doesn't guarantee it.  Huggins had talent and Wooldridge squandered it. 

[Mr Bread]

ksugrapefruit really has crap for his brains on this one. 

[ksupamplemousse]

I probably framed my argument incorrectly to begin with. I took issue with Cire saying that Brad would be screwed over by the roster that oscar left him. I think that's ridiculous. Good coaches can obviously get more out of any roster, regardless of the talent level, than bad coaches. AND it doesn't take long in basketball to infuse enough talent to make it to the tourney, even if you take over an unbelievably shitty situation. It's not like if we hired Brad that we would fire him after one year because oscar left him a shitty roster. If Brad can recruit, then he will more than enough time to get K-State back into the tourney on a regular basis.

[AndrewVonLintel]

Stephen F. Austin   Last 10 years    Brad Underwood in Bold

2015   19-3      right now  9-0 in conference.  It looks like he might get another 30 wins.

2014   32-3      NCAA Tournament win over VCU

2013   27-5      NIT   loss to Stanford
2012   20-12
2011   18-11
2010   23-9
2009   24-8      NCAA  loss to Syracuse
2008  26-6       NIT      loss  to UMASS
2007  15-14
2006  17-12     

Stephen F is not a horrible program for that level but he did push them over 30 wins and got an NCAA tournament win already.

[AndrewVonLintel]

Stephen F. Austin

2013   Lineup

Smith      33.8 minutes   15.7   ppg
Bostic     31.6                10.8
Haymon  30.5                10.6
Bateman  27.7                7.3
Parker      23.5                7.2
Walkup    18.5                 4.4

3 of the top 4 scorers  are not in Brad's lineup in 2014   


2014

Haymon   30.3                 14.5            +3.9 ppg
Parker      28.9                 14.2            +7       
Walkup     28.4                 13.1           +8.7
Walker      21.7                 11.7           +9.1 
Gajic        23.1                   9.6            +7.2
Pinkney    24.1                   3.0            +1.7

None of these players were Brad's recruits but he did seem to improve all of them (on paper),  the teams overall results were better and ended with the NCAA tournament loss in the round of 32.   Brad can obviously win with another coaches players.


2015

Walkup       26.4                14.1
Parker        27.9                 14.1
Geffrard      15.6                  8.2
Johnson     13.4                  7.9
Charles       20.3                 7.3
Floyd          15.2                 6.5
Cameron     16.5                 4.5
Clayton       15.6                 4.0
Pinkney       26.0                3.5

Currently he is starting to spread the minutes around and is still winning his conference. I think it is a good sign because you are being productive but are not relying too heavily on certain individuals.  It will be interesting to see how the rest of the year goes for the Lumberjacks. I put the recruits from this years class in bold.  4 of his top 6 scorers are new this year.

[Pete]

I am skeptical of Brad.  I am also skeptical of  anyone who has not proven that they can recruit at a high level as a head coach.

[Mixed-Nutz]

I am skeptical of Brad.  I am also skeptical of  anyone who has not proven that they can recruit at a high level as a head coach.

Agree, But Underwoods staff landed Nathan Bain this year. A Mokan product and it is an absolute joke. He shouldn't being going to the southland conference. He is too of a good player.

[AndrewVonLintel]

I don't really know but was Brad not involved at all in the recruiting at K-State?

Rivals has Stephen F. Austin with one 3 star and 4 unranked guys in 2014's class.

Rivals  has two 3 star recruits and one unranked in the 2015 class.

Going back 5 years.. I only found occasional 2 star recruits for Stephen F. Austin before Brad showed up.

If you look at Rivals, it would appear that he has stepped up the recruiting. We all have to realize that the Southland is not a destination conference and if he can get 3 stars there he should be able to at least do that here.