Author Topic: We look better than I thought we would  (Read 32500 times)

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Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: We look better than I thought we would
« Reply #100 on: November 04, 2013, 12:18:42 PM »
No one is making excuses, it's just the simple reality.   Some of you guys act like Weber was given a lifetime contract and that anyone else besides Weber would have been mega succesful.  Plus you listen too much to the Illini fans who have so much pent up rage over how $hitty (and  underachieving) their overall athletic program is right now that they have zero objectivity.   

Offline Trim

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Re: We look better than I thought we would
« Reply #101 on: November 04, 2013, 12:19:50 PM »
If Frank took last year's team and finished 2nd or 3rd in the Conference and got us to the round of 32, would the "excitement" be any higher than it is right now? 

Yes.

Offline Trim

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Re: We look better than I thought we would
« Reply #102 on: November 04, 2013, 12:21:36 PM »
Plus you listen too much to the Illini fans who have so much pent up rage over how $hitty (and  underachieving) their overall athletic program is right now that they have zero objectivity.   

Also paying even minimal attention to college basketball nationally. 

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Re: We look better than I thought we would
« Reply #103 on: November 04, 2013, 12:24:23 PM »
It’s excuses via bitching about Frank  - and which don’t factor in the same circumstances that want to be used when looking at oscar.  I don’t care about complaining about Frank – just not when it’s being laid as the groundwork for excuses for oscar.  It’s hypocritical. 

Offline CNS

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Re: We look better than I thought we would
« Reply #104 on: November 04, 2013, 12:25:57 PM »
No one is making excuses, it's just the simple reality.   Some of you guys act like Weber was given a lifetime contract and that anyone else besides Weber would have been mega succesful.  Plus you listen too much to the Illini fans who have so much pent up rage over how $hitty (and  underachieving) their overall athletic program is right now that they have zero objectivity.

Program momentum is an important and fragile thing for programs that have the recent history of ours.  Understanding the absolute gift we were given with Huggs, Bill Walker, Beas, Pullen, etc means being really nervous about drastic change.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: We look better than I thought we would
« Reply #105 on: November 04, 2013, 12:30:32 PM »
No one is making excuses, it's just the simple reality.   Some of you guys act like Weber was given a lifetime contract and that anyone else besides Weber would have been mega succesful.  Plus you listen too much to the Illini fans who have so much pent up rage over how $hitty (and  underachieving) their overall athletic program is right now that they have zero objectivity.

Program momentum is an important and fragile thing for programs that have the recent history of ours.  Understanding the absolute gift we were given with Huggs, Bill Walker, Beas, Pullen, etc means being really nervous about drastic change.

You do realize that guys like Pullen were great because, particularly by his senior season, we had very little if any offensive firepower around him right?  Even Rodney was still playing with the constant cloud of Frank's wrath hanging over his head.   Rodney's overall confidence was multi-fold higher this past season than it was at any time under Frank.   If Frank was still around IMO we don't get half the production out of Irving that we got last year because Irving was another one of those guys who couldn't breath incorrectly without getting yanked.

Also, the last several recruiting classes under Frank Martin are the last place anyone wants to look when discussing program momentum. 




Offline CNS

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Re: We look better than I thought we would
« Reply #106 on: November 04, 2013, 12:33:23 PM »
How many NCAA's did we make with Frank and how long has it been since we did that?  Seems like pretty good momentum to me. 

Offline Belvis Noland

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Re: We look better than I thought we would
« Reply #107 on: November 04, 2013, 12:36:27 PM »
If Frank took last year's team and finished 2nd or 3rd in the Conference and got us to the round of 32, would the "excitement" be any higher than it is right now? 

Yes.

why? 

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: We look better than I thought we would
« Reply #108 on: November 04, 2013, 12:37:46 PM »
How many NCAA's did we make with Frank and how long has it been since we did that?  Seems like pretty good momentum to me.

The guy walked into the head coaching job at K-State with Michael Beasley and Bill Walker waiting for him.

The guy went to the Elite Eight and subsequently parlayed that into abject mediocrity or worse on the recruiting trail.

Offline Trim

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Re: We look better than I thought we would
« Reply #109 on: November 04, 2013, 12:39:09 PM »
If Frank took last year's team and finished 2nd or 3rd in the Conference and got us to the round of 32, would the "excitement" be any higher than it is right now? 

Yes.

why? 

Coach would be a proven winner instead of a proven loser.

Offline Belvis Noland

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Re: We look better than I thought we would
« Reply #110 on: November 04, 2013, 12:40:21 PM »


i don't know and i don't care.  these are the wrong questions. 

art's here, he's not here.  i don't care.  oscar's fate is his.  it has nothing to do with frank. just like frank's successes and failures at KSU were all his.

all the excuses already lined up for oscar are aburd.

oscar isn't presently being judged (and never will be) in a vacuum.  He's judged within the context of where KSU basketball was when he took over.  This context includes who the coach was that preceded him and the state of the program under said coach. 

Likewise, Frank's tenure was judged within the context of KSU basketball before Frank/Hugs.  Frank is one of the best coach in KSU history, yet never even sniffed a conference title.  context. 

catzacker

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Re: We look better than I thought we would
« Reply #111 on: November 04, 2013, 12:43:56 PM »


i don't know and i don't care.  these are the wrong questions. 

art's here, he's not here.  i don't care.  oscar's fate is his.  it has nothing to do with frank. just like frank's successes and failures at KSU were all his.

all the excuses already lined up for oscar are aburd.

oscar isn't presently being judged (and never will be) in a vacuum.  He's judged within the context of where KSU basketball was when he took over.  This context includes who the coach was that preceded him and the state of the program under said coach. 

Likewise, Frank's tenure was judged within the context of KSU basketball before Frank/Hugs.  Frank is one of the best coach in KSU history, yet never even sniffed a conference title.  context.

There were a variety of factors/circumstances that were a part of Frank’s beginnings.  Just as there were oscar’s.  Do we have to compare the two?  No – because it’s the wrong question – it’s a waste of time.  For every “well but with oscar…” there’s a “well but with Frank”…..it’s a worthless conversation and one we’ve already had…over and over and over…..  The conversation…the question...is what is the standard for oscar.  The answer shouldn’t have the word “Frank” in it.  I don’t care what happened in Frank’s second year. It’s irrelevant  Not the same time, not the same circumstances, not the same program.   oscar needs to win.  I don’t care how many freshman he rolls out there.  I don’t care if Spradling is running the point.  Win.  That’s it.  He did that last year.   Get to the Tourney.

Offline Belvis Noland

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Re: We look better than I thought we would
« Reply #112 on: November 04, 2013, 12:44:10 PM »
If Frank took last year's team and finished 2nd or 3rd in the Conference and got us to the round of 32, would the "excitement" be any higher than it is right now? 

Yes.

why? 

Coach would be a proven winner instead of a proven loser.

So, even a grossly underachieving 3rd place with that team would have been A-ok because he'd won in the past?  I have my doubts.  eff, Snyder gets put through the ringer and he's got 2 titles.  I imagine at some point, Frank's inability to recruit at a high level and compete for conference titles was going to impact the fan base's "excitement" level. 

Offline Trim

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Re: We look better than I thought we would
« Reply #113 on: November 04, 2013, 12:57:18 PM »
If Frank took last year's team and finished 2nd or 3rd in the Conference and got us to the round of 32, would the "excitement" be any higher than it is right now? 

Yes.

why? 

Coach would be a proven winner instead of a proven loser.

So, even a grossly underachieving 3rd place with that team would have been A-ok because he'd won in the past?  I have my doubts.  eff, Snyder gets put through the ringer and he's got 2 titles.  I imagine at some point, Frank's inability to recruit at a high level and compete for conference titles was going to impact the fan base's "excitement" level. 

Well, you asked if it would be higher under your proposed scenario that it is in reality now.  I think it would.  I'd have bought season tickets.  Angel would be the face of the program instead of acne.  Any reservations about coaching would be "our recruiting has dipped" as opposed to "our coach is illinois' discarded garbage."  :dunno:

Offline Belvis Noland

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Re: We look better than I thought we would
« Reply #114 on: November 04, 2013, 12:59:00 PM »

There were a variety of factors/circumstances that were a part of Frank’s beginnings.  Just as there were oscar’s.  Do we have to compare the two?  No – because it’s the wrong question – it’s a waste of time.  For every “well but with oscar…” there’s a “well but with Frank”…..it’s a worthless conversation and one we’ve already had…over and over and over…..  The conversation…the question...is what is the standard for oscar.  The answer shouldn’t have the word “Frank” in it.  I don’t care what happened in Frank’s second year. It’s irrelevant  Not the same time, not the same circumstances, not the same program.   oscar needs to win.  I don’t care how many freshman he rolls out there.  I don’t care if Spradling is running the point.  Win.  That’s it.  He did that last year.   Get to the Tourney.

The question, "what is the standard for oscar" can only be answered by looking at what Frank did.  why is this so hard for you?  Sans Frank, we're a program with 30 years of losing, no NCAAS, no national brand, no GameDays at OOD.  In this context, oscar's standard for success would be making NIT runs with maybe an NCAA sprinkled in.

Of course, oscar's standard is much higher than a few NITs because, obviously, Frank Martin raised the bar beyond that.  He will continue to be compared to Frank in every way/shape/form.  Just like he was compared to Bill Self at Illinois.  Just like the next KU coach will be compared to Self.  Just like Frank Martin is compared to South Carolina's coach.  Just like Sean will be compared to Bill.  This is reality. 

This is why Trim isn't "excited" by oscar.  oscar is a lame, hand-clasping, raspy voiced pussy, compared to Frank's glaring, boot stomping, persona.  I think, in large part, oscar's biggest downfall with EMAWers is his lack of charisma, Illinois record notwithstanding.     

Offline The Whale

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Re: We look better than I thought we would
« Reply #115 on: November 04, 2013, 01:24:57 PM »

There were a variety of factors/circumstances that were a part of Frank’s beginnings.  Just as there were oscar’s.  Do we have to compare the two?  No – because it’s the wrong question – it’s a waste of time.  For every “well but with oscar…” there’s a “well but with Frank”…..it’s a worthless conversation and one we’ve already had…over and over and over…..  The conversation…the question...is what is the standard for oscar.  The answer shouldn’t have the word “Frank” in it.  I don’t care what happened in Frank’s second year. It’s irrelevant  Not the same time, not the same circumstances, not the same program.   oscar needs to win.  I don’t care how many freshman he rolls out there.  I don’t care if Spradling is running the point.  Win.  That’s it.  He did that last year.   Get to the Tourney.

The question, "what is the standard for oscar" can only be answered by looking at what Frank did.  why is this so hard for you?  Sans Frank, we're a program with 30 years of losing, no NCAAS, no national brand, no GameDays at OOD.  In this context, oscar's standard for success would be making NIT runs with maybe an NCAA sprinkled in.

Of course, oscar's standard is much higher than a few NITs because, obviously, Frank Martin raised the bar beyond that.  He will continue to be compared to Frank in every way/shape/form.  Just like he was compared to Bill Self at Illinois.  Just like the next KU coach will be compared to Self.  Just like Frank Martin is compared to South Carolina's coach.  Just like Sean will be compared to Bill.  This is reality. 

This is why Trim isn't "excited" by oscar.  oscar is a lame, hand-clasping, raspy voiced pussy, compared to Frank's glaring, boot stomping, persona.  I think, in large part, oscar's biggest downfall with EMAWers is his lack of charisma, Illinois record notwithstanding.   

The bolded above led to our coach (and by extension program) getting more time on national tv and more national press.

I miss that national recognition, regardless of who our current coach is.

Offline Stevesie60

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Re: We look better than I thought we would
« Reply #116 on: November 04, 2013, 01:44:48 PM »
I'm sorry, how many top 150 recruits has oscar landed while he's been here?

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: We look better than I thought we would
« Reply #117 on: November 04, 2013, 01:50:09 PM »
How many NCAA's did we make with Frank and how long has it been since we did that?  Seems like pretty good momentum to me.

The guy walked into the head coaching job at K-State with Michael Beasley and Bill Walker waiting for him.

The guy went to the Elite Eight and subsequently parlayed that into abject mediocrity or worse on the recruiting trail.

His last class included the best point guard to ever play for Kansas State.

Offline ksupamplemousse

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Re: We look better than I thought we would
« Reply #118 on: November 04, 2013, 02:00:46 PM »
Dax, show us on the doll where Frank touched you :Poke:
This is who I am...I have no problem crying. - Jerome Tang

Offline hatingfrancisco

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Re: We look better than I thought we would
« Reply #119 on: November 04, 2013, 02:01:20 PM »

His last class included the best point guard to ever play for Kansas State.

Nice one, troll.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: We look better than I thought we would
« Reply #120 on: November 04, 2013, 02:17:01 PM »

His last class included the best point guard to ever play for Kansas State.

Nice one, troll.

Oh look, it's hatingfrancis just letting us know that he doesn't like Sams or Angel. Real surprise there.

Offline Stevesie60

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Re: We look better than I thought we would
« Reply #121 on: November 04, 2013, 02:17:55 PM »
I'm sorry, how many top 150 recruits has oscar landed while he's been here?

 :impatient:

Offline hatingfrancisco

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Re: We look better than I thought we would
« Reply #122 on: November 04, 2013, 02:20:23 PM »
Oh look, it's hatingfrancis just letting us know that he doesn't like Sams or Angel. Real surprise there.

Angel wasn't the best point guard ever at K-State.   :lol:

Offline CNS

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Re: We look better than I thought we would
« Reply #123 on: November 04, 2013, 02:22:40 PM »
He was on pace to absolutely shatter assist record iirc.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: We look better than I thought we would
« Reply #124 on: November 04, 2013, 02:23:41 PM »
Oh look, it's hatingfrancis just letting us know that he doesn't like Sams or Angel. Real surprise there.

Angel wasn't the best point guard ever at K-State.   :lol:

I could see how a strong case could be made for Denis, but Angel is just a little bit better, imo. It's a shame we don't get him for 2 more years. He was truly a special player.