Author Topic: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread  (Read 437958 times)

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Offline sys

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2725 on: February 23, 2017, 01:08:09 PM »
like, i've personally witnessed rulings that are way worse in terms of logic about the importance of the "waterway" and the damage done to it by the alteration, but the party involved is a giant company not some dumbass with 16 cows so no one writes them up in the local paper much less the failing nyt.
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Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2726 on: February 23, 2017, 01:10:37 PM »
i basically agree that the epa should back the eff off on the dude in the story (and also that they've gotten a little crazy on how they define waters of the us, which is a semi-different issue).

but, at the same time, that is, if i read correctly, a permanent stream that they bulldozed willnilly, and iirc, knowing that it was in violation of existing regs.  the issue isn't building a farm pond, it's altering the streambed.  dig your pond outside the streambed and pipe the water over, dumbasses.

it's also pretty obvious it's a fishing pond, not a farm pond.  a 50k coldwater trout pond for 16 cows, gmafb.

That was my first thought, but the article said that he acquired all necessary state permits, and given that it's not a navigable stream, I'm not sure if he knew or should have known he was in violation of any existing regs.

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2727 on: February 23, 2017, 01:23:18 PM »
Who cares if it was a trout pond or a cattle pond.  It was his own land and not three toed gerbil habitat.

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2728 on: February 23, 2017, 01:25:31 PM »
Who cares if it was a trout pond or a cattle pond.  It was his own land and not three toed gerbil habitat.

well, that's the current law.  ag use is exempted.
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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2729 on: February 23, 2017, 02:22:05 PM »
I hate the oil/coal industry, but in reality, I should probably thank them.  They've kept me busy working on spill cleanup for the past 6 years.  Million gallons of oil and billions in cleanup money (hey don't feel sorry for them, insurance covered the first 750 mil) later and we're still at it, although not quite the 70 hr work weeks I used to put in.  Even developed some methods to identify at-risk rivers and strategic locations for recovery implementation in case of another riverine spill due to failing pipelines and negligence.  But lets be honest, the strategic part is just so they can tell the EPA they have a plan and will be compliant.  They fully know that if one of their pipes bursts under the great lakes the plans will mean jack.  They're prepared to pay the costs and fines because the money running through those pipes is far greater than any fine they'll ever pay.

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2730 on: February 23, 2017, 03:01:00 PM »
EPA: water of the US includes the urine stored in your bladder.

Nonpsychos: the EPA is out of control

Lib7: regressocon wants to abolish the epa, dump toxic waste into the rivers and turn the skies orange

Cam: Koch Bros. :curse:

OFA: the EPA is the most useful political tool since the SS, which was the dreamiest.

 :lol:
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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2731 on: February 23, 2017, 03:05:16 PM »
If there's one thing we know for sure, the o&g industry has gotten uber rich spending billions of dollars exploring miles beneath the ground for a commodity just so they can hurry up and dump it down the drain and pay fines.  They don't call it black gold for a reason, that's for sure.
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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2732 on: February 23, 2017, 04:07:40 PM »
If there's one thing we know for sure, the o&g industry has gotten uber rich spending billions of dollars exploring miles beneath the ground for a commodity just so they can hurry up and dump it down the drain and pay fines.  They don't call it black gold for a reason, that's for sure.

I still don't know if you are deliberately obtuse or if you really do struggle to grasp simple concepts.

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2733 on: February 23, 2017, 04:08:03 PM »
The second one
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2734 on: February 23, 2017, 05:49:10 PM »
The second one

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2735 on: February 23, 2017, 05:52:11 PM »
If there's one thing we know for sure, the o&g industry has gotten uber rich spending billions of dollars exploring miles beneath the ground for a commodity just so they can hurry up and dump it down the drain and pay fines.  They don't call it black gold for a reason, that's for sure.

I still don't know if you are deliberately obtuse or if you really do struggle to grasp simple concepts.

You're the dumbass who basically stated the industry prefers to pay fines than implement reasonable controls. That's lol absurd and inaccurate. Negligence is how these guys get laid with exemplary damages and there's hundreds of well funded environmental groups laying in waiting to pounce. What you've described is an extreme exception and anything but ordinary course.
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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2736 on: February 23, 2017, 07:21:52 PM »
If there's one thing we know for sure, the o&g industry has gotten uber rich spending billions of dollars exploring miles beneath the ground for a commodity just so they can hurry up and dump it down the drain and pay fines.  They don't call it black gold for a reason, that's for sure.

I still don't know if you are deliberately obtuse or if you really do struggle to grasp simple concepts.

You're the dumbass who basically stated the industry prefers to pay fines than implement reasonable controls. That's lol absurd and inaccurate. Negligence is how these guys get laid with exemplary damages and there's hundreds of well funded environmental groups laying in waiting to pounce. What you've described is an extreme exception and anything but ordinary course.

You probably shouldn't accuse me, or anybody, for throwing out extreme exceptions given that is the very basis of almost every argument I've seen you try to make.  Unless you like kicking your own feet out from under you.  Secondly, your construction of straw-men is tiring.  I mean, I get it, why waste brain power to actually try and articulate a cognitive response when you can just act boorish and wildly misinterpret anything disagreeing with your beliefs.

And, while my example may be an extreme one of the total shitstorm that can happen when companies are reckless and negligent, it doesnt negate the fact that it is way more common than you play it out to be.  For the record, my client is an oil company, not the EPA.  I don't think they are going out there just thinking of ways to spill their oil, but we've already gone over your penchant for that argumentative style.  I also do actually believe that at least their environmental team does care about keeping spills to a minimum because of the environmental impact.  That said, minimum is the key word here.  Spills happen, and they will continue happening regardless of how many checks are put in place.  There were checks in place here, and some dudley-do-wrong behind a switchboard decided the computer telling him there was a problem ignored it and kept opening the shutoff valves.  Pretending an oil company can just put checks in place and everything is hunky dory is assinine.  If you don't realize they put in spill contingency plans, budget billions for cleanup and fines, weigh risk/rewards for where they pipe product, etc.. then I'm at a loss.  It's simple economics, that black gold is worth nothing if they can't send it to market.  They'll stuff money into any politicians g-string if they can ensure that happens, and they'll accept some risks such as losing millions in product and paying hefty fines if it means trillions in profit.  They don't want the spill to happen of course, but they'll also cut corners to ensure the green keeps flowing.
.

Offline camKSU

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2737 on: February 23, 2017, 09:19:31 PM »
If there's one thing we know for sure, the o&g industry has gotten uber rich spending billions of dollars exploring miles beneath the ground for a commodity just so they can hurry up and dump it down the drain and pay fines.  They don't call it black gold for a reason, that's for sure.

I still don't know if you are deliberately obtuse or if you really do struggle to grasp simple concepts.

You're the dumbass who basically stated the industry prefers to pay fines than implement reasonable controls. That's lol absurd and inaccurate. Negligence is how these guys get laid with exemplary damages and there's hundreds of well funded environmental groups laying in waiting to pounce. What you've described is an extreme exception and anything but ordinary course.

You probably shouldn't accuse me, or anybody, for throwing out extreme exceptions given that is the very basis of almost every argument I've seen you try to make.  Unless you like kicking your own feet out from under you.  Secondly, your construction of straw-men is tiring.  I mean, I get it, why waste brain power to actually try and articulate a cognitive response when you can just act boorish and wildly misinterpret anything disagreeing with your beliefs.

And, while my example may be an extreme one of the total shitstorm that can happen when companies are reckless and negligent, it doesnt negate the fact that it is way more common than you play it out to be.  For the record, my client is an oil company, not the EPA.  I don't think they are going out there just thinking of ways to spill their oil, but we've already gone over your penchant for that argumentative style.  I also do actually believe that at least their environmental team does care about keeping spills to a minimum because of the environmental impact.  That said, minimum is the key word here.  Spills happen, and they will continue happening regardless of how many checks are put in place.  There were checks in place here, and some dudley-do-wrong behind a switchboard decided the computer telling him there was a problem ignored it and kept opening the shutoff valves.  Pretending an oil company can just put checks in place and everything is hunky dory is assinine.  If you don't realize they put in spill contingency plans, budget billions for cleanup and fines, weigh risk/rewards for where they pipe product, etc.. then I'm at a loss.  It's simple economics, that black gold is worth nothing if they can't send it to market.  They'll stuff money into any politicians g-string if they can ensure that happens, and they'll accept some risks such as losing millions in product and paying hefty fines if it means trillions in profit.  They don't want the spill to happen of course, but they'll also cut corners to ensure the green keeps flowing.
.

This right here.

This isn't some Sierra Club tree-hugging leftist shill. This guy works in the industry, is on the front lines, and sees things first hand... And yet he can see the bigger picture. It would serve us all well to listen to him.

We aren't going to shut off the valves or pipelines over night, cars and the grid aren't going to be converted to be 100% "clean" in an instant, but there does need to be a regulatory agency tasked with enforcing policy and penalizing polluters.

As well we should be quickly using all our focus and urgency to expand alternative energy sources, generation, and storage. Going to extreme lengths, at all costs, with wanton disregard for the long term consequences to extract dirty finite fuels is a recipe for disaster and insensitive to the future of the planet for life as we know it.

Clean water and air should not be a political issue.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2017, 09:37:50 PM by camKSU »
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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2738 on: February 24, 2017, 06:39:03 AM »
If there's one thing we know for sure, the o&g industry has gotten uber rich spending billions of dollars exploring miles beneath the ground for a commodity just so they can hurry up and dump it down the drain and pay fines.  They don't call it black gold for a reason, that's for sure.

I still don't know if you are deliberately obtuse or if you really do struggle to grasp simple concepts.

You're the dumbass who basically stated the industry prefers to pay fines than implement reasonable controls. That's lol absurd and inaccurate. Negligence is how these guys get laid with exemplary damages and there's hundreds of well funded environmental groups laying in waiting to pounce. What you've described is an extreme exception and anything but ordinary course.

You probably shouldn't accuse me, or anybody, for throwing out extreme exceptions given that is the very basis of almost every argument I've seen you try to make.  Unless you like kicking your own feet out from under you.  Secondly, your construction of straw-men is tiring.  I mean, I get it, why waste brain power to actually try and articulate a cognitive response when you can just act boorish and wildly misinterpret anything disagreeing with your beliefs.

And, while my example may be an extreme one of the total shitstorm that can happen when companies are reckless and negligent, it doesnt negate the fact that it is way more common than you play it out to be.  For the record, my client is an oil company, not the EPA.  I don't think they are going out there just thinking of ways to spill their oil, but we've already gone over your penchant for that argumentative style.  I also do actually believe that at least their environmental team does care about keeping spills to a minimum because of the environmental impact.  That said, minimum is the key word here.  Spills happen, and they will continue happening regardless of how many checks are put in place.  There were checks in place here, and some dudley-do-wrong behind a switchboard decided the computer telling him there was a problem ignored it and kept opening the shutoff valves.  Pretending an oil company can just put checks in place and everything is hunky dory is assinine.  If you don't realize they put in spill contingency plans, budget billions for cleanup and fines, weigh risk/rewards for where they pipe product, etc.. then I'm at a loss.  It's simple economics, that black gold is worth nothing if they can't send it to market.  They'll stuff money into any politicians g-string if they can ensure that happens, and they'll accept some risks such as losing millions in product and paying hefty fines if it means trillions in profit.  They don't want the spill to happen of course, but they'll also cut corners to ensure the green keeps flowing.
.

This right here.

This isn't some Sierra Club tree-hugging leftist shill. This guy works in the industry, is on the front lines, and sees things first hand... And yet he can see the bigger picture. It would serve us all well to listen to him.

We aren't going to shut off the valves or pipelines over night, cars and the grid aren't going to be converted to be 100% "clean" in an instant, but there does need to be a regulatory agency tasked with enforcing policy and penalizing polluters.

As well we should be quickly using all our focus and urgency to expand alternative energy sources, generation, and storage. Going to extreme lengths, at all costs, with wanton disregard for the long term consequences to extract dirty finite fuels is a recipe for disaster and insensitive to the future of the planet for life as we know it.

Clean water and air should not be a political issue.

Let's be clear, I am definitely egalitarian-communitarian, or "liberal" as it were.  Climate change is happening regardless of what we do but we do have a hand in speeding up the process.  This is scientific theory and until someone can actually prove the hypothesis wrong, that is what it is.  Larger impacts than the dreaded "sea-level rise" are ocean acidification, desertification, and shifting growing zones.  Let's be honest, without the Aquifer half of Kansas would be a freaking wasteland(some may argue it already is) and it is only going to get worse.  But, I'm just as large a proponent of emerging from the fossil fuel age because, well why not?  The future is available right now and newer cleaner technologies which can lessen our dependence on a finite commodity can only be a good thing. Not to mention provide many more permanent jobs than any pipeline will ever create.  The largest hurdle is, and probably always will be, a better battery.  Invest there.  I find it odd that a country which has long prided itself on being innovative, taking charge, a world leader, etc..  is now just content with sitting back on its haunches while the rest of the world is actively thinking about and building the future.

As for the EPA, I think anyone that has worked alongside them long enough will tell you it becomes a love-hate relationship.  It is an integral agency that is built on a solid foundation.  The problems often come with overreach and ever-shifting criteria.  I can't count the amount of times where we thought a section was done, met all guidelines, criteria were good, and then all of the sudden a new directive is in place, new criteria, new tests, etc.. 

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2739 on: February 24, 2017, 09:02:41 AM »
Pruitt is vehemently 100% against sue and settle, which I would hope everyone in this thread would support.




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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2740 on: February 24, 2017, 09:41:48 AM »
What does the Kansas is a wasteland argument have to do with anything?

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2741 on: February 24, 2017, 09:57:35 AM »
You know you've been whipped when your 1000-word novela attempting to clarify and restate your position could have just as easily been summarized in three words: yeah, you're right
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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2742 on: February 24, 2017, 10:29:40 AM »
What does the Kansas is a wasteland argument have to do with anything?

It was in the context of desertification and shifting growing zones.  As temperatures rise and rainfall patterns become more sporadic/intense, large areas of kansas will essentially become fringe desert.  That coupled with a likely northward shift of growing zones, much of the heartland will no longer be fertile cropland.  I believe ag scientists at k-state have been looking at crop yields based on rising temperatures actually.  Just did a search and found this article which I read a couple years ago. http://www.k-state.edu/media/newsreleases/feb15/climatewheat21815.html

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2743 on: February 24, 2017, 10:42:33 AM »
What does the Kansas is a wasteland argument have to do with anything?

It was in the context of desertification and shifting growing zones.  As temperatures rise and rainfall patterns become more sporadic/intense, large areas of kansas will essentially become fringe desert.  That coupled with a likely northward shift of growing zones, much of the heartland will no longer be fertile cropland.  I believe ag scientists at k-state have been looking at crop yields based on rising temperatures actually.  Just did a search and found this article which I read a couple years ago. http://www.k-state.edu/media/newsreleases/feb15/climatewheat21815.html
SW and NW Kansas will be deserts because the Ogallala and Dakota aquifers will be pumped dry in 30 years, not because of whatever climate stuff you're claiming.   

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2744 on: February 24, 2017, 10:48:59 AM »
You know you've been whipped when your 1000-word novela attempting to clarify and restate your position could have just as easily been summarized in three words: yeah, you're right
Do you always tuck your tail like a scared dog?  Or just in your virtual presence?

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2745 on: February 24, 2017, 10:52:04 AM »
What does the Kansas is a wasteland argument have to do with anything?

It was in the context of desertification and shifting growing zones.  As temperatures rise and rainfall patterns become more sporadic/intense, large areas of kansas will essentially become fringe desert.  That coupled with a likely northward shift of growing zones, much of the heartland will no longer be fertile cropland.  I believe ag scientists at k-state have been looking at crop yields based on rising temperatures actually.  Just did a search and found this article which I read a couple years ago. http://www.k-state.edu/media/newsreleases/feb15/climatewheat21815.html
SW and NW Kansas will be deserts because the Ogallala and Dakota aquifers will be pumped dry in 30 years, not because of whatever climate stuff you're claiming.   
I guess you missed my reference to the aquifer being the only reason they weren't deserts already...

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2746 on: February 24, 2017, 11:00:10 AM »
What does the Kansas is a wasteland argument have to do with anything?

It was in the context of desertification and shifting growing zones.  As temperatures rise and rainfall patterns become more sporadic/intense, large areas of kansas will essentially become fringe desert.  That coupled with a likely northward shift of growing zones, much of the heartland will no longer be fertile cropland.  I believe ag scientists at k-state have been looking at crop yields based on rising temperatures actually.  Just did a search and found this article which I read a couple years ago. http://www.k-state.edu/media/newsreleases/feb15/climatewheat21815.html
SW and NW Kansas will be deserts because the Ogallala and Dakota aquifers will be pumped dry in 30 years, not because of whatever climate stuff you're claiming.   
I guess you missed my reference to the aquifer being the only reason they weren't deserts already...
You're right, the Great Plains was a desert before the 1950s

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2747 on: February 24, 2017, 11:29:48 AM »
What does the Kansas is a wasteland argument have to do with anything?

It was in the context of desertification and shifting growing zones.  As temperatures rise and rainfall patterns become more sporadic/intense, large areas of kansas will essentially become fringe desert.  That coupled with a likely northward shift of growing zones, much of the heartland will no longer be fertile cropland.  I believe ag scientists at k-state have been looking at crop yields based on rising temperatures actually.  Just did a search and found this article which I read a couple years ago. http://www.k-state.edu/media/newsreleases/feb15/climatewheat21815.html

Really makes you wonder how states like Texas and Oklahoma have any agriculture at all really.  Or rough ridin' Mexico.

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2748 on: February 24, 2017, 12:22:46 PM »
What does the Kansas is a wasteland argument have to do with anything?

It was in the context of desertification and shifting growing zones.  As temperatures rise and rainfall patterns become more sporadic/intense, large areas of kansas will essentially become fringe desert.  That coupled with a likely northward shift of growing zones, much of the heartland will no longer be fertile cropland.  I believe ag scientists at k-state have been looking at crop yields based on rising temperatures actually.  Just did a search and found this article which I read a couple years ago. http://www.k-state.edu/media/newsreleases/feb15/climatewheat21815.html

Really makes you wonder how states like Texas and Oklahoma have any agriculture at all really.  Or rough ridin' Mexico.
Aquifers and irrigation for the western areas.  same as western Kansas.  Half of Mexico is in the tropics and the Sierra Madre range provides an agricultural region in northern mexico in the same way the Sierra Nevadas provide for the Central Valley.

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2749 on: February 24, 2017, 01:34:45 PM »
Going to be fascinating to see what kind of carnage the massive wind turbines going in here on the coastal plain foist upon the bird population. 

Particularly since the area is the winter home of migrating birds of prey in addition to the indigenous population.


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