Author Topic: Israel - Hamas peace process  (Read 113981 times)

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Offline michigancat

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1425 on: February 05, 2025, 09:03:06 AM »
The past 24 hours #blueanongE talked more about Gaza - then they did the entire time that the United States was arming Israel so Israel could bomb the crap out of Gaza.

You guys are pinnacle hyper partisans.

It’s just fascinating


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I'm not sure if this is the point you're making but it's 100% right that people suddenly take notice to what is going on in Palestine because Trump said something dumb and outlandish, when the actual bombing the US enabled did far more harm.
Read the entire article, get past the headline and the expected criticism from a usual mockingbird mouthpiece . . . Don’t be a typical #blueanongE dimwit, for once

https://www.npr.org/2025/02/05/nx-s1-5287576/trump-gaza-takeover


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I'm not sure what you wanted me to take away from that but you know I'm agreeing with you right? I read the article and I thought this gets to the crux of the destruction we have enabled:

Quote
In Gaza City, hundreds of thousands of people displaced during the war have returned to find the city largely destroyed – homes and businesses reduced to rubble, running water and electricity almost non-existent.

Some have returned to Gaza's south, where humanitarian aid and services are more plentiful. But many are remaining amongst the debris in tents or in what's left of homes.

Bassam Muhammad Abdulraouf, 29, says he has no plans to leave Gaza.

"Even if there was a place that was a million times better than Gaza, and even if I could be sure that life there would be luxurious, I would still be ready to live among the rubble and in tents here," he says. "If they come with the army, with military force, I will still never leave."

Nehad Ghonaim, a surgeon at Kamal Adwan hospital, says he refused to leave the enclave's north during Israel's heavy bombardment, and would also refuse Trump's proposal.

"This is my homeland and I have no intention to leave even if Trump provides me with the best of everything somewhere else," Ghonaim says, noting that he would not abandon the graves of his family killed during the war. He said his children were also killed and remain buried under rubble.

Yahia Barakat, 30, says he would leave if given the chance.

"My home is gone, my life is gone, my future is gone," he says. "If I travel and find a country that embraces me, provides me with safety and a good life, I will leave my country, leave my homeland, leave my home, because it will provide me with security and a good life."


Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1426 on: February 05, 2025, 09:15:43 AM »
But you skipped over the part about negotiating tactics (that #blueanongE weirdos continually make fun of . . . I suppose just preferring that the bombs keep right on dropping) . . . did you note that Ben N has to deal with hardcore ultranationalists etc. etc.?

There has to be a center pivot point of negotiation in all things with this much on the line. Maybe that center point is a bit absurd, but at this point, big, outside of the box thinking needs to be on the table. To keep doing the same thing is insanity




Offline michigancat

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1427 on: February 05, 2025, 09:19:12 AM »
But you skipped over the part about negotiating tactics (that #blueanongE weirdos continually make fun of . . . I suppose just preferring that the bombs keep right on dropping) . . . did you note that Ben N has to deal with hardcore ultranationalists etc. etc.?

There has to be a center pivot point of negotiation in all things with this much on the line. Maybe that center point is a bit absurd, but at this point, big, outside of the box thinking needs to be on the table. To keep doing the same thing is insanity





My insane idea is we stop funding Israel's military and pressure Israel to treat Palestinians like humans with human rights

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1428 on: February 05, 2025, 09:39:53 AM »
That's not going to happen. It's really not going to happen as long as the United States keeps doing things like attempting to install the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt (Barry and Kerry) and actually installing a US designated terrorist as dear leader right next door in Syria . . . at least until further notice.  It's not going to happen as long as Hezbollah has safe haven in Lebanon.




Offline Sandstone Outcropping

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1429 on: February 05, 2025, 09:42:20 AM »

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1430 on: February 05, 2025, 10:01:02 AM »
I want to see #blueanongE explain why Egypt has built an absolutely incredible wall and a defense in depth posture on the other side of that wall - to keep the Palestinians out of Egypt.


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I would like to see you explain it!
They clearly hate the Palestinians.

Are there Muslim Brotherhood elements in the Palestinian ranks? Not rhetorical. (Remember when Barry and John tried to install the MB in Egypt? And were completely mushed. I digress).

I’ll have to go and find it. But a retired general was on a most favored #blueanon media outlet talking about how he proposed a similar plan a few years back. 

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Wait, borders for me but not for thee?

First, the Palestinians overwhelmingly do not want to leave.
Second, why would a poor country like Egypt or Lebannon want more refugees?
Third, why would Egypt want Israel starting a new war in their country when Israel sees Hamas in the Sinai?

What are you even talking about?

Offline star seed 7

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1431 on: February 05, 2025, 10:02:12 AM »
Legendary flailing from dax here.
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1432 on: February 05, 2025, 10:06:15 AM »
There has to be a center pivot point of negotiation in all things with this much on the line. Maybe that center point is a bit absurd, but at this point, big, outside of the box thinking needs to be on the table. To keep doing the same thing is insanity

My insane idea is we stop funding Israel's military and pressure Israel to treat Palestinians like humans with human rights

That's not going to happen.

absolutely incred

Offline LickNeckey

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1433 on: February 05, 2025, 10:13:41 AM »
ethnically cleansing the Gaza strip in clear violation of all international law = big outside of the box thinking

giving Israel less money to genocide Palestinians = not plausible

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1434 on: February 05, 2025, 10:25:26 AM »
To be fair to dax, he's always claimed he's for a two state solution. Just nobody realized he was talking about Isreal and the US.
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline LickNeckey

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1435 on: February 05, 2025, 10:52:16 AM »
What if we take over Israel?

We are already paying for their security.

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1436 on: February 05, 2025, 10:52:26 AM »
The US occupying Gaza and taking on that cost sounds like one of the worst ideas in the history of geopolitics. Every “victory” the DOGE claims will be Pennie’s compared to the cost of the “you break it, you buy it” occupation of Gaza. What a rough ridin' disaster this could be.

Grok AI said the following:

Quote

The idea of the U.S. occupying Gaza has sparked significant debate, especially regarding funding. Based on the information available:

- **U.S. Government Statements**: Recent posts on X suggest that U.S. President Donald Trump has proposed that the U.S. would take over and redevelop Gaza, but there are conflicting statements about who would bear the financial burden. One post claims Trump said the U.S. would not pay for anything related to Gaza, suggesting that other "rich countries" should handle the costs.

- **Historical Context and Aid**: Historically, the U.S. has been one of the largest donors to aid efforts in Gaza, with over $674 million announced in humanitarian aid for Palestinians since the conflict began, according to the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID). However, this aid is separate from the costs associated with occupation and reconstruction.

- **Estimates of Reconstruction Costs**: Various sources, including a UNCTAD official, estimate the cost of rebuilding Gaza could be around $20 billion, given the current damage. This figure would likely increase if occupation costs were factored in.

- **Potential Funding Sources**:
  - **International Aid**: There's mention in web articles of countries like Saudi Arabia, the UAE, and European nations potentially contributing to reconstruction, although political implications make this complex.
  - **U.S. Taxpayers**: The U.S. has historically funded military and humanitarian aid to Israel, and if there were an occupation, U.S. taxpayers might be expected to contribute significantly, though this would be politically controversial given current sentiments on X about U.S. involvement.

- **Business and Investment**: There's also speculation on X that multinational corporations might benefit from any reconstruction, possibly influencing where funding comes from or how it's directed.

Given these points, no definitive answer can be provided on who will pay for a U.S. occupation of Gaza since the proposal itself seems to be in a speculative stage. The U.S. might leverage international support or use its own resources, but both scenarios would be fraught with political, economic, and humanitarian considerations. The situation remains fluid, with funding likely to be a contentious issue based on public and international reactions.

This plan seems to be sharply at odds with the adminstration's previously stated goal to "get the US out of forever wars"

Completely agree

Offline Pete

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1437 on: February 05, 2025, 11:01:02 AM »
The US occupying Gaza and taking on that cost sounds like one of the worst ideas in the history of geopolitics. Every “victory” the DOGE claims will be Pennie’s compared to the cost of the “you break it, you buy it” occupation of Gaza. What a rough ridin' disaster this could be.

Grok AI said the following:

Quote

The idea of the U.S. occupying Gaza has sparked significant debate, especially regarding funding. Based on the information available:

- **U.S. Government Statements**: Recent posts on X suggest that U.S. President Donald Trump has proposed that the U.S. would take over and redevelop Gaza, but there are conflicting statements about who would bear the financial burden. One post claims Trump said the U.S. would not pay for anything related to Gaza, suggesting that other "rich countries" should handle the costs.

- **Historical Context and Aid**: Historically, the U.S. has been one of the largest donors to aid efforts in Gaza, with over $674 million announced in humanitarian aid for Palestinians since the conflict began, according to the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID). However, this aid is separate from the costs associated with occupation and reconstruction.

- **Estimates of Reconstruction Costs**: Various sources, including a UNCTAD official, estimate the cost of rebuilding Gaza could be around $20 billion, given the current damage. This figure would likely increase if occupation costs were factored in.

- **Potential Funding Sources**:
  - **International Aid**: There's mention in web articles of countries like Saudi Arabia, the UAE, and European nations potentially contributing to reconstruction, although political implications make this complex.
  - **U.S. Taxpayers**: The U.S. has historically funded military and humanitarian aid to Israel, and if there were an occupation, U.S. taxpayers might be expected to contribute significantly, though this would be politically controversial given current sentiments on X about U.S. involvement.

- **Business and Investment**: There's also speculation on X that multinational corporations might benefit from any reconstruction, possibly influencing where funding comes from or how it's directed.

Given these points, no definitive answer can be provided on who will pay for a U.S. occupation of Gaza since the proposal itself seems to be in a speculative stage. The U.S. might leverage international support or use its own resources, but both scenarios would be fraught with political, economic, and humanitarian considerations. The situation remains fluid, with funding likely to be a contentious issue based on public and international reactions.


It's almost like "the ends justify the means" can go off the rails when the "means" are guided by morons with questionable motives

Sometimes the way you phrase things make it seem like you are angry and combative.

I got a lot of spiritual and emotional benefit from attempting to take a break from 24/7/365 snark and sarcasm. It’s not good for me.  So, when others do that to me, I have a difficult time understanding whether they mean to attack me. If it’s all the same to you and you don’t care either way, I’d appreciate it if you reworded stuff to take my delicate sensitivity into account.  :blush:

Also, I agree that this Gaza stuff is horrible. Let a player in the region or Switzerland do this crap if there is merit to it. Not the USA. That’s my view.

Yeah that is 100% fair. Didn't need to be snarky.

But in all seriousness, I think you should consider the morals and beliefs of your leaders as part of your evaluation of them and not just if they will help your most important causes. Because in general, lying/immoral people will turn on a dime if it benefits them. People with good morals will too! But I'd rather start with the good morals.

Again, I'd encourage you to think deeply about whether someone who doesn't care about trans rights or Palestinian rights and winks at Nazis really cares about keeping people in this country safe or financially secure.

We seem to be missing each other like ships in the night. A lot of this might just be semantics. I have no power over who gets to serve in the roles that they are in in the government. I voted for Kamala and I voted for nothing but Democratic political candidates Since 1992. Via my voting, I have been an unwavering supporter of the Democratic Party since 1992.  There have been no elections where I have failed to support the Democratic Party.

At this present moment in this time between elections I find myself questioning the Democratic Party, and I will say that who I will vote for next time around is totally up in the air based upon who those candidates end up being and what their stated goals are and whether I believe them.


In the meantime, regarding things that I have absolutely no control over, I have made the decision to share with this board and with you that I am choosing to try and see silver linings, and I am choosing to evaluate each action on its own merits and not merely About whether I like or dislike the actor .

I acknowledge that there are many on this board, but perhaps not you, who are completely unwilling to acknowledge that the other side ever has a good idea or have any interest in supporting any initiative unless it comes from their own side.

I have also expressed my desire to be willing to negotiate on absolutely everything. That’s just a feature of my own personal value system. I acknowledge that there are others on this board who have specific topics on which they are completely unwilling to negotiate. I find it offensive when folks of that belief system Tell me that I am immoral or imply that I am immoral because I do not share their absolutism.

I know that you, Michigancat, are not asking me to again enumerate, which political figures I like and dislike, but I would like to reiterate that I do not like Donald Trump and I do not like most of what I am seeing from Elon Musk that is outside of the area of his specific businesses and tech technologies… I do not like Elon Musk political efforts.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1438 on: February 05, 2025, 11:39:04 AM »
There has to be a center pivot point of negotiation in all things with this much on the line. Maybe that center point is a bit absurd, but at this point, big, outside of the box thinking needs to be on the table. To keep doing the same thing is insanity

My insane idea is we stop funding Israel's military and pressure Israel to treat Palestinians like humans with human rights

That's not going to happen.

absolutely incred

You're smoking Meth-Fent if you think that's going to happen.

It's just not, so why even start there?


Offline Pete

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1439 on: February 05, 2025, 11:42:41 AM »
Quote

Several significant obstacles would likely impede the United States from adopting a policy where military funding for Israel is contingent upon certain behavioral conditions toward Palestinians:

1. **Historical and Strategic Alliance:**
   - The U.S.-Israel relationship is deeply rooted in historical, cultural, and strategic interests. Israel is often seen as a key ally in the Middle East, providing a strategic military and intelligence partner. This alliance is supported by significant lobbying efforts in the U.S., particularly from organizations like AIPAC (American Israel Public Affairs Committee), which advocate for continued and unconditional support for Israel.

2. **Domestic Political Dynamics:**
   - Israel has strong bipartisan support in Congress. Any policy conditioning aid could face opposition from both sides of the political spectrum, with many politicians, regardless of party, viewing support for Israel as a non-negotiable stance. This could lead to significant political repercussions for any administration attempting such a policy shift.

3. **Lobbying and Public Opinion:**
   - The influence of pro-Israel lobbying groups in U.S. politics can shape public and political discourse. Public opinion in the U.S. has historically been supportive of Israel, although this has varied. Conditioning aid might not align with the views of a significant portion of the electorate, potentially affecting electoral outcomes.

4. **International Relations and Regional Stability:**
   - The U.S. sees Israel as a stabilizing force in the Middle East, particularly in countering threats from Iran and other adversarial states or non-state actors. Withdrawing or conditioning military support could be perceived as weakening a strategic partner, potentially destabilizing the region further.

5. **Legal and Treaty Obligations:**
   - The U.S. has treaty commitments and legislative frameworks that govern aid to Israel. Changing these would require navigating complex legal pathways, including possibly amending existing laws or treaties, which could meet resistance in Congress.

6. **Potential for Escalation:**
   - Such a policy might be seen by Israel as an infringement on its sovereignty, potentially leading to diplomatic tensions or even retaliatory measures, such as increased settlement activity or other actions against Palestinian interests, which could backfire on U.S. policy goals.

7. **Humanitarian and Peace Process Concerns:**
   - While the intent might be to push for peace or better treatment of Palestinians, conditioning aid could backfire if Israel perceives this as coercive. It might harden positions rather than encourage compromise, potentially derailing peace negotiations or humanitarian efforts.

8. **Counterproductive Impact on U.S. Foreign Policy:**
   - If the U.S. were to implement such conditions and Israel did not comply, the U.S. would then face the dilemma of either enforcing the policy (cutting aid, thus losing leverage and influence) or backing down, which would undermine U.S. credibility in international diplomacy.

9. **Global Perception:**
   - Internationally, this move might be seen as either an overstep by the U.S. or as a sign of weakening commitment to allies, affecting America's global standing and its role as a mediator in Middle Eastern conflicts.

Implementing such a policy would require not only a shift in domestic policy but also careful consideration of its impact on international relations, regional stability, and the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict dynamics. Each of these obstacles presents significant challenges that would need to be navigated strategically and politically.




Offline star seed 7

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1440 on: February 05, 2025, 11:49:15 AM »
There has to be a center pivot point of negotiation in all things with this much on the line. Maybe that center point is a bit absurd, but at this point, big, outside of the box thinking needs to be on the table. To keep doing the same thing is insanity

My insane idea is we stop funding Israel's military and pressure Israel to treat Palestinians like humans with human rights

That's not going to happen.

absolutely incred

You're smoking Meth-Fent if you think that's going to happen.

It's just not, so why even start there?

Amazing
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1441 on: February 05, 2025, 11:49:26 AM »
I want to see #blueanongE explain why Egypt has built an absolutely incredible wall and a defense in depth posture on the other side of that wall - to keep the Palestinians out of Egypt.


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I would like to see you explain it!
They clearly hate the Palestinians.

Are there Muslim Brotherhood elements in the Palestinian ranks? Not rhetorical. (Remember when Barry and John tried to install the MB in Egypt? And were completely mushed. I digress).

I’ll have to go and find it. But a retired general was on a most favored #blueanon media outlet talking about how he proposed a similar plan a few years back. 

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Wait, borders for me but not for thee?

First, the Palestinians overwhelmingly do not want to leave.
Second, why would a poor country like Egypt or Lebannon want more refugees?
Third, why would Egypt want Israel starting a new war in their country when Israel sees Hamas in the Sinai?

What are you even talking about?



Why do those countries have a refugee problem . . . I'll answer it for you, almost exclusively because of US and US proxies and our policies and actions over the last 20 years.

This is not a new question KK . . . you know that, or you just haven't been paying attention.






Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1442 on: February 05, 2025, 11:50:23 AM »
ethnically cleansing the Gaza strip in clear violation of all international law = big outside of the box thinking

giving Israel less money to genocide Palestinians = not plausible

You apologized for and fully supported an administration that did nothing but fuel a genocide in Gaza. Just sit this out.


Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1443 on: February 05, 2025, 11:51:55 AM »
There has to be a center pivot point of negotiation in all things with this much on the line. Maybe that center point is a bit absurd, but at this point, big, outside of the box thinking needs to be on the table. To keep doing the same thing is insanity

My insane idea is we stop funding Israel's military and pressure Israel to treat Palestinians like humans with human rights

That's not going to happen.

absolutely incred

You're smoking Meth-Fent if you think that's going to happen.

It's just not, so why even start there?

Amazing

You add virtually nothing to discussion besides just reminding everyone that you're an extreme weirdo . . . if it were up to #blueanongE - Kamala Harris would still be helping Israel bomb the crap out of Gaza.


Offline michigancat

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1444 on: February 05, 2025, 12:00:52 PM »
Quote

Several significant obstacles would likely impede the United States from adopting a policy where military funding for Israel is contingent upon certain behavioral conditions toward Palestinians:

1. **Historical and Strategic Alliance:**
   - The U.S.-Israel relationship is deeply rooted in historical, cultural, and strategic interests. Israel is often seen as a key ally in the Middle East, providing a strategic military and intelligence partner. This alliance is supported by significant lobbying efforts in the U.S., particularly from organizations like AIPAC (American Israel Public Affairs Committee), which advocate for continued and unconditional support for Israel.

2. **Domestic Political Dynamics:**
   - Israel has strong bipartisan support in Congress. Any policy conditioning aid could face opposition from both sides of the political spectrum, with many politicians, regardless of party, viewing support for Israel as a non-negotiable stance. This could lead to significant political repercussions for any administration attempting such a policy shift.

3. **Lobbying and Public Opinion:**
   - The influence of pro-Israel lobbying groups in U.S. politics can shape public and political discourse. Public opinion in the U.S. has historically been supportive of Israel, although this has varied. Conditioning aid might not align with the views of a significant portion of the electorate, potentially affecting electoral outcomes.

4. **International Relations and Regional Stability:**
   - The U.S. sees Israel as a stabilizing force in the Middle East, particularly in countering threats from Iran and other adversarial states or non-state actors. Withdrawing or conditioning military support could be perceived as weakening a strategic partner, potentially destabilizing the region further.

5. **Legal and Treaty Obligations:**
   - The U.S. has treaty commitments and legislative frameworks that govern aid to Israel. Changing these would require navigating complex legal pathways, including possibly amending existing laws or treaties, which could meet resistance in Congress.

6. **Potential for Escalation:**
   - Such a policy might be seen by Israel as an infringement on its sovereignty, potentially leading to diplomatic tensions or even retaliatory measures, such as increased settlement activity or other actions against Palestinian interests, which could backfire on U.S. policy goals.

7. **Humanitarian and Peace Process Concerns:**
   - While the intent might be to push for peace or better treatment of Palestinians, conditioning aid could backfire if Israel perceives this as coercive. It might harden positions rather than encourage compromise, potentially derailing peace negotiations or humanitarian efforts.

8. **Counterproductive Impact on U.S. Foreign Policy:**
   - If the U.S. were to implement such conditions and Israel did not comply, the U.S. would then face the dilemma of either enforcing the policy (cutting aid, thus losing leverage and influence) or backing down, which would undermine U.S. credibility in international diplomacy.

9. **Global Perception:**
   - Internationally, this move might be seen as either an overstep by the U.S. or as a sign of weakening commitment to allies, affecting America's global standing and its role as a mediator in Middle Eastern conflicts.

Implementing such a policy would require not only a shift in domestic policy but also careful consideration of its impact on international relations, regional stability, and the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict dynamics. Each of these obstacles presents significant challenges that would need to be navigated strategically and politically.




In fairness to dax, I also said the idea of the US pressuring Israel to treat Palestinians like humans was crazy.

Offline LickNeckey

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1445 on: February 05, 2025, 12:08:03 PM »
ethnically cleansing the Gaza strip in clear violation of all international law = big outside of the box thinking

giving Israel less money to genocide Palestinians = not plausible

You apologized for and fully supported an administration that did nothing but fuel a genocide in Gaza. Just sit this out.

*I agreed with you on our treatment of Palestinians and support of Israel

Offline star seed 7

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1446 on: February 05, 2025, 12:08:25 PM »
Do you, like dax, think forced removal and us occupation is less crazy?
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1447 on: February 05, 2025, 12:09:50 PM »
ethnically cleansing the Gaza strip in clear violation of all international law = big outside of the box thinking

giving Israel less money to genocide Palestinians = not plausible

You apologized for and fully supported an administration that did nothing but fuel a genocide in Gaza. Just sit this out.

*I agreed with you on our treatment of Palestinians and support of Israel

Yet you kept alluding to the "plan" . . . the plan that wasn't even remotely coming to fruition, until Don Trump's envoy showed up.

The joke was, everytime Tony Blinks went to Israel, the arms shipments from the US only increased afterwards.


Offline LickNeckey

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1448 on: February 05, 2025, 12:12:25 PM »
*I congratulated Trump's envoy for getting Bidens plan across the finish line

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Israel - Hamas peace process
« Reply #1449 on: February 05, 2025, 12:13:24 PM »
*I congratulated Trump's envoy for getting Bidens plan across the finish line

That's really not the same thing, and you know that.