Waters

[Rams]

Sams Sucks. Waters Sucks. End Of Story.

what is it about sams you find suckiest? is it his 0 turnovers, his 75% completion %, or his 7+ yards per carry?

[kso_FAN]

Sams Sucks. Waters Sucks. End Of Story.

what is it about sams you find suckiest? is it his 0 turnovers, his 75% completion %, or his 7+ yards per carry?

I think its fair to give the coaching staff responsibility for who they play, but it would also seem fair to at least give Sams some of the responsibility for not being able to overtake Waters last spring or this fall.

[pissclams]

beginning to look like waters has zapped sams

[Rams]

Sams Sucks. Waters Sucks. End Of Story.

what is it about sams you find suckiest? is it his 0 turnovers, his 75% completion %, or his 7+ yards per carry?

I think its fair to give the coaching staff responsibility for who they play, but it would also seem fair to at least give Sams some of the responsibility for not being able to overtake Waters last spring or this fall.

we've touched on this, but waters' arm is good and I'm sure it looks even better in practice where there's no threat to get hit (which probably also makes him look like a much better runner).  it's possible the staff was simply looking for the best passer. if that's the case, sams probably didn't stand a chance.

[steve dave]

Sams Sucks. Waters Sucks. End Of Story.

what is it about sams you find suckiest? is it his 0 turnovers, his 75% completion %, or his 7+ yards per carry?

I think its fair to give the coaching staff responsibility for who they play, but it would also seem fair to at least give Sams some of the responsibility for not being able to overtake Waters last spring or this fall.

If this were the first time that LHC Bill Snyder flubbed a QB competition I would give him some leaway (not as much as you have, but more than I am) but it's not. He played Dunn over Ell for over a year and played Coffman over Klein for a year. I'm not going to concede that Sams sucks just because LHC Bill Snyder tells me to. You shouldn't either _FAN. All the data points we have from actual playing of football indicate otherwise.

[kso_FAN]

we've touched on this, but waters' arm is good and I'm sure it looks even better in practice where there's no threat to get hit (which probably also makes him look like a much better runner).  it's possible the staff was simply looking for the best passer. if that's the case, sams probably didn't stand a chance.

The staff is going to look for who they think gives them the best chance to win, period. While they can and will make mistakes (and have in the past), it seems simplistic to me to absolve Sams of all responsibility because of some preconceived bias from the staff. It would seem that Sams had all the advantages going into last spring with 2 seasons at K-State under his belt and one as the back-up QB behind Klein last season. I will even dismiss his first year because he was mainly a scout team player, but I refuse to just let him slide with the advantage he had over Waters coming into spring football last year.

I think the play calling in games and use of the QB in games are fair game because I think they've been mismanaged, but it takes a tremendous Sams' bias to completely dismiss him of any responsibility in not being able to take the starting QB job from Waters.

[kso_FAN]

I'm not going to concede that Sams sucks just because LHC Bill Snyder tells me to. You shouldn't either _FAN. All the data points we have from actual playing of football indicate otherwise.

That's fair, and I acknowledge that this isn't a first time thing under Snyder.

Also, I never said Sams sucks, nor did I mean to imply it. I am only saying he didn't/hasn't passed Waters and he's had opportunities to do so.

[steve dave]

I'm not going to concede that Sams sucks just because LHC Bill Snyder tells me to. You shouldn't either _FAN. All the data points we have from actual playing of football indicate otherwise.

That's fair, and I acknowledge that this isn't a first time thing under Snyder.

Also, I never said Sams sucks, nor did I mean to imply it. I am only saying he didn't/hasn't passed Waters and he's had opportunities to do so.

bill isn't infallable _FAN. he's not the rough ridin' pope. "he hasn't passed waters and he's had the opportunities to do so" is a lot of LHC Bill Snyder apology in one sentence.

[kso_FAN]

bill isn't infallable _FAN. he's not the rough ridin' pope. "he hasn't passed waters and he's had the opportunities to do so" is a lot of LHC Bill Snyder apology in one sentence.

I don't think he's infallible and he clearly makes mistakes, but overall in his career he's been pretty good with QBs. Even in the examples you cited, both Roberson and Klein developed into really good QBs after having to compete with guys that had a much worse career than they did. Its reasonable that this is happening again with Sams, but we'll see. And I'm not sold that Roberson or Klein would've been better off had they just been inserted into the starting line-up from the start in their situations either. If that makes me a tuckish Snyder apologist so be it.

[catzacker]

Would Klein have looked good if we had asked him to pass way more than he was capable of?  Like, it’s all about what was/is involved in the competition.  A midget isn’t going to win a high jump, but he’ll win a limbo contest.

[steve dave]

It's pretty unlike you to go against what we've seen on the field to default to Snyder must be right anyway because he's Bill. That would make a pretty terrible _FAN Frames. Like, maybe a Kitchen Frames.

[kso_FAN]

Would Klein have looked good if we had asked him to pass way more than he was capable of?  Like, it’s all about what was/is involved in the competition.  A midget isn’t going to win a high jump, but he’ll win a limbo contest.

Again, I have no problem questioning how they've been used in games. The fact that Sams hasn't been allowed to throw or check into throws isn't good in-game coaching if they really wanted to give him a shot in games.

[Rage Against the McKee]

This is far worse than Dunn starting over Roberson and Coffman starting over Klein because Dunn and Coffman didn't turn the ball over nearly as much as Waters is. Both Klein and Roberson were poor passers early in their careers, so it made a little bit of sense that Bill would be afraid to play them every down, but you don't bench a guy for being a poor passer and then keep playing another guy who can't protect the football.

[kso_FAN]

It's pretty unlike you to go against what we've seen on the field to default to Snyder must be right anyway because he's Bill. That would make a pretty terrible _FAN Frames. Like, maybe a Kitchen Frames.

I've let the evidence speak in my analysis, and will again this week. My entire point is not to say Snyder is infallible and 100% correct with this decision, nor is it to say that Sams not playing is 100% his fault. But I do not think its unfair to give Sams a bit of the responsibility in not passing Waters by this point.

[kso_FAN]

This is far worse than Dunn starting over Roberson and Coffman starting over Klein because Dunn and Coffman didn't turn the ball over nearly as much as Waters is. Both Klein and Roberson were poor passers early in their careers, so it made a little bit of sense that Bill would be afraid to play them every down, but you don't bench a guy for being a poor passer and then keep playing another guy who can't protect the football.

Dunn's first year at K-State he completed 49% of his passes at 5.7 YPA and had 4 TDs to go with 8 TDs.

I partially understand the Coffman hate, but his SR year numbers were actually pretty good; 65% completions, 7.8 YPA, 14 TDs and 7 INTs. That team had much bigger issues than Coffman.

[Rage Against the McKee]

I imagine that in practice, Waters and Sams see exactly the same look defensively, which is very unrealistic because Sams is never going to face the defensive packages that Waters has been facing. If Bill were to review the Texas tape and have the scout team play that way against Sams, I think he would be pleasantly surprised at just how well the air raid works.

['taterblast]

i'm usually pretty quick to defend snyder, but this whole situation has me so perplexed. i just don't get it. we all saw sams in the spring game, against the same shitty defense waters faced.

by all accounts, sams is a respected teammate that has maybe missed some classes, shown up late to a few things, but generally respected and not in the "doghouse."

he hasn't turned the ball over in games, he's completed most of the passes that he's been allowed to throw. he is a dynamic runner and athlete.

we are still calling QB runs with rough ridin' waters in the game. and just so we're clear that's all on the Dimel/Miller machine. mainly Dimel. the whole "clear it with bill" thing about play calling never existed or at least doesn't exist anymore.

if sams really does suck at passing i just wish he would put him in when we're down by 30 against okie state and let him just throw the eff out of the ball, to prove it to everyone. but until then, what in the hell is going on.

[Rage Against the McKee]

This is far worse than Dunn starting over Roberson and Coffman starting over Klein because Dunn and Coffman didn't turn the ball over nearly as much as Waters is. Both Klein and Roberson were poor passers early in their careers, so it made a little bit of sense that Bill would be afraid to play them every down, but you don't bench a guy for being a poor passer and then keep playing another guy who can't protect the football.

Dunn's first year at K-State he completed 49% of his passes at 5.7 YPA and had 4 TDs to go with 8 TDs.

I partially understand the Coffman hate, but his SR year numbers were actually pretty good; 65% completions, 7.8 YPA, 14 TDs and 7 INTs. That team had much bigger issues than Coffman.

Waters has a better completion percentage, but he has turned the ball over 7 times in 4 games. If he would throw the ball away more often, he would get sacked less and have less turnovers, but his completion percentage and YPA would look a bit worse.

[steve dave]

i'm usually pretty quick to defend snyder, but this whole situation has me so perplexed. i just don't get it. we all saw sams in the spring game, against the same shitty defense waters faced.

by all accounts, sams is a respected teammate that has maybe missed some classes, shown up late to a few things, but generally respected and not in the "doghouse."

he hasn't turned the ball over in games, he's completed most of the passes that he's been allowed to throw. he is a dynamic runner and athlete.

we are still calling QB runs with rough ridin' waters in the game. and just so we're clear that's all on the Dimel/Miller machine. mainly Dimel. the whole "clear it with bill" thing about play calling never existed or at least doesn't exist anymore.

if sams really does suck at passing i just wish he would put him in when we're down by 30 against okie state and let him just throw the eff out of the ball, to prove it to everyone. but until then, what in the hell is going on.

yeah

[kso_FAN]

Waters has a better completion percentage, but he has turned the ball over 7 times in 4 games. If he would throw the ball away more often, he would get sacked less and have less turnovers, but his completion percentage and YPA would look a bit worse.

The turnovers are a humongous problem. I do wish Sams would get a more complete offensive package when he is in games.

[kso_FAN]

i'm usually pretty quick to defend snyder, but this whole situation has me so perplexed. i just don't get it. we all saw sams in the spring game, against the same shitty defense waters faced.

by all accounts, sams is a respected teammate that has maybe missed some classes, shown up late to a few things, but generally respected and not in the "doghouse."

he hasn't turned the ball over in games, he's completed most of the passes that he's been allowed to throw. he is a dynamic runner and athlete.

we are still calling QB runs with rough ridin' waters in the game. and just so we're clear that's all on the Dimel/Miller machine. mainly Dimel. the whole "clear it with bill" thing about play calling never existed or at least doesn't exist anymore.

if sams really does suck at passing i just wish he would put him in when we're down by 30 against okie state and let him just throw the eff out of the ball, to prove it to everyone. but until then, what in the hell is going on.

yeah

Agreed, those are all reasonable questions and concerns.

[Rams]

I'm not going to concede that Sams sucks just because LHC Bill Snyder tells me to. You shouldn't either _FAN. All the data points we have from actual playing of football indicate otherwise.

That's fair, and I acknowledge that this isn't a first time thing under Snyder.

Also, I never said Sams sucks, nor did I mean to imply it. I am only saying he didn't/hasn't passed Waters and he's had opportunities to do so.

bill isn't infallable _FAN. he's not the rough ridin' pope. "he hasn't passed waters and he's had the opportunities to do so" is a lot of LHC Bill Snyder apology in one sentence.

#popefrancis4ksu

[CNS]

Shitty running and staring down receivers bother me, but honestly I could totally live with that if we were winning and not turning the ball over.  Snyder has always been about protecting the ball, not making stupid mistakes, and running the clock.  It's like he couldn't give a crap about any one of the three this season. 

[steve dave]

Shitty running and staring down receivers bother me, but honestly I could totally live with that if we were winning and not turning the ball over.  Snyder has always been about protecting the ball, not making stupid mistakes, and running the clock.  It's like he couldn't give a crap about any one of the three this season.

yeah, our new 3 and outs take up about 1/2 of the clock time that our old 3 and outs did. TX getting 45 cracks at our new lynch mob isn't really a recipe for success when we aren't scoring for crap.

[steve dave]

also, I blame the good plays for not being able to overcome the shitty plays despite having years of sitting in that tome of a playbook to do so. they bear some of the responsibility here.