Shane

[kso_FAN]

I think it's fair to say JO struggled with the transition and it took he and oscar more than half the season to figure it out. I don't really blame either one, that happens with coaching changes.

In Gipson's case, his struggles are rare and if anything he is flourishing in oscar's system this year. His main problems are when he gets in foul trouble.

[MakeItRain]

I think the change in Shane from Soph to Junior is a lot more than your average jump.  I think it is more the system benefiting Shane's skill set than just coaching, but to imply that it is the jump every sophomore makes is ridiculous

That cannot be quantified at all, not even a little bit. That first sentence is something someone says that just affirms what they think and there is no way to rebut the statement. I didn't say anything about every anything, that being said name me 10 players who didn't improve as upperclassmen & I'll even spot you Will. I will also point out to you something that Trim has pointed out several times. Shane spent nearly the entire non con in oscar's doghouse last season and he turned to Shane because he had to. Shane has spent more of the last season and a half on oscar's crap list than he has otherwise.

There is not a place you can go to that will quantify the typical player growth between years, I'll give you that.  But between his sophomore and junior seasons his eFG% went up 15% - which is absurd.  I think this is because, as Rusty hinted at, he has benefited by playing the 4 and having matchups against bigger guys who struggle to get out and challenge the 3 pointer. 

I wouldn't call it oscar's coaching because he didn't just make Shane that much better, he put him in better spots to succeed.  At the same time, I think the system also hurt players like JO and caused undersized bigs like Gip to struggle at times last season.

Right as I mentioned Shane moving to the 4 had as much to do with Jamar graduating than anything else.  Its reasonable to assume that he would have played the 4 no matter who the coach was because that is really the only position he would have seen the floor at. I'm not certain why people think oscar playing that line up last year was a stroke of genius, did he have any other choice?

[ChiComCat]

I think the change in Shane from Soph to Junior is a lot more than your average jump.  I think it is more the system benefiting Shane's skill set than just coaching, but to imply that it is the jump every sophomore makes is ridiculous

That cannot be quantified at all, not even a little bit. That first sentence is something someone says that just affirms what they think and there is no way to rebut the statement. I didn't say anything about every anything, that being said name me 10 players who didn't improve as upperclassmen & I'll even spot you Will. I will also point out to you something that Trim has pointed out several times. Shane spent nearly the entire non con in oscar's doghouse last season and he turned to Shane because he had to. Shane has spent more of the last season and a half on oscar's crap list than he has otherwise.

There is not a place you can go to that will quantify the typical player growth between years, I'll give you that.  But between his sophomore and junior seasons his eFG% went up 15% - which is absurd.  I think this is because, as Rusty hinted at, he has benefited by playing the 4 and having matchups against bigger guys who struggle to get out and challenge the 3 pointer. 

I wouldn't call it oscar's coaching because he didn't just make Shane that much better, he put him in better spots to succeed.  At the same time, I think the system also hurt players like JO and caused undersized bigs like Gip to struggle at times last season.

Right as I mentioned Shane moving to the 4 had as much to do with Jamar graduating than anything else.  Its reasonable to assume that he would have played the 4 no matter who the coach was because that is really the only position he would have seen the floor at. I'm not certain why people think oscar playing that line up last year was a stroke of genius, did he have any other choice?

I'm not saying its a stroke of genius or even that it helped the team, though I think it probably did, just that it helped Shane.  His other choice would've been utilizing JO and having Gip split time between the 4 and 5.

[kso_FAN]

Its highly unlikely Frank would've gone small, I don't think it fits his system. He would've played Gip, JO, and Diaz along with one of those bigs he was recruiting before he left. Shane would've been relegated to backing up Rod last year and occasionally playing the 2.

Nobody is saying oscar is a genius for going small, but he has to get some credit for making it work, especially on defense and rebounding at a pretty good level.

[fun muffin]

He really has improved greatly.  Weber effect???

idiot

thanks for the kind word

[MakeItRain]

Its highly unlikely Frank would've gone small, I don't think it fits his system. He would've played Gip, JO, and Diaz along with one of those bigs he was recruiting before he left. Shane would've been relegated to backing up Rod last year and occasionally playing the 2.

Nobody is saying oscar is a genius for going small, but he has to get some credit for making it work, especially on defense and rebounding at a pretty good level.

Why do people keep disregarding that the previous power forward was skinny and 6'7"? The changing narrative is irritating. People, myself included, got mad that Frank refused to play JO and Diaz together. Man its like we didn't spend 3 years complaining about Energy and Victor getting better than decent minutes.

YES, Weber played Shane at the 4 and Frank didn't. Weber had the luxury of seeing that Shane had two previous seasons to try to play the position he was recruited to play. And for the seemingly millionth time oscar put Shane at the 4 out of complete necessity, he was buried on Weber's bench as a guard. The three games before that Gonzaga game he was Rodney's backup and he had 11 minutes against Michigan and 2 DNPs. He made it work because of Shane's skill, no one thought going small would work in conference play because every single person thought of Shane as a guard, no one knew he would be a better passing but worse rebounding Jamar.

[kso_FAN]

Its highly unlikely Frank would've gone small, I don't think it fits his system. He would've played Gip, JO, and Diaz along with one of those bigs he was recruiting before he left. Shane would've been relegated to backing up Rod last year and occasionally playing the 2.

Nobody is saying oscar is a genius for going small, but he has to get some credit for making it work, especially on defense and rebounding at a pretty good level.

Why do people keep disregarding that the previous power forward was skinny and 6'7"? The changing narrative is irritating. People, myself included, got mad that Frank refused to play JO and Diaz together. Man its like we didn't spend 3 years complaining about Energy and Victor getting better than decent minutes.

YES, Weber played Shane at the 4 and Frank didn't. Weber had the luxury of seeing that Shane had two previous seasons to try to play the position he was recruited to play. And for the seemingly millionth time oscar put Shane at the 4 out of complete necessity, he was buried on Weber's bench as a guard. The three games before that Gonzaga game he was Rodney's backup and he had 11 minutes against Michigan and 2 DNPs. He made it work because of Shane's skill, no one thought going small would work in conference play because every single person thought of Shane as a guard, no one knew he would be a better passing but worse rebounding Jamar.

I have a hard time comparing Shane and Jamar. Regardless of their sizes, Jamar always played like a power forward and Shane always played like a guard.

And I'm well aware of how Shane started the season and when oscar went small.

[chum1]

Frank wanted Bangers down low.  oscar wants Sharpshooters at every position.  Shane's a Sharpshooter, but not a Banger.

[MakeItRain]

Shane's career numbers show a natural progression, not some kind of wild jump. Interestingly enough, his block and rebounding tempo free numbers regress his junior season from his freshman season. I won't attempt to use the block & rebounding numbers to prove a point about his discovery as a "big" because I think it is just a statistical anomaly.

Anyhow if you are a numbers person, strip everything else away, his numbers don't indicate a change in position or system, just an increase in playing time and what would be considered normal, possibly slightly better than normal, skill development.

http://kstateupdate.com/kansas-state-basketball/roster_player/shane-southwell?per_game=1&per_40=1&tempo_neutral=1&totals=1&game_type=1&chart1=points_avg&chart2=&chart3=

[MakeItRain]

Frank wanted Bangers down low.  oscar wants Sharpshooters at every position.  Shane's a Sharpshooter, but not a Banger.

That's fair, its an oversimplification like my Jamar comparo was, I don't consider Jamar a banger or Shane a sharpshooter, but that is a pretty fair argument against Frank playing Shane good minutes his junior year.

Strangely enough if Frank would have stayed here I think Shane would have gotten more minutes but it would have been minutes vacated by the departure of Will.

[kso_FAN]

Shane's career numbers show a natural progression, not some kind of wild jump. Interestingly enough, his block and rebounding tempo free numbers regress his junior season from his freshman season. I won't attempt to use the block & rebounding numbers to prove a point about his discovery as a "big" because I think it is just a statistical anomaly.

Anyhow if you are a numbers person, strip everything else away, his numbers don't indicate a change in position or system, just an increase in playing time and what would be considered normal, possibly slightly better than normal, skill development.

http://kstateupdate.com/kansas-state-basketball/roster_player/shane-southwell?per_game=1&per_40=1&tempo_neutral=1&totals=1&game_type=1&chart1=points_avg&chart2=&chart3=

There is big change/progression in Shane's game in 3PT shooting and the percentage of points he scores from 3 compared to from 2. I don't think that is some byproduct of playing time and a large factor in that was the change in system and the type of shots oscar's system generates compared to Frank's. That's not a knock on either system, I think Shane's game fits oscar better than it fit Frank.

[kso_FAN]

Frank wanted Bangers down low.  oscar wants Sharpshooters at every position.  Shane's a Sharpshooter, but not a Banger.

That's fair, its an oversimplification like my Jamar comparo was, I don't consider Jamar a banger or Shane a sharpshooter, but that is a pretty fair argument against Frank playing Shane good minutes his junior year.

Strangely enough if Frank would have stayed here I think Shane would have gotten more minutes but it would have been minutes vacated by the departure of Will.

While certainly Will was first out the door if Frank stayed, I would not have been surprised to see Shane far behind. Of all the wild rumors, I think those two were most likely to go, but that's just my speculation. I never thought Shane fit well with Frank.

[chum1]

Sophomore Shane averaged 2.5 points and 2.1 rebounds.  Junior Shane was honorable mention all Big 12. 

[dal9]

Sophomore Shane averaged 2.5 points and 2.1 rebounds.  Junior Shane was honorable mention all Big 12.

chalk one up for old-fashioned, regular stats.

[Belvis Noland]

Sophomore Shane averaged 2.5 points and 2.1 rebounds.  Junior Shane was honorable mention all Big 12.

Natural progression.

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

Guys, JO didn't play early last year because he was too winded and was a complete clusterfuck when he wasn't.

Shane didn't play well under frank because frank screamed at him every time he shot and benched him every time he got called for a foul.

Clearly the variable for Shane's natural progression was weber, while the variable for JOs regression was JO.  When JO bought in he was very effective and got minutes.

[Big Sam]

Guise,

I dunno, but I think that playing on a team that actually has a semblance of an offense under Weber (under Frank the offense was essentially was someone throw it up there and let's get about 3 offensive rebounds and hopefully one of the follow-ups goes in....) has made Shane look better.  And, as Shane and the team has become more comfortable with the offense and found their roles in it, their stats have improved.

Just sayin'.

[MakeItRain]

Guise,

I dunno, but I think that playing on a team that actually has a semblance of an offense under Weber (under Frank the offense was essentially was someone throw it up there and let's get about 3 offensive rebounds and hopefully one of the follow-ups goes in....) has made Shane look better.  And, as Shane and the team has become more comfortable with the offense and found their roles in it, their stats have improved.

Just sayin'.

I like you big sam, don't do this it won't end well

[kso_FAN]

Some of Shane is normal progression and some is the change in system. He's always been good at a variety of things, but the shot selection and 3PT shooting is definitely a product of the system change IMHO. I think the TO% improvement is a factor of the system as well.

[Belvis Noland]

For the record, I'm not on team "natural progression." 

It's pretty obvious, stats notwithstanding, that Shane's game has improved and/or his strengths have been better utilized under this system/coach. 

[Mixed-Nutz]

oscar's love for form shooting drills has a lot to do with Shane's progression. I think most of Shane's progression was natural, I don't think Frank and Shane were a good match thus stunting Shane's growth.

[Jackstack99EMAW]

Why does it matter what made him play better?  Just be happy the he is.

[Belvis Noland]

Why does it matter what made him play better?  Just be happy the he is.

Yeah, who cares whether our basketball coach is making our players better?   

I mean, how could that ever be worth discussing in a basketball sports blog? 

[75cat]

what was the weber effect on JO?  Will?

I believe that maybe Frank ruined Sprads. For whatever reason he (Will) has not progressed from the early part Freshman year as I anticipated.

[slobber]

what was the weber effect on JO?  Will?

I believe that maybe Frank ruined Sprads. For whatever reason he (Will) has not progressed from the early part Freshman year as I anticipated.

So Frank is blamed for regression and oscar is lauded for progression. Got it.