Carr Bros.

[michigancat]

If you want to have a discussion on sentencing restructuring or something like that, I would be all for it.  However, if you kill someone(not standing your ground, of course), then you should be treated like an animal.  Not as punishment, but as a deterrent for others. 

Would you be in favor of torturing murderers? Wouldn't that be an even better deterrent?

[jtksu]

I'm very against the death penalty but the Carr bros make it very difficult to defend my position.

I'm still solidly against it. What is accomplished by murdering these guys?

Housing two high profile inmates like the Carrs runs something like 50k/yr/Carr.  There's that.

Why does it cost more to house them than anyone else?

Because they have to be segregated from the rest of the inmates.   Have to be X number of guards to guide them when they're out of their cell.   One person per cell.  Also, the price of paying for their court appointed attorneys to file the appeals.   Etc...

Why do they need extra guards and segregation?

So they don't harm any guards or inmates and so the other inmates don't harm them.   Not sure why you're acting like you don't already understand this.

[RickRampus]

I really wouldnt give a eff if it was a walled off domed city that violent, heinous people were kept in to establish their own brand of justice, laws, customs, etc. Air drop food in once a week and call it a day.

would probably be the most watched reality show of all time

[michigancat]

So they don't harm any guards or inmates and so the other inmates don't harm them.   Not sure why you're acting like you don't already understand this.

We're going to kill them but worry about them being harmed?

[SdK]

I really wouldnt give a eff if it was a walled off domed city that violent, heinous people were kept in to establish their own brand of justice, laws, customs, etc. Air drop food in once a week and call it a day.

would probably be the most watched reality show of all time

Would make a crap ton of money on the web.

[Rage Against the McKee]

I really wouldnt give a eff if it was a walled off domed city that violent, heinous people were kept in to establish their own brand of justice, laws, customs, etc. Air drop food in once a week and call it a day.

would probably be the most watched reality show of all time

It's been done. It's called Australia. It worked out very well for everyone involved. That is a much better solution than the death penalty, imo.

I just don't know where you find the land necessary for that in 2014, though.

[CNS]

If you want to have a discussion on sentencing restructuring or something like that, I would be all for it.  However, if you kill someone(not standing your ground, of course), then you should be treated like an animal.  Not as punishment, but as a deterrent for others. 

Would you be in favor of torturing murderers? Wouldn't that be an even better deterrent?

It would be, but I wouldn't be.

[jtksu]

So they don't harm any guards or inmates and so the other inmates don't harm them.   Not sure why you're acting like you don't already understand this.

We're going to kill them but worry about them being harmed?

Guess we could just let the other guys murder them but I feel like they probably wouldn't be very humane about it.    And, to your point, why are we even feeding them?   We should just lock them in a room and let nature take its course.   Then, just remove the body, hose down the cell, and throw another dude in.    eff, why even hose the room down?

[michigancat]

If you want to have a discussion on sentencing restructuring or something like that, I would be all for it.  However, if you kill someone(not standing your ground, of course), then you should be treated like an animal.  Not as punishment, but as a deterrent for others. 

Would you be in favor of torturing murderers? Wouldn't that be an even better deterrent?

It would be, but I wouldn't be.

why not?

[michigancat]

So they don't harm any guards or inmates and so the other inmates don't harm them.   Not sure why you're acting like you don't already understand this.

We're going to kill them but worry about them being harmed?

Guess we could just let the other guys murder them but I feel like they probably wouldn't be very humane about it.    And, to your point, why are we even feeding them?   We should just lock them in a room and let nature take its course.   Then, just remove the body, hose down the cell, and throw another dude in.    eff, why even hose the room down?

OK, you've convinced me that we should do the humane thing and not murder them.

[CNS]

I don't think prison should be comfy.  I am not for rape and what not, but definitely think that there should be no library other than law materials, tv, classes, color finishes, hot water, etc in max prisons for violent offenders.  Keep them safe, warm, fed, and that is it.

If you want to have a discussion on sentencing restructuring or something like that, I would be all for it.  However, if you kill someone(not standing your ground, of course), then you should be treated like an animal.  Not as punishment, but as a deterrent for others. 

Take all the money you want to spend on that crap and put it into prevention, mental health programs, education, etc.  Basically anything that statistically shows that ppl with such things have a lower incarceration rate.

Some violent offenders are going to get out of prison eventually. They share facilities with murderers who won't. What do you expect them to do when they get out if you put them into a facility where you treat them like an animal for 10 years?

If people want people that commit these heinous acts to be provided with room, board, and an education, they can donate money to pay for that.

Hungry? Homeless? Ill? Go on a rape and murder spree and get room, board, excercise, healthcare, friends, and an education for life!

If I were hungry, homeless, and ill, I would probably just go to a soup kitchen so I could have interaction with people who aren't violent criminals and not be confined to a cell with bars for the rest of my life, but different strokes for different folks, I guess.

We probably have to define "violent offender" at some point soon in this discussion, but I don't believe rehabilitation to be reasonable for a certain level of violent offender.  Rehab is much harder to accomplish than prevention, imo.  That is why I mentioned taking a bunch of the comfort money and putting toward such things like education and stuff that statistically is shown to make it less likely that a participant would go to prison.

Again, my thoughts apply to max security type facilities.  I still think that jail and what not should have some of the comforts and rehab programs.

[CNS]

If you want to have a discussion on sentencing restructuring or something like that, I would be all for it.  However, if you kill someone(not standing your ground, of course), then you should be treated like an animal.  Not as punishment, but as a deterrent for others. 

Would you be in favor of torturing murderers? Wouldn't that be an even better deterrent?

It would be, but I wouldn't be.

why not?

Because that is quite a jump from keeping someone safe, secure, warm, and fed in a grey colored cell while bored. 

If we are going to discuss mental anguish vs physical anguish, we might as well close all prisons.

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

I think they should let them exercise daily, have access to any reading material they request, be fed well, have proper medical care, and have a clean bed to sleep on.

What right do they have to a fairly good life (which is what you described)? Didn't they forfeit that when they tortured and murdered people? The only arguments against capital punishment that I can wrap my head around are those that are based on:

1. The potential of convicting an movement person (n/a here)
2. The idea that life in prison is worse than death. (Not in your idyllic scenario)
3. The theory that capital punishment cases end up costing taxpayers more than life sentences

I don't believe that what I described is a fairly good life at all. It's a miserable life where people still treat you like you are a human being. These guys committed terrible crimes, but they are still human.

Again, just a quick point of correction, I really don't think these monsters qualify as "human."

Well, clearly you are letting your emotions get the better of you.

No, I wouldn't say I feel very "emotional" about it. It's more a matter of having a clearly defined sense of right, wrong, and morality. I call a monster a monster. If we could somehow kill the monster in the exact way that the monster killed his victims, that would be best, but because that's not feasible, I'm fine with just snuffing them out.

[Rage Against the McKee]

No, I wouldn't say I feel very "emotional" about it. It's more a matter of having a clearly defined sense of right, wrong, and morality.

Well, I disagree with you here.

[8manpick]

I really wouldnt give a eff if it was a walled off domed city that violent, heinous people were kept in to establish their own brand of justice, laws, customs, etc. Air drop food in once a week and call it a day.

would probably be the most watched reality show of all time

It's been done. It's called Australia. It worked out very well for everyone involved. That is a much better solution than the death penalty, imo.

I just don't know where you find the land necessary for that in 2014, though.

Tell the Abbos that it worked well for everyone

[Rage Against the McKee]

I really wouldnt give a eff if it was a walled off domed city that violent, heinous people were kept in to establish their own brand of justice, laws, customs, etc. Air drop food in once a week and call it a day.

would probably be the most watched reality show of all time

It's been done. It's called Australia. It worked out very well for everyone involved. That is a much better solution than the death penalty, imo.

I just don't know where you find the land necessary for that in 2014, though.

Tell the Abbos that it worked well for everyone

Well, yeah, it didn't really work out well for them.

[michigancat]

I don't think prison should be comfy.  I am not for rape and what not, but definitely think that there should be no library other than law materials, tv, classes, color finishes, hot water, etc in max prisons for violent offenders.  Keep them safe, warm, fed, and that is it.

If you want to have a discussion on sentencing restructuring or something like that, I would be all for it.  However, if you kill someone(not standing your ground, of course), then you should be treated like an animal.  Not as punishment, but as a deterrent for others. 

Take all the money you want to spend on that crap and put it into prevention, mental health programs, education, etc.  Basically anything that statistically shows that ppl with such things have a lower incarceration rate.

Some violent offenders are going to get out of prison eventually. They share facilities with murderers who won't. What do you expect them to do when they get out if you put them into a facility where you treat them like an animal for 10 years?

If people want people that commit these heinous acts to be provided with room, board, and an education, they can donate money to pay for that.

Hungry? Homeless? Ill? Go on a rape and murder spree and get room, board, excercise, healthcare, friends, and an education for life!

If I were hungry, homeless, and ill, I would probably just go to a soup kitchen so I could have interaction with people who aren't violent criminals and not be confined to a cell with bars for the rest of my life, but different strokes for different folks, I guess.

We probably have to define "violent offender" at some point soon in this discussion, but I don't believe rehabilitation to be reasonable for a certain level of violent offender.  Rehab is much harder to accomplish than prevention, imo.  That is why I mentioned taking a bunch of the comfort money and putting toward such things like education and stuff that statistically is shown to make it less likely that a participant would go to prison.

Again, my thoughts apply to max security type facilities.  I still think that jail and what not should have some of the comforts and rehab programs.

How much education are you going to buy with the money that would have been spent on hot water and books for prisoners?

(I agree we should spend more money on education, but I don't think it needs to be a choice between education for kids and books for prisoners).

If we are going to discuss mental anguish vs physical anguish, we might as well close all prisons.

Yeah, going to prison would really suck, even if you could take a hot shower.

[CNS]

I have no idea how much money is spent on books and hot water, but I would assume once you also roll into it the entire education program including facilities, utilities, personnel, etc, as well as technology(computers, tvs, cable, internet, etc), mental health counselors, and what ever other programs that are in place to entertain, placate, or rehab prisoners, I would think it would be a pretty big number.

Also, I know you are minimizing for the sake of your own point, but I would assume that the cost to heat water for the daily shower of a couple thousand ppl would add up really quick.

[Rage Against the McKee]

I have no idea how much money is spent on books and hot water, but I would assume once you also roll into it the entire education program including facilities, utilities, personnel, etc, as well as technology(computers, tvs, cable, internet, etc), mental health counselors, and what ever other programs that are in place to entertain, placate, or rehab prisoners, I would think it would be a pretty big number.

Also, I know you are minimizing for the sake of your own point, but I would assume that the cost to heat water for the daily shower of a couple thousand ppl would add up really quick.

Well, even I don't support cable and internet in prisons. I do think they should have access to public television and radio, though. Hot water, too.

[CNS]

Why public tv and radio? 

Is NPR going to make a difference in their life?  Is Downton Abbey going to increase the value they place on the lives of others in their community? 

[Rage Against the McKee]

Why public tv and radio? 

Is NPR going to make a difference in their life?  Is Downton Abbey going to increase the value they place on the lives of others in their community?

It might help when they get out of prison if they know things like who the President of the United States is, who we are at war with, changes that have been made to the law over the past 20 years, etc.

[CNS]

Why public tv and radio? 

Is NPR going to make a difference in their life?  Is Downton Abbey going to increase the value they place on the lives of others in their community?

It might help when they get out of prison if they know things like who the President of the United States is, who we are at war with, changes that have been made to the law over the past 20 years, etc.

They are done with politics as they can't vote, can't serve in the military unless radical changes occur, and they can read up on law changes at a public library when they get out because getting off a bus and walking to a library is never going to be against the law. 

[Rage Against the McKee]

Why public tv and radio? 

Is NPR going to make a difference in their life?  Is Downton Abbey going to increase the value they place on the lives of others in their community?

It might help when they get out of prison if they know things like who the President of the United States is, who we are at war with, changes that have been made to the law over the past 20 years, etc.

They are done with politics as they can't vote, can't serve in the military unless radical changes occur, and they can read up on law changes at a public library when they get out because getting off a bus and walking to a library is never going to be against the law.

Or they could just watch free television programming when they are in prison so they will have some idea of what the outside world looks like and maybe, just maybe, even find a job instead of ending up back in prison.

[Mr Bread]

I don't believe RAtM. 

[CNS]

I am fine with them gaining a useful skill during their work in what ever work program they are assigned while in prison. 

Again, I am speaking specifically about violent criminals in max security. 

I just don't believe in rehabilitation for the ppl that commit such crimes.  Certainly not by the consumption of radio, tv, internet, magazines, etc.