Israel - Hamas peace process

[Kat Kid]

I know this may come as a bit of a surprise, but it seems like Israel may not have been 100% forthcoming about all aspects of there case for Hamas actually murdering the 3 Israelis.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/hamas-didnt-kidnap-the-israeli-teens-after-all.html

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.602688



http://www.hasbarafellowships.org/

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

I know this may come as a bit of a surprise, but it seems like Israel may not have been 100% forthcoming about all aspects of there case for Hamas actually murdering the 3 Israelis.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/hamas-didnt-kidnap-the-israeli-teens-after-all.html

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.602688



http://www.hasbarafellowships.org/

So instead of Hamas, it was just a random pack of jew-hating palestinians? And this matters why?

[Kat Kid]

Because Netanyahu specifically used their deaths as part of his justification for going in to Gaza.

http://www.businessinsider.com/netanyahu-hamas-will-pay-for-the-killing-of-three-israeli-teens-2014-6

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

Because Netanyahu specifically used their deaths as part of his justification for going in to Gaza.

http://www.businessinsider.com/netanyahu-hamas-will-pay-for-the-killing-of-three-israeli-teens-2014-6

Huh - I thought the main reasons for the invasion were the barrage of rocket attacks and tunnel network. Seems like a pretty trivial thing to be quibbling over.

[Emo EMAW]

Because Netanyahu specifically used their deaths as part of his justification for going in to Gaza.

http://www.businessinsider.com/netanyahu-hamas-will-pay-for-the-killing-of-three-israeli-teens-2014-6

Did you actually believe that?

[Kat Kid]

Because Netanyahu specifically used their deaths as part of his justification for going in to Gaza.

http://www.businessinsider.com/netanyahu-hamas-will-pay-for-the-killing-of-three-israeli-teens-2014-6

Did you actually believe that?

I don't know what you mean.  Here is what I was referring to:

On his Facebook page, Netanyahu was clear in assigning responsibility. He wrote that the three were "murdered in cold blood by human animals," and he promised that "Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay."

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/netanyahu-hamas-will-pay-for-the-killing-of-three-israeli-teens-2014-6#ixzz38npkIrNj

[Emo EMAW]

Because Netanyahu specifically used their deaths as part of his justification for going in to Gaza.

http://www.businessinsider.com/netanyahu-hamas-will-pay-for-the-killing-of-three-israeli-teens-2014-6

Did you actually believe that?

I don't know what you mean.  Here is what I was referring to:

On his Facebook page, Netanyahu was clear in assigning responsibility. He wrote that the three were "murdered in cold blood by human animals," and he promised that "Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay."

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/netanyahu-hamas-will-pay-for-the-killing-of-three-israeli-teens-2014-6#ixzz38npkIrNj

I just meant that I myself didn't think the death of those three teens had any bearing on Israel making the offensive. 

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

I also thought get bombed was sufficient reason to counter attack.

[felix rex]

I also thought get bombed was sufficient reason to counter attack.

Wait, whose perspective are we talking about here?

[sonofdaxjones]

I knew KK was pretty much a progressive radical, but I never took him for somebody who would stealthy support a radical terrorist group that is not supported by the vast majority of the population.  Whose leaders live in luxury while their so called constituency bares the brunt of great hardship and who indiscriminately fire rockets into populated areas, rockets that were possibly purchased from some of the worst people on this earth.

 

[Kat Kid]

I knew KK was pretty much a progressive radical, but I never took him for somebody who would stealthy support a radical terrorist group that is not supported by the vast majority of the population.  Whose leaders live in luxury while their so called constituency bares the brunt of great hardship and who indiscriminately fire rockets into populated areas, rockets that were possibly purchased from some of the worst people on this earth.

 

I think you should re-read the thread.  I don't like Hamas.  I want Israel to live in peace and that means negotiating with the other side at some point.  It is pretty obvious that this incursion is not suddenly going to make Israel safer just like the last one didn't succeed.  None of that means that there is any moral equivalency between Hamas and Israel, there is not.  I don't think wanting Israel to make different strategic decisions means I am stealthily supporting Hamas, but that is exactly the kind of thing I would say, wouldn't it be?

I think we can all agree that if only Israel had a true moral and decisive leader like your hero Slobodan Milosovich this would all be going much better.

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

I knew KK was pretty much a progressive radical, but I never took him for somebody who would stealthy support a radical terrorist group that is not supported by the vast majority of the population.  Whose leaders live in luxury while their so called constituency bares the brunt of great hardship and who indiscriminately fire rockets into populated areas, rockets that were possibly purchased from some of the worst people on this earth.

 

I think you should re-read the thread.  I don't like Hamas.  I want Israel to live in peace and that means negotiating with the other side at some point.  It is pretty obvious that this incursion is not suddenly going to make Israel safer just like the last one didn't succeed.  None of that means that there is any moral equivalency between Hamas and Israel, there is not.  I don't think wanting Israel to make different strategic decisions means I am stealthily supporting Hamas, but that is exactly the kind of thing I would say, wouldn't it be?

I think we can all agree that if only Israel had a true moral and decisive leader like your hero Slobodan Milosovich this would all be going much better.

You want Israel to "negotiate" a peace without acknowledging the simple fact that Hamas is a terrorist organization that will negotiate nothing less than the total destruction of Israel. Until the palestinian people want to peacefully coexist with Israel, and elect leaders with authority to make that peace (even Arafat didn't have such a mandate, nor does Abbas, and obviously Hamas doesn't), peace won't happen. It's up to the palestinians. Until then, Israel must defend itself.

As for defending itself, it is not "pretty obvious" that the current offensive won't make Israel safer. That's not "pretty obvious" at all. The tunnel network needs to be destroyed. At lease in the short term, the rocket attacks will be reduced. There is a reason for the offensive.

You have a tendency to gloss over these simple facts. You also make dumb comments like you did above about how Netanyahu "lied" about Hamas killing three Israeli teens, as if that was the basis for the current offensive. It wasn't. If you really are pro-Israel and just playing devil's advocate, you're not doing it very well.

[felix rex]

You need to be stealthier than that, KK!

[Kat Kid]

I keep repeating the same things on my views, they are all over this thread so I don't honestly know what more there is to add.  Going point-by-point  is pretty tedious work at this point.  I don't think there is any new ground covered in that post ksuw.

I will simply add that I never claimed that the three murdered teens were the primary cause for the fighting.  I brought it up when we were talking about a tangential topic.

Again, I encourage you to retrace our steps here if you aren't clear on any of the points you brought up.

[michigancat]

Even dax seems to understand that Hamas is not the same thing as the Palestinean people.

[felix rex]

Hamas is a terrorist organization because they target civilians. It's important to remember that.

[star seed 7]

I knew KK was pretty much a progressive radical, but I never took him for somebody who would stealthy support a radical terrorist group that is not supported by the vast majority of the population.  Whose leaders live in luxury while their so called constituency bares the brunt of great hardship and who indiscriminately fire rockets into populated areas, rockets that were possibly purchased from some of the worst people on this earth.

 

Not very cool to talk about the USA like that dax

[OK_Cat]

They're all pink on the inside

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

I keep repeating the same things on my views, they are all over this thread so I don't honestly know what more there is to add.  Going point-by-point  is pretty tedious work at this point.  I don't think there is any new ground covered in that post ksuw.

I will simply add that I never claimed that the three murdered teens were the primary cause for the fighting.  I brought it up when we were talking about a tangential topic.

Again, I encourage you to retrace our steps here if you aren't clear on any of the points you brought up.

As far as I can tell, your position is that Israel should take bombs up their ass until they've made enough concessions to work out a deal agreeable to the Hamas government of Palestine, which is, of course, completely absurd.

[Kat Kid]

Looks as though Israel is going to enforce their 1.8 mile buffer zone in Gaza indefinitely to prevent any tunnels being built by Hamas.  That will mean 44% of the Gaza Strip will need to be vacated of all people and buildings, thus the reasoning for the destruction of entire blocks and neighborhoods and the repeated evacuations to central Gaza City.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/un-calls-for-immediate-cease-fire-in-gaza-as-lull-in-fighting-prevails/2014/07/28/01dea116-9195-424b-85b1-da93899d8250_story.html?hpid=z1

[_33]

What on earth do some of you want Israel to do besides what they're doing right now?  What is the alternative?

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

Probably not a good time to tell kat kid the City is going to make him tear down that shed he built on the setback.

[Cire]

What on earth do some of you want Israel to do besides what they're doing right now?  What is the alternative?

[Kat Kid]

What on earth do some of you want Israel to do besides what they're doing right now?  What is the alternative?

Well, that is kind of broad.  There are lots of things, lots of people are doing. 

I think, for instance, that Israel destroying 40% of Gaza to construct a "buffer" would be a pretty big mistake not just because of how terrible it would be for the people living in Gaza, but also because of how badly it will harm Israel in the long term.  I also think that Netanyahu's policy of settlement expansion and his unwillingness to strengthen Abbas (thus strengthening Hamas) has turned out pretty badly.

I think that there is lots and lots of evidence that the blockade on Gaza has not solved any of the fundamental security problems that face Israel (although it has unquestionably completely ended suicide bombings) and I think it is unreasonable to conclude that this incursion will solve any problems from Israel's perspective.  It just strikes me as incredibly short sighted even when judged on what Netanyahu and the IDF have stated are their objectives.

I think the only hope is for Israel long term is to realize that Abbas is the best partner for peace they have.  Israel and Abbas have a mutual interest in restoring the PA as the governing authority of Gaza, end the blockade, expand fishing rights in the Mediterranean, freeze settlement expansion in the West Bank and start negotiating a two-state solution.  Obviously Hamas could try to stop all that. 

Best case scenario: Israel thinks they can weaken Hamas to the point that Abbas can sweep in and negotiate all this stuff and be the savior, but I kind of doubt it.  Netanyahu has lots of pre-conditions that seem completely unacceptable to a Palestinian state: (Israel controlling the borders of the West Bank for example) and I think the longer that this fighting goes on, the more likely it is that Hamas is replaced by an even more extreme group.

[felix rex]

Hamas helmet cam video of tunnel raid on Shejaya: