Author Topic: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread  (Read 437656 times)

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Offline star seed 7

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2275 on: December 08, 2016, 10:16:22 AM »
Any live on the ground reports of Mexico becoming great again also?
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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2276 on: December 08, 2016, 10:17:34 AM »
I was in MX 2 days after election and can confirm it was pretty great.   :dunno:

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2277 on: December 08, 2016, 01:20:54 PM »
The epa has implimented regulations that opetate to condemn the following activities:
Construction of new refinery
Construction of new power plant
Production of natural gas (Reg OOOOa).

We can have non-orange river water without eliminating our ability to create energy.  If we rolled the epa back 15 years, nobody would notice and everything would be bettet. Obama and friends have used it like the gestapo.

Why pursue finite resources when there are emerging renewable sources that are actually creating more jobs and have more built up potential? (Not to mention cleaner and more environmentally friendly.)

Wow. Delusional
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Offline camKSU

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2278 on: December 08, 2016, 01:43:43 PM »
The epa has implimented regulations that opetate to condemn the following activities:
Construction of new refinery
Construction of new power plant
Production of natural gas (Reg OOOOa).


We can have non-orange river water without eliminating our ability to create energy.  If we rolled the epa back 15 years, nobody would notice and everything would be bettet. Obama and friends have used it like the gestapo.

Why pursue finite resources when there are emerging renewable sources that are actually creating more jobs and have more built up potential? (Not to mention cleaner and more environmentally friendly.)

Wow. Delusional

Tap-out. Got it.
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Offline _33

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2279 on: December 08, 2016, 03:44:16 PM »
If you've ever said "tap-out" on a message board or social media you need to take a long hard look in the mirror and ask yourself if this is who you want to be for the rest of your life.

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2280 on: December 08, 2016, 03:45:10 PM »
So true

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2281 on: December 08, 2016, 03:45:51 PM »
Sounds like 33 has tapped out of life
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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2282 on: December 08, 2016, 04:12:59 PM »
The epa has implimented regulations that opetate to condemn the following activities:
Construction of new refinery
Construction of new power plant
Production of natural gas (Reg OOOOa).

We can have non-orange river water without eliminating our ability to create energy.  If we rolled the epa back 15 years, nobody would notice and everything would be bettet. Obama and friends have used it like the gestapo.

Why pursue finite resources when there are emerging renewable sources that are actually creating more jobs and have more built up potential? (Not to mention cleaner and more environmentally friendly.)

cost

Really though? The cost for fossil fuels is pretty significant for an energy source that we can only use once. In comparison, renewables are a source we can use for years upon years (even with a high cost).

I really enjoy you, Camsock. I love these bizarre arguments.

First, we're in no greater risk of running out of fossil fuels than we are of wind and sun. Quite the contrary, it is wind and sun that is so unreliable due to weather that you can never truly depend upon them - you have to have backup fossil fuel plants at the ready for when the weather isn't providing those "renewables."

Second, all that wind and solar equipment has a finite life and requires constant maintenance. They are incredibly expensive. But don't take my word for it - if wind and solar were such a bargain, they wouldn't have to be massively subsidized just to stay afloat. They exist solely on the largess of the public dime - at least for the time being. I look forward to ending their subsidies and killing them off.
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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2283 on: December 08, 2016, 05:38:38 PM »
Hating clean energy and being hopeful of it's downfall is such a strange take from someone who has 4 kids (and allegedly loves them)
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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2284 on: December 08, 2016, 05:41:05 PM »
selfless, really

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2285 on: December 08, 2016, 05:52:14 PM »
"clean" energy.
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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2286 on: December 08, 2016, 05:53:36 PM »
The epa has implimented regulations that opetate to condemn the following activities:
Construction of new refinery
Construction of new power plant
Production of natural gas (Reg OOOOa).

We can have non-orange river water without eliminating our ability to create energy.  If we rolled the epa back 15 years, nobody would notice and everything would be bettet. Obama and friends have used it like the gestapo.

Why pursue finite resources when there are emerging renewable sources that are actually creating more jobs and have more built up potential? (Not to mention cleaner and more environmentally friendly.)

cost

Really though? The cost for fossil fuels is pretty significant for an energy source that we can only use once. In comparison, renewables are a source we can use for years upon years (even with a high cost).

I really enjoy you, Camsock. I love these bizarre arguments.

First, we're in no greater risk of running out of fossil fuels than we are of wind and sun. Quite the contrary, it is wind and sun that is so unreliable due to weather that you can never truly depend upon them - you have to have backup fossil fuel plants at the ready for when the weather isn't providing those "renewables."

Second, all that wind and solar equipment has a finite life and requires constant maintenance. They are incredibly expensive. But don't take my word for it - if wind and solar were such a bargain, they wouldn't have to be massively subsidized just to stay afloat. They exist solely on the largess of the public dime - at least for the time being. I look forward to ending their subsidies and killing them off.

Those costs have been consistently going down over time to the point where it's almost viable without needing subsidies. Dispatchable energy can be solved with batteries as battery technology has also improved over time. Also, tf is this?

Quote
Second, all that wind and solar equipment has a finite life and requires constant maintenance.

Do fossil fuels magically not require any maintenance either? All those major coal plants bud are 40+ years old and need constant maintenance, to the tune of millions of dollars as well. I think the last time the US has built any coal plants was 2010, since then natural gas has been preferred since gas prices have bottomed. I'd be 100% behind killing coal for good, I hate when I have to go to coal plants, disgusting places that leave your nose black with soot when you go home, cleaning yourself is nasty, and we're burning that crap into the atmosphere :yuck: Natural gas at least only "bad" product is CO2 but I doubt we'll see eye to eye on that, but at least it puts less pollutants in the air.

The thing at least where i agree with cam is that you can leverage a lot of jobs if we continue to invest in alternative energy sources. It can become a great boon to US business to be a leader in that field, instead of trying to do the things the old way.

Where I will agree with you is that the more alternative sources you add increases the stress on the grid and introduces new problems, but really those problems kinda solve themselves naturally when you have more distributed sources like wind and solar, especially paired with batteries. Also, concentration of energy sources (big power plants) do make for awfully nice targets for terrorists to focus on.
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Offline chum1

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2287 on: December 08, 2016, 07:33:02 PM »
There's only enough room for fossil fuels in this free market.

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2288 on: December 08, 2016, 07:45:40 PM »
Please stop arguing that wind and solar are nearly equal in cost to fossil fuels. It's demonstrably false, an absurd claim.

Please also stop denying that wind energy would exist absent tax subsidies. It wouldn't, it is not economic. Solar is probably the same, but is beyond insignificant as an energy resource. It's less than 1% of electricity generation.

Stating you have a moral/religious/irrational preference for wind and solar over oil and gas is a sufficient argument. There's no need to make up stupid crap. Just know that we're at least several decades away from fossil fuels generating even half of our energy. We will not be "energy clean" in your lifetime, drop the fantasy.
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Offline camKSU

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2289 on: December 08, 2016, 09:08:13 PM »
Please stop arguing that wind and solar are nearly equal in cost to fossil fuels. It's demonstrably false, an absurd claim.

Please also stop denying that wind energy would exist absent tax subsidies. It wouldn't, it is not economic. Solar is probably the same, but is beyond insignificant as an energy resource. It's less than 1% of electricity generation.

Stating you have a moral/religious/irrational preference for wind and solar over oil and gas is a sufficient argument. There's no need to make up stupid crap. Just know that we're at least several decades away from fossil fuels generating even half of our energy. We will not be "energy clean" in your lifetime, drop the fantasy.

Are you really trying to claim that renewables shouldn't be pursued because of subsidies? Dude, fake sugar dick, do you even realize the subsidies the oil and gas industry have gotten over their lifetime? To that end... again the argument can be made that because of their potential renewables should be pursued because they are clean and are not finite. The sunk costs to extract oil and gas in all the hard to reach areas aren't worth the effort we put into getting them at some point... and furthermore they are causing extreme damage to the environment in terms of generational cost.  To say that oil and gas are no more finite than sun or wind it absurd... and frankly not even worth arguing as that is so ignorant of reality and science as to not be worth my time. However, let me get a good 8 hrs of sleep and I may revisit this with additional links to evidence that you can ignore. Just keep burying that head in the sand further, my friend, eventually you'll hit China (where they invented climate change apparently).
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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2290 on: December 08, 2016, 09:30:09 PM »
You've responded to a number of arguments I've not made. I'll say this, I don't give a crap what anybody pursues on their own time, with their own money.

Your knowledge of the oil and gas industry is clearly limted to rhetoric you've come across in your "clean" energy fantasy. It's inaccurate misinformation and demonstrative of a common someone who makes me uncomfortable fallacy--that oil (largely used to make gasoline) is somehow going to be replaced by wind or solar (used to generate a small % of electricity).
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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2291 on: December 09, 2016, 09:55:06 AM »
You've responded to a number of arguments I've not made. I'll say this, I don't give a crap what anybody pursues on their own time, with their own money.

Your knowledge of the oil and gas industry is clearly limted to rhetoric you've come across in your "clean" energy fantasy. It's inaccurate misinformation and demonstrative of a common someone who makes me uncomfortable fallacy--that oil (largely used to make gasoline) is somehow going to be replaced by wind or solar (used to generate a small % of electricity).

You may not be personally making the arguments but the other so-called knuckle-dragging conservatives in this country (and BBS forum) are.

My knowledge of the oil and gas industry is pretty intimate considering my family worked in it for decades, however... That doesn't mean I ignore the science, experts, or even the military (CIA & DOD both have put out papers regarding the potential impacts of climate change and of the vulnerability of centralized power plants).

I will admit, you are correct that 90% of our current energy production in this country is through fossil fuels. But take a moment and pull yourself away from the present, away from how we do things currently... What are more resilient and stable production sources? The sun, the tides, the heat from earth's core, wind, hydro, algae/biomass... or finite fossil fuels at the bottom of the ocean, under mountains, mixed in sand or hundred of feet underground. Now consider the energy required to "harvest" these two different types of energy and the acceleration of energy consumption worldwide. Would you rather compete for a finite resource with other emerging economies and countries in unstable areas of the world or... have a vast, decentralized energy network from a variety of renewable sources? The answer seems pretty clear and this is without even considering the environmental impacts of cleaner air, water, stabilized climate projections.

But let's look at it another way, economically. With 90% of our current energy coming from fossil fuels, a finite resource, the long-term forecasts for cost of business and production are ever increasing while the number of jobs decrease. As well there is very little room for growth in this industry as they have already maxed out the market penetration. Alternately, renewable energy production has a huge opportunity to grow. To transition our energy production in this country from oil and gas to renewable will result in millions of jobs, new infrastructure, and massive investment. This would have an incredibly beneficial impact on the economy as there is more room to grow. It is also less monopolized, which means more competition and more jobs.

Regarding petroleum and transportation... We are already seeing the future. Look at Tesla, or Nissan's Leaf, or Toyota's Prius. We have cars in the country that run on electricity that perform just as well if not better than their internal-combustion counter-parts. So it is not a stretch to think it can keep improving or growing. The only limiting factor here is energy storage (batteries) and even that is getting better everyday.

Having said all of that, openness to alternative energy sources and renewables does require an ability to look past the present, the status quo, and "how we have always done things". It requires a growth mindset. But it is absolutely needed and it is not rhetoric or snow-flake dreaming, but don't believe me... Listen to the pentagon.

http://www.defense.gov/News/Article/Article/612710

(Here are few other links for you to peruse at your leisure)

http://alternativeenergy.procon.org/
http://www.resilience.org/stories/2015-09-28/will-renewables-replace-fossil-fuels
http://www.energyandpolicy.org/value-of-solar-versus-fossil-fuels/
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/24/business/energy-environment/solar-and-wind-energy-start-to-win-on-price-vs-conventional-fuels.html
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 09:58:27 AM by camKSU »
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Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2292 on: December 09, 2016, 09:58:55 AM »
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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2293 on: December 09, 2016, 10:10:29 AM »
CamEdn

Edn already has a long winded sock
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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2294 on: December 09, 2016, 10:40:47 AM »
people are really struggling on it

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2295 on: December 09, 2016, 10:47:42 AM »
A train is a train, you guys.

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2296 on: December 09, 2016, 11:49:52 AM »
Maybe not your lifetime FSD but it will be mine.
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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2297 on: December 09, 2016, 03:32:06 PM »
dude it was freezing at arrowhead last night

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2298 on: December 09, 2016, 06:01:30 PM »
A train is a train, you guys.

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Re: The Scott Pruitt "If the models are all wrong" thread
« Reply #2299 on: December 09, 2016, 06:02:44 PM »
I mean, if Cam thinks drilling a hole into sedimentary rock is more expensive than drilling into and through the basement rock granite, or installing a tremendous amount of equipment and infrastructure at the bottom of the ocean, who are we tonargue with him?

If Cam thinks the recent explosion in daily oil production through unbelievably precise new horizontal drilling techniques reflects an industry with nowhere left to go and no room to grow technologically, how can we disagree with him.

Afterall, windmills are certainly something this world hadn't seen prior to medievil times. Such exciting and innovative technology. Nevermind hydropower, and the advancements it made in grain milling centuries ago.

Cam, I favor all kinds of energy production, I think the tidal stuff is really neat. I've invested in solar. But I'm not a dimwit or an uneducated moron, I know it can't compete economically with fossil fuels now or in the next decade or 3, even when it's highly subsidized. So excuse me for pointing out how absurd your pov is.
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