Author Topic: Unions  (Read 11208 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Mikeyis4dcats

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 5040
  • pogonophobia: n. a fear of beards
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #75 on: April 04, 2013, 08:26:39 AM »
Why do any of you give a eff if other people unionize?  What's it to you?

ever try managing them? They're a pain in the ass.

only every single day since, oh, May 16, 1999.

Offline HerrSonntag

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 3443
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #76 on: April 04, 2013, 08:31:08 AM »
Can we rename this thread to "People who understand economics vs. people who don't" ?

Offline Institutional Control

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 15575
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #77 on: April 04, 2013, 08:33:38 AM »
The CEO of WalMart makes more in one hour than most of his employees make in a year. Thank god they crush unions that try to form in their stores.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 38015
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #78 on: April 04, 2013, 08:38:21 AM »
Can we rename this thread to "People who understand economics vs. people who don't" ?

Or maybe we could just rename the thread to "People who think companies should honor agreements that they chose to make with unions vs those who think the company should just be able to throw that agreement in the trash because no fair".

Offline GCJayhawker

  • Point Plank'r
  • Combo-Fan
  • *
  • Posts: 845
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #79 on: April 04, 2013, 08:51:33 AM »
Can we rename this thread to "People who understand economics vs. people who don't" ?

Or maybe we could just rename the thread to "People who think companies should honor agreements that they chose to make with unions vs those who think the company should just be able to throw that agreement in the trash because no fair".

We should rename it "People who don't trust businesses not to screw over employees vs people who think companies will probably do things on the up and up without unions"

Offline HerrSonntag

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 3443
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #80 on: April 04, 2013, 09:56:25 AM »
Can we rename this thread to "People who understand economics vs. people who don't" ?

Or maybe we could just rename the thread to "People who think companies should honor agreements that they chose to make with unions vs those who think the company should just be able to throw that agreement in the trash because no fair".

We should rename it "People who don't trust businesses not to screw over employees vs people who think companies will probably do things on the up and up without unions"

Its a two way street, a company needs me and i need them.  If i think i'm worth more than i'm getting paid i can take my services elsewhere.  If i truely am, and my absense is going to hurt the company more than a raise, than we'll work something out.

Offline CNS

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 38095
  • I'm Athletes
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #81 on: April 04, 2013, 10:17:41 AM »
Those who say that osha isn't needed don't know many contractors.

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 2

yeah.   and we won't even start discussing manufacturing or heavy industry.   the stuff I've seen, even WITH the threat of OSHA....
Don't know about manufacturing or heavy industry but they are out of control in commercial construction.

 :facepalm:
So are you saying that without OSHA in commercial construction, workers would be forced to work in unsafe conditions or risk losing their jobs?

yes.   There are a LOT of contractors that operate unsafe WITH OSHA.   There would be even more without that threat.

Bottom line is that OSHA costs money to employers.  You bet they would trim that cost at very least if not do what they can to fully eliminate it. 

Offline The Tonya Harding of Twitter Users Creep

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 9740
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #82 on: April 04, 2013, 10:32:28 AM »
Have an uncle who is a Union leader for the Post Office. Guy didn't even graduate high school and makes bank to basically tell people to eff off.
I think what my friend Mitch is trying to say is that true love is blind.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 38015
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #83 on: April 04, 2013, 02:35:30 PM »
Can we rename this thread to "People who understand economics vs. people who don't" ?

Or maybe we could just rename the thread to "People who think companies should honor agreements that they chose to make with unions vs those who think the company should just be able to throw that agreement in the trash because no fair".

We should rename it "People who don't trust businesses not to screw over employees vs people who think companies will probably do things on the up and up without unions"

Its a two way street, a company needs me and i need them.  If i think i'm worth more than i'm getting paid i can take my services elsewhere.  If i truely am, and my absense is going to hurt the company more than a raise, than we'll work something out.

Alternatively, you could work a union job where some guy does all of that negotiation for you, so you don't have to threaten to walk out to get raises, and if you aren't happy with your pay you can still go find another job anyway.

Union workers get nothing more than their employers agree to pay. The employer is just as much to blame as the union for companies that go under for not being able to fund their union pension plan, etc.

Offline cfbandyman

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 11098
  • To da 'ville.
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #84 on: April 04, 2013, 06:12:53 PM »
Those who say that osha isn't needed don't know many contractors.

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 2

 :lol:

Funny cause it's true.

Holy eff it is. I haven't been working long but the things the electricians I've worked with try to pull is unbelievable, and I'd say they're "better than most." My company has a contract with this company to build them some electrical equipment building (best way to describe it) and they're messing it up all sorts managerial-wise, but what's really crazy is the  :sdeek:  :eek:  :horrorsurprise: things the workers do on a daily basis. How the heck someone hasn't seriously injured themselves is beyond comprehension.
Are these workers being forced, against their will and with the threat of termination by their foremen/superintendents, to do these crazy things?

The exact opposite, at least the guys I work with are trying to keep them from doing these crazy things, it's more of a case of missing management rather than micromanagement. Granted they're trying to make brutal deadlines but that does not mean safety can be circumvented, the reputation of my company is built on safety records so any mishap can keep us from getting other jobs. It's more of a "when the cats away the mice will play" mentality that's the point trying to be proven. Can there be forced work in places? Sure, but really contractors (and more accurately the worker under them) are in the mentality of "getting the job done" not "getting the job done safely" or at least thinking it through. Hence the need for OSHA.
A&M Style: 1/19/13 Co-Champion of THE ED's College Basketball Challenge

The art of the deal with it poors

OG Elon hater


Offline TheHamburglar

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 5973
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #85 on: April 04, 2013, 07:01:32 PM »
I've never gotten the whole "shame" thing.  Every time someone hires non-union workers to do something the union pays people to stand outside and shake signs that say some message with "shame" in it.  Why should the people willing to do the work for a lower wage feel shame?  I recently stayed at a hotel where union workers were standing outside shaking a sign at me and telling me that I should feel "shame" for staying at a hotel that used non-union workers every time I walked in/out.  Why do they think should I care?

I got a guy on the other line about some white walls

Offline schreds21

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 1498
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #86 on: April 04, 2013, 07:27:53 PM »
Those who say that osha isn't needed don't know many contractors.

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 2

 :lol:

Funny cause it's true.

Holy eff it is. I haven't been working long but the things the electricians I've worked with try to pull is unbelievable, and I'd say they're "better than most." My company has a contract with this company to build them some electrical equipment building (best way to describe it) and they're messing it up all sorts managerial-wise, but what's really crazy is the  :sdeek:  :eek:  :horrorsurprise: things the workers do on a daily basis. How the heck someone hasn't seriously injured themselves is beyond comprehension.
Are these workers being forced, against their will and with the threat of termination by their foremen/superintendents, to do these crazy things?

The exact opposite, at least the guys I work with are trying to keep them from doing these crazy things, it's more of a case of missing management rather than micromanagement. Granted they're trying to make brutal deadlines but that does not mean safety can be circumvented, the reputation of my company is built on safety records so any mishap can keep us from getting other jobs. It's more of a "when the cats away the mice will play" mentality that's the point trying to be proven. Can there be forced work in places? Sure, but really contractors (and more accurately the worker under them) are in the mentality of "getting the job done" not "getting the job done safely" or at least thinking it through. Hence the need for OSHA.
So what you're saying is that your company provides training for their employees and puts a heavy emphasis on working safety yet some employees continue to practice unsafe acts when not under immediate supervision?  OSHA is needed to ensure that those workers take it upon themselves, after being provided ample training and proper PPE, to practice safe work habits?  I just want to make sure I fully understand your argument here. 

Offline schreds21

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 1498
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #87 on: April 04, 2013, 07:53:41 PM »
Those who say that osha isn't needed don't know many contractors.

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 2

yeah.   and we won't even start discussing manufacturing or heavy industry.   the stuff I've seen, even WITH the threat of OSHA....
Don't know about manufacturing or heavy industry but they are out of control in commercial construction.

 :facepalm:
So are you saying that without OSHA in commercial construction, workers would be forced to work in unsafe conditions or risk losing their jobs?

yes.   There are a LOT of contractors that operate unsafe WITH OSHA.   There would be even more without that threat.

Bottom line is that OSHA costs money to employers.  You bet they would trim that cost at very least if not do what they can to fully eliminate it.
Of course there are a lot of contractors that operate unsafely.  Most of them are in the residential side (I'm talking construction here, as I said in an earlier post, I am not familiar with the industrial side).  OSHA has only started policing residential contractors in the last couple years.  This is because most residential guys are small and any fines levied against them would not be paid in full.  The company would just close up shop because they couldn't afford to pay the fine.   Any reputable commercial contractor has safety protocols in place.  It would cost them more in workman's comp and insurance premiums, as well as lost contract opportunities, than what any OSHA fine would be. 

Offline CNS

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 38095
  • I'm Athletes
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #88 on: April 04, 2013, 08:00:28 PM »
Those contractors closing up shop would be a good thing dumbass.  OSHA isn't out there to collect money.  The fines are punitive.  Meant to be punishment.  Punishment hurts.  Pay up or go out of biz.  That is exactly why they exist.  Get the shitty guys out of biz so that the industry as a whole is better. 

I don't know where the OSHA talking point has come from, but I have been working one kind of construction or another solidly for 20 yrs now and it certainly is a needed set of regulations. 

Offline cfbandyman

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 11098
  • To da 'ville.
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #89 on: April 04, 2013, 08:52:26 PM »
Those who say that osha isn't needed don't know many contractors.

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 2

 :lol:

Funny cause it's true.

Holy eff it is. I haven't been working long but the things the electricians I've worked with try to pull is unbelievable, and I'd say they're "better than most." My company has a contract with this company to build them some electrical equipment building (best way to describe it) and they're messing it up all sorts managerial-wise, but what's really crazy is the  :sdeek:  :eek:  :horrorsurprise: things the workers do on a daily basis. How the heck someone hasn't seriously injured themselves is beyond comprehension.
Are these workers being forced, against their will and with the threat of termination by their foremen/superintendents, to do these crazy things?

The exact opposite, at least the guys I work with are trying to keep them from doing these crazy things, it's more of a case of missing management rather than micromanagement. Granted they're trying to make brutal deadlines but that does not mean safety can be circumvented, the reputation of my company is built on safety records so any mishap can keep us from getting other jobs. It's more of a "when the cats away the mice will play" mentality that's the point trying to be proven. Can there be forced work in places? Sure, but really contractors (and more accurately the worker under them) are in the mentality of "getting the job done" not "getting the job done safely" or at least thinking it through. Hence the need for OSHA.
So what you're saying is that your company provides training for their employees and puts a heavy emphasis on working safety yet some employees continue to practice unsafe acts when not under immediate supervision?  OSHA is needed to ensure that those workers take it upon themselves, after being provided ample training and proper PPE, to practice safe work habits?  I just want to make sure I fully understand your argument here.

My company is overseeing the engineering of a subcontractors' construction, they are not my company's employees. I agree it's the responsibility of the subcontractor (as it is our company) to provide proper safety training and PPE to do the job correctly, but the subcontractor is failing to meet our standards and OSHA's standards of safety. It's general every company's and OSHA's policy to report any unsafe working conditions and make sure things are done in a safe manner.
To untangle your statement, even though I haven't been doing my job for a really long time, OSHA to me is the standard set of guidelines of safety in which every worker has the right to have while working and be able to go home safe every night. Without a general rule book (in addition to company policies)  there would be no way to define "safe" and "unsafe" working practices legally, or at least you need some sort of bureaucracy (OSHA) to oversee the proper administration of safe work practices.
Without such as bulwark with regular inspections it becomes easy to not follow the rules, and not following the rules put workers at risk at being hurt on the job, not a thing anyone wants to have happen to themselves. Not only that, having such a legal bulwark makes it easier for me, the engineer, to cite certain rules and regulations to wayward contractors about not being safe, and also what is to be expected at the job sites I, (as an extension of my company), oversee.
A&M Style: 1/19/13 Co-Champion of THE ED's College Basketball Challenge

The art of the deal with it poors

OG Elon hater


Offline cfbandyman

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 11098
  • To da 'ville.
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #90 on: April 04, 2013, 08:53:37 PM »
Also, this thread seems like it belongs in the Birther Pit
A&M Style: 1/19/13 Co-Champion of THE ED's College Basketball Challenge

The art of the deal with it poors

OG Elon hater


Offline Spracne

  • Point Plank'r
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *
  • Posts: 22880
  • Gentleman | Polymath | Renowned Lover
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #91 on: April 04, 2013, 09:27:06 PM »
I guess I don't understand... Do people think OSHA doesn't apply to non-union workers?
My winning smile and can-do attitude.

Offline CNS

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 38095
  • I'm Athletes
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #92 on: April 04, 2013, 09:31:20 PM »
I guess I don't understand... Do people think OSHA doesn't apply to non-union workers?

No, they just have a hard time keeping their Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) talking points separated enough to not get them tangled.

Offline cfbandyman

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 11098
  • To da 'ville.
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #93 on: April 04, 2013, 09:34:23 PM »
I guess I don't understand... Do people think OSHA doesn't apply to non-union workers?

No, they just have a hard time keeping their Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) talking points separated enough to not get them tangled.

This, (though I didn't help I fanned the flames)
A&M Style: 1/19/13 Co-Champion of THE ED's College Basketball Challenge

The art of the deal with it poors

OG Elon hater


Offline schreds21

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 1498
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #94 on: April 04, 2013, 10:26:04 PM »
I guess I don't understand... Do people think OSHA doesn't apply to non-union workers?

No, they just have a hard time keeping their Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) talking points separated enough to not get them tangled.
See the Overated Things thread which you, CNS, initiated the derailment of.

Offline schreds21

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 1498
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #95 on: April 04, 2013, 10:37:53 PM »
Those contractors closing up shop would be a good thing dumbass.  OSHA isn't out there to collect money.  The fines are punitive.  Meant to be punishment.  Punishment hurts.  Pay up or go out of biz.  That is exactly why they exist.  Get the shitty guys out of biz so that the industry as a whole is better. 

I don't know where the OSHA talking point has come from, but I have been working one kind of construction or another solidly for 20 yrs now and it certainly is a needed set of regulations.
Wrong Dumbass.  OSHA's federal funding has been cut significantly so that the majority of their funding DOES come from fines.  OSHA is out there to collect money or else they wouldn't come up with guidelines that their own inspectors can't even interpret.  They also wouldn't come up with regulations such as the multiemployer rule which allows them to fine two contractors for one infraction.  If they were here to get the shitty guys out of the biz, they would have been regulating residential contractors years ago.

Offline schreds21

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 1498
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #96 on: April 04, 2013, 10:44:01 PM »
Those who say that osha isn't needed don't know many contractors.

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 2

 :lol:

Funny cause it's true.

Holy eff it is. I haven't been working long but the things the electricians I've worked with try to pull is unbelievable, and I'd say they're "better than most." My company has a contract with this company to build them some electrical equipment building (best way to describe it) and they're messing it up all sorts managerial-wise, but what's really crazy is the  :sdeek:  :eek:  :horrorsurprise: things the workers do on a daily basis. How the heck someone hasn't seriously injured themselves is beyond comprehension.
Are these workers being forced, against their will and with the threat of termination by their foremen/superintendents, to do these crazy things?

The exact opposite, at least the guys I work with are trying to keep them from doing these crazy things, it's more of a case of missing management rather than micromanagement. Granted they're trying to make brutal deadlines but that does not mean safety can be circumvented, the reputation of my company is built on safety records so any mishap can keep us from getting other jobs. It's more of a "when the cats away the mice will play" mentality that's the point trying to be proven. Can there be forced work in places? Sure, but really contractors (and more accurately the worker under them) are in the mentality of "getting the job done" not "getting the job done safely" or at least thinking it through. Hence the need for OSHA.
So what you're saying is that your company provides training for their employees and puts a heavy emphasis on working safety yet some employees continue to practice unsafe acts when not under immediate supervision?  OSHA is needed to ensure that those workers take it upon themselves, after being provided ample training and proper PPE, to practice safe work habits?  I just want to make sure I fully understand your argument here.

My company is overseeing the engineering of a subcontractors' construction, they are not my company's employees. I agree it's the responsibility of the subcontractor (as it is our company) to provide proper safety training and PPE to do the job correctly, but the subcontractor is failing to meet our standards and OSHA's standards of safety. It's general every company's and OSHA's policy to report any unsafe working conditions and make sure things are done in a safe manner.
To untangle your statement, even though I haven't been doing my job for a really long time, OSHA to me is the standard set of guidelines of safety in which every worker has the right to have while working and be able to go home safe every night. Without a general rule book (in addition to company policies)  there would be no way to define "safe" and "unsafe" working practices legally, or at least you need some sort of bureaucracy (OSHA) to oversee the proper administration of safe work practices.
Without such as bulwark with regular inspections it becomes easy to not follow the rules, and not following the rules put workers at risk at being hurt on the job, not a thing anyone wants to have happen to themselves. Not only that, having such a legal bulwark makes it easier for me, the engineer, to cite certain rules and regulations to wayward contractors about not being safe, and also what is to be expected at the job sites I, (as an extension of my company), oversee.
So you are an engineer or are working for an engineering firm?

Offline Bloodfart

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 5663
  • I don't run out of gas.
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #97 on: April 04, 2013, 10:47:12 PM »
Thought this was going to be a gay marriage thread.

Yeah, i was like that thread is going to the pit so why bother looking. 

Offline EMAWmeister

  • PCKK7DC Survivor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *******
  • Posts: 8957
  • Livin' it up
    • View Profile
Re: Unions
« Reply #98 on: April 04, 2013, 11:25:49 PM »
The CEO of WalMart makes more in one hour than most of his employees make in a year. Thank god they crush unions that try to form in their stores.

The market dictates the value of his job. Everyone on earth would agree that the CEO of most companies makes too much. But as long as companies are having to pay those salaries to compete, you bet your ass they'll pay them.

Offline Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)

  • Racist Piece of Shit
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 18431
  • Kiss my ass and suck my dick
    • View Profile
    • I am the one and only Sugar Dick
Re: Unions
« Reply #99 on: April 04, 2013, 11:50:47 PM »
A union is a carefully crafted political action committee whereunder the democrat party steals money from the uneducated working class in order to push its agenda to expand and crush the working class, while simultaneously indoctrinating said uneducated working class worker through a mixture and positive reinforcement (e.g., you're welding worth $35 an hour with full benefits) and propaganda (e.g., if not for us "the man" would work you until you're dead then hire another).

Union members are also historically the source of racism and anti-immigration sentiment.
goEMAW Karmic BBS Shepherd