The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread

[EMAWican]

Well, the animals belong to the people, not the landowners.  And flying a drone over private property isn't necessarily trespassing.

True, but I found it interesting that there was a lack of transparency until after the fact.

[Emo EMAW]

Well, the animals belong to the people, not the landowners.  And flying a drone over private property isn't necessarily trespassing.

True, but I found it interesting that there was a lack of transparency until after the fact.

Believe it or not people may want to hide the fact they had threatened or endangered species on their property.

[sys]

Explain critical habitat to me strictly for a fish or mussel species, please.

i'm a terrestrial biologist.  if there's a difference in how the law treats aquatic species, i don't know what it is.

[EMAWican]

Explain critical habitat to me strictly for a fish or mussel species, please.

i'm a terrestrial biologist.  if there's a difference in how the law treats aquatic species, i don't know what it is.

Awesome! That explains you being a snake guru.

[camKSU]

The epa's own assessments have found no evidence that fracking causes earthquakes or pollutes groundwater. It's an unfounded moratorium without substantive basis, just like the pipelines that were blocked for no rough ridin' reason.

Again, by no means am I saying that the EPA (or any government agency for that matter) is perfect or without possible improvements but let's not kid ourselves into thinking that what they are doing is equal or worse than the behaviors or policies in the oil and gas industry at large. Especially Koch Industries.

Oh and here are some other perspectives, findings, and studies on the matters of fracking, earthquakes, and groundwater.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/drilling-for-earthquakes/

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fracking-can-contaminate-drinking-water/

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

Koch Industries is not an e&p company. Good rough ridin' grief, the crap you people believe

[Emo EMAW]

Cam https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.nytimes.com/2015/09/19/us/regulatory-war-fought-over-a-wyoming-familys-pond.amp.html

[ednksu]

Koch Industries is not an e&p company. Good rough ridin' grief, the crap you people believe

http://www.kochexploration.com/
http://www.kochenergyservices.com/Services/Power/
http://www.kochenergyservices.com/services/naturalgas/

[camKSU]

Koch Industries is not an e&p company. Good rough ridin' grief, the crap you people believe

http://www.kochexploration.com/
http://www.kochenergyservices.com/Services/Power/
http://www.kochenergyservices.com/services/naturalgas/

 

[camKSU]

Cam https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.nytimes.com/2015/09/19/us/regulatory-war-fought-over-a-wyoming-familys-pond.amp.html

Great example of EPA overreach. What really bothers me about this story and the EPA's action in this instance, is that it instantly overshadows all the other more important work they do. They lose credibility in the community and with the public, and it allows industry to get away with more and go on the offensive against regulations while people are outraged by the overreach.

Does that change the fact that there is the clean air/water act? No. Does it change the fact that for a lot of companies in this industry, it's cheaper to pay the fine for a spill or accident than it is for them to keep on the necessary maintenance and service? No. Is the oil and gas, exploration and production industry subject to greed and cutting corners with massive implications affecting thousands if not millions of people? Yes.

We should absolutely reform the EPA in cases like this specific anecdotal instance... However, I am not ready to throw the baby out with the bath water when it comes to the regulation and conservation of our natural resources or our environment.

[EMAWican]

Cam https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.nytimes.com/2015/09/19/us/regulatory-war-fought-over-a-wyoming-familys-pond.amp.html

Does it change the fact that for a lot of companies in this industry, it's cheaper to pay the fine for a spill or accident than it is for them to keep on the necessary maintenance and service? No. Is the oil and gas, exploration and production industry subject to cutting corners with massive implications affecting thousands if not millions of people? No.

Links?

Why should the EPA fine a company for an accident? (FYI they currently are and they settle because court costs) Unless there is negligence on the company's part, an accident is an accident. Also, it's not illegal to have spills or releases, it's what you do after it happens and the cause(s) of the spill or release. It basically becomes a question of environmental impact and if there was negligence.

I have no idea what companies can afford to pay fines instead of to fix issues, and this kind of shows me that you're familiar with an older version of the EPA.

Last year they raised their penalties (most almost doubled, a couple over doubled) for environmental non-compliance per violation, per day to:

-$70,117 for RCRA
-$93,750 for Air
-$51,570 or $53,907 for Water, and
-$37,500 and $18,750 for Chemical

What companies can afford these fines? Keep in mind that this is per violation, per day, and most single environmental issues have dozens of violations. And the "per day" means until the issue is 100% fixed.

I had a client where a disgruntled employee climbed a fence and cut multiple locks to open a valve on a big diesel tank at a facility in the middle of the night. The diesel reached a stream and started a fish kill. Guess what happened? On top of the company immediately cleaning up the spill 100% upon detection for $$$$, losing revenue from the lost inventory, and fixing the problem on their dime, the EPA fined the company a year later for not "being secure enough regarding SPCC regs." The company settled because court costs. The EPA sure showed them!

[EMAWican]

Does anyone want to discuss how the EPA fines publicly-owned utilities like wastewater plants, power generators, etc. when they have violations that costs the taxpayers instead of a public government agency helping another public government agency?

[Emo EMAW]

Cam https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.nytimes.com/2015/09/19/us/regulatory-war-fought-over-a-wyoming-familys-pond.amp.html

Great example of EPA overreach. What really bothers me about this story and the EPA's action in this instance, is that it instantly overshadows all the other more important work they do. They lose credibility in the community and with the public, and it allows industry to get away with more and go on the offensive against regulations while people are outraged by the overreach.

Does that change the fact that there is the clean air/water act? No. Does it change the fact that for a lot of companies in this industry, it's cheaper to pay the fine for a spill or accident than it is for them to keep on the necessary maintenance and service? No. Is the oil and gas, exploration and production industry subject to greed and cutting corners with massive implications affecting thousands if not millions of people? Yes.

We should absolutely reform the EPA in cases like this specific anecdotal instance... However, I am not ready to throw the baby out with the bath water when it comes to the regulation and conservation of our natural resources or our environment.

Hey, you asked for examples where the EPA was "out of control," as if they are not or as if there aren't any examples.  I provided one.  And then you act like people here are advocating for the complete shutting down of the EPA?  I'll admit I don't read every post in this thread so correct me if I'm seeing things incorrectly. 

[camKSU]

Cam https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.nytimes.com/2015/09/19/us/regulatory-war-fought-over-a-wyoming-familys-pond.amp.html

Great example of EPA overreach. What really bothers me about this story and the EPA's action in this instance, is that it instantly overshadows all the other more important work they do. They lose credibility in the community and with the public, and it allows industry to get away with more and go on the offensive against regulations while people are outraged by the overreach.

Does that change the fact that there is the clean air/water act? No. Does it change the fact that for a lot of companies in this industry, it's cheaper to pay the fine for a spill or accident than it is for them to keep on the necessary maintenance and service? No. Is the oil and gas, exploration and production industry subject to greed and cutting corners with massive implications affecting thousands if not millions of people? Yes.

We should absolutely reform the EPA in cases like this specific anecdotal instance... However, I am not ready to throw the baby out with the bath water when it comes to the regulation and conservation of our natural resources or our environment.

Links?

Why should the EPA fine a company for an accident? (FYI they currently are and they settle because court costs) Unless there is negligence on the company's part, an accident is an accident. Also, it's not illegal to have spills or releases, it's what you do after it happens and the cause(s) of the spill or release. It basically becomes a question of environmental impact and if there was negligence.

I have no idea what companies can afford to pay fines instead of to fix issues, and this kind of shows me that you're familiar with an older version of the EPA.

Last year they raised their penalties (most almost doubled, a couple over doubled) for environmental non-compliance per violation, per day to:

-$70,117 for RCRA
-$93,750 for Air
-$51,570 or $53,907 for Water, and
-$37,500 and $18,750 for Chemical

What companies can afford these fines? Keep in mind that this is per violation, per day, and most single environmental issues have dozens of violations. And the "per day" means until the issue is 100% fixed.

I had a client where a disgruntled employee climbed a fence and cut multiple locks to open a valve on a big diesel tank at a facility in the middle of the night. The diesel reached a stream and started a fish kill. Guess what happened? On top of the company immediately cleaning up the spill 100% upon detection for $$$$, losing revenue from the lost inventory, and fixing the problem on their dime, the EPA fined the company a year later for not "being secure enough regarding SPCC regs." The company settled because court costs. The EPA sure showed them!

I'm glad to hear that they fixed that convenient loop-hole, sounds like the people in charge at that time were putting in place some  regulations and penalties with actual teeth to them.

The non-response to finding out that the kochs are in fact active in the e&p industry is noted.

As well, the shoulder shrug to the COLUSION between republican attorney generals and fossil fuel industry is also noted.

Also, try and comprehend that I am not saying that the EPA without fault. Try.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/inside-the-koch-brothers-toxic-empire-20140924

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/07/us/politics/energy-firms-in-secretive-alliance-with-attorneys-general.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=1

[Rage Against the McKee]

Cam https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.nytimes.com/2015/09/19/us/regulatory-war-fought-over-a-wyoming-familys-pond.amp.html

Great example of EPA overreach. What really bothers me about this story and the EPA's action in this instance, is that it instantly overshadows all the other more important work they do. They lose credibility in the community and with the public, and it allows industry to get away with more and go on the offensive against regulations while people are outraged by the overreach.

Does that change the fact that there is the clean air/water act? No. Does it change the fact that for a lot of companies in this industry, it's cheaper to pay the fine for a spill or accident than it is for them to keep on the necessary maintenance and service? No. Is the oil and gas, exploration and production industry subject to greed and cutting corners with massive implications affecting thousands if not millions of people? Yes.

We should absolutely reform the EPA in cases like this specific anecdotal instance... However, I am not ready to throw the baby out with the bath water when it comes to the regulation and conservation of our natural resources or our environment.

Hey, you asked for examples where the EPA was "out of control," as if they are not or as if there aren't any examples.  I provided one.  And then you act like people here are advocating for the complete shutting down of the EPA?  I'll admit I don't read every post in this thread so correct me if I'm seeing things incorrectly.

There definitely are people who want to abolish the EPA, but I'm not sure if there are any here. Ted Cruz gets thunderous applause every time he mentions abolishing the EPA and the IRS.

[camKSU]

Cam https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.nytimes.com/2015/09/19/us/regulatory-war-fought-over-a-wyoming-familys-pond.amp.html

Great example of EPA overreach. What really bothers me about this story and the EPA's action in this instance, is that it instantly overshadows all the other more important work they do. They lose credibility in the community and with the public, and it allows industry to get away with more and go on the offensive against regulations while people are outraged by the overreach.

Does that change the fact that there is the clean air/water act? No. Does it change the fact that for a lot of companies in this industry, it's cheaper to pay the fine for a spill or accident than it is for them to keep on the necessary maintenance and service? No. Is the oil and gas, exploration and production industry subject to greed and cutting corners with massive implications affecting thousands if not millions of people? Yes.

We should absolutely reform the EPA in cases like this specific anecdotal instance... However, I am not ready to throw the baby out with the bath water when it comes to the regulation and conservation of our natural resources or our environment.

Hey, you asked for examples where the EPA was "out of control," as if they are not or as if there aren't any examples.  I provided one.  And then you act like people here are advocating for the complete shutting down of the EPA?  I'll admit I don't read every post in this thread so correct me if I'm seeing things incorrectly.

Thanks for the article, I read it and agree that it is overreach with the way it is framed and presented. I appreciate seeing the other side of the argument.

In regards to people shutting the EPA down, you should read more about Scott Pruitt, Trump, the GOP, and the oil and gas industry... Because that's exactly their end-goal.

[Emo EMAW]

Cam https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.nytimes.com/2015/09/19/us/regulatory-war-fought-over-a-wyoming-familys-pond.amp.html

Great example of EPA overreach. What really bothers me about this story and the EPA's action in this instance, is that it instantly overshadows all the other more important work they do. They lose credibility in the community and with the public, and it allows industry to get away with more and go on the offensive against regulations while people are outraged by the overreach.

Does that change the fact that there is the clean air/water act? No. Does it change the fact that for a lot of companies in this industry, it's cheaper to pay the fine for a spill or accident than it is for them to keep on the necessary maintenance and service? No. Is the oil and gas, exploration and production industry subject to greed and cutting corners with massive implications affecting thousands if not millions of people? Yes.

We should absolutely reform the EPA in cases like this specific anecdotal instance... However, I am not ready to throw the baby out with the bath water when it comes to the regulation and conservation of our natural resources or our environment.

Hey, you asked for examples where the EPA was "out of control," as if they are not or as if there aren't any examples.  I provided one.  And then you act like people here are advocating for the complete shutting down of the EPA?  I'll admit I don't read every post in this thread so correct me if I'm seeing things incorrectly.

There definitely are people who want to abolish the EPA, but I'm not sure if there are any here. Ted Cruz gets thunderous applause every time he mentions abolishing the EPA and the IRS.

Then Cam or you should find those people and argue with them.

[Rage Against the McKee]

Well I already said that I kind of like the Pruitt pick.

[star seed 7]

Pretty sure the ksuw/cat27/fsd/dax/pruitt deplorable wing of regresocons want to fully get rid of the epa (and other important organizations).

[Emo EMAW]

Well I hate boost their argument but Cam cmon dude let's not pretend the EPA doesn't at least suck a little crap.

[star seed 7]

Well I hate boost their argument but Cam cmon dude let's not pretend the EPA doesn't at least suck a little crap.

He's said it's not perfect like 10 times. Do people even read each others posts?

[Emo EMAW]

Then why would he ask for examples when someone mentions they are out of control?  Why in the eff?  Just let that go if he knows it to be true himself.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[star seed 7]

Probably to see if your example is wacko regresocon bullshit.

[sys]

i basically agree that the epa should back the eff off on the dude in the story (and also that they've gotten a little crazy on how they define waters of the us, which is a semi-different issue).

but, at the same time, that is, if i read correctly, a permanent stream that they bulldozed willnilly, and iirc, knowing that it was in violation of existing regs.  the issue isn't building a farm pond, it's altering the streambed.  dig your pond outside the streambed and pipe the water over, dumbasses.

it's also pretty obvious it's a fishing pond, not a farm pond.  a 50k coldwater trout pond for 16 cows, gmafb.

[star seed 7]

Like, ksuw thinks the epa is "out of control" because they don't let business dump toxic crap into the water supply