And it begins...

[catzacker]

I think our defense is going to be god-rough ridin'-awful next year.

Even oscar's worst teams are decent defensively.  I think.

Yeah, this year was his worst defense since S. Illinois.

Awful big 10 offense?

How can it be bad with a group built for defense?

Better big 12 offenses?

I dunno.

[MakeItRain]

I think our defense is going to be god-rough ridin'-awful next year.

Even oscar's worst teams are decent defensively.  I think.

Did he ever have a team at Illinois with out a good post defender, either man to man or with the ability to protect the rim from a help position? I ask because we don't have one on the roster as of now.

Angel and Cobbins will be the only returners from the conference all defense team, BTW.

[KanSt43]

Those that don't see Gip's value are lbbiq and should be ignored.

Yeah, pretty much.

Out of control, can't jump, no right hand, folds against ANY player with height, fouls constantly, not a great finisher, etc....

But I still like him, because he's strong, tough, and someone every team needs. Just not at Big 12 starter IMO. But I know nothing, so carry on.

Starts off poorly when you say that Gip is out of control.  His control has grown leaps and bounds. What, from God-awful to slightly terrible?   He has handles for a big. Maybe for the first dribble.... He can control the ball in the air, alter it, then put it back up off a miss and has done so this season well. Against who? Texas Tech? Texas? OSU? None of those teams have bigs.  He plays a very large amt of minutes for the type of body he has in a system that doesn't favor his build and weight and still does so without fouling out due to exhaustion Only averaged about 2.5 fouls per game, but did have 8 games with 4 fouls, and several games where he barely played in the first half due to foul trouble. You may have an argument there..    He isn't an enforcer like you may be indicating with your "strong, tough...." comment. He bangs. He can tire players. His body is built to take a beating.

[kso_FAN]

I think our defense is going to be god-rough ridin'-awful next year.

Even oscar's worst teams are decent defensively.  I think.

Yeah, this year was his worst defense since S. Illinois.

Awful big 10 offense?

How can it be bad with a group built for defense?

Better big 12 offenses?

I dunno.

I'd guess going to the smaller line-up. He and Lowrey are probably going to have to adjust their philosophy on defense a bit.

Bread, it looks like last year Illinois played small too, is this correct? And was that the first time oscar did that there? Thanks.

[michigancat]

I think our defense is going to be god-rough ridin'-awful next year.

Even oscar's worst teams are decent defensively.  I think.

look at the chingon chart thread. They weren't as good as they seemed (and this year wasn't quite as bad as it seemed.)

[Mr Bread]

I think our defense is going to be god-rough ridin'-awful next year.

Even oscar's worst teams are decent defensively.  I think.

Did he ever have a team at Illinois with out a good post defender, either man to man or with the ability to protect the rim from a help position? I ask because we don't have one on the roster as of now.

Angel and Cobbins will be the only returners from the conference all defense team, BTW.

No.  Every one of his Illinois teams had better frontcourt size and athleticism than next season's K-State team, not including Fincher as I don't know crap about him.  Individually Augustine (2003-2005) and Leonard (2011) were excellent at the five.  The respective combinations of Pruitt/Carter (2006), Pruitt/Randle (2007) and Tisdale/Davis (2008-2010) were also good.  Tall, less than mobile centers with springy, athletic help side fours. 

[Mr Bread]

I think our defense is going to be god-rough ridin'-awful next year.

Even oscar's worst teams are decent defensively.  I think.

Yeah, this year was his worst defense since S. Illinois.

Awful big 10 offense?

How can it be bad with a group built for defense?

Better big 12 offenses?

I dunno.

I'd guess going to the smaller line-up. He and Lowrey are probably going to have to adjust their philosophy on defense a bit.

Bread, it looks like last year Illinois played small too, is this correct? And was that the first time oscar did that there? Thanks.

To a certain extent yes.  He gave up on Tyler Griffey at the four and used Joe Bertrand in the Shane role (Bertrand is more athletic, but a poorer shooter particularly last year).  The difference is that he also had a 7-1, 230 lb lottery pick at center playing 32 mpg.  The collective outside shooting on that team was just too damn bad to go four out.  You put Leonard on this squad in place of Gip and oscar probably makes another NC game. 

The two worst win-loss seasons oscar had at Illinois were when he had a player at the 4 (Brian Randle/Calvin Brock in 2007-08 and Bertrand/Griffey in 2011-12) that couldn't shoot well.  Not coincidentally Calvin Brock was oscar's first foray at Illinois with the Shane role at the 4.  Brock was 6-5 and couldn't shoot for crap, but was a tremendous athlete. 

Other than the Brock and Bertrand scenarios, he stuck with a three guards/4/5 setup. 

[Mr Bread]

I think our defense is going to be god-rough ridin'-awful next year.

Even oscar's worst teams are decent defensively.  I think.

look at the chingon chart thread. They weren't as good as they seemed (and this year wasn't quite as bad as it seemed.)

You're not very good at reading his charts.  In every year other than the year he got fired (2011-12) the red dot is below the white line=better than conference average defense.  K-State's red dot for this season is below the white line, but touching it.  None of oscar's Illinois red dots that were below the white line touched and were therefore normatively better.  Just like I said, even his shitty Illinois teams had decent defense.  Served you right up.

[michigancat]

I think our defense is going to be god-rough ridin'-awful next year.

Even oscar's worst teams are decent defensively.  I think.

look at the chingon chart thread. They weren't as good as they seemed (and this year wasn't quite as bad as it seemed.)

You're not very good at reading his charts.  In every year other than the year he got fired (2011-12) the red dot is below the white line=better than conference average defense.  K-State's red dot for this season is below the white line, but touching it.  None of oscar's Illinois red dots that were below the white line touched and were therefore normatively better.  Just like I said, even his shitty Illinois teams had decent defense.  Served you right up.

yeah, I was misremembering. his offenses were what was surprisingly subpar, correct? I've been tapatalking so I could be wrong.

[Mr Bread]

I think our defense is going to be god-rough ridin'-awful next year.

Even oscar's worst teams are decent defensively.  I think.

look at the chingon chart thread. They weren't as good as they seemed (and this year wasn't quite as bad as it seemed.)

You're not very good at reading his charts.  In every year other than the year he got fired (2011-12) the red dot is below the white line=better than conference average defense.  K-State's red dot for this season is below the white line, but touching it.  None of oscar's Illinois red dots that were below the white line touched and were therefore normatively better.  Just like I said, even his shitty Illinois teams had decent defense.  Served you right up.

yeah, I was misremembering. his offenses were what was surprisingly subpar, correct? I've been tapatalking so I could be wrong.

Yeah, the offenses were often crap on the back end of his tenure. 

[CHONGS]

For reference:

[MakeItRain]

So he only had a below average defense once. Those offenses are tragic though, a hell of a lot worse than sub par.

[sys]

out of control is about the last thing that gipson is.


defensively, southie needs to get better.  all the other subpar defender have reasons for being subpar, he should be good.

[FuzzyWuzzy]

Do you guys remember all the stud bigs that frank recruited?   

CK and JO were pretty good. Without anyone bigger than Gipson or DJamer, the ceiling is losing to LaSalle in the first round of the tournament. UMKC would feel pretty good matching up with our bigs right now.

we didn't lose to lasalle because of our 4/5s or lack thereof.

I disagree. We did not take advantage of our size advantage at all in the first half. When we saw how much of a difference JO was making scoring we made an effort to keep him on the court and get him the ball. When we realized how easily it was for him to protect the rim we extended the defense to take away some of those bombs but opened up some driving lanes.

If we did this for 40 or even 30 minutes we win that game.

Diaz was a top 150 player. Seems like maybe we shouldn't have run him off the team.

JO senior year stats are very comparable to Jason Bennett freshman stats.  JO had better stamina and shot more frequently*; Bennett was a much better shot blocker.  Diaz showed very little improvement over two seasons.  I don't get why everyone is so rough ridin' sad about losing these guys.

if we have trouble finding more mediocre players to fill their shoes, that is cause for alarm...

*fix'd for sys!

[sys]

people should have been sad when bennett left too.  he was a game changer as a shot blocker.


but jhr was not similar to bennett statistically.  bennett's %shots was in the single digits, for god's sake.

[FuzzyWuzzy]

people should have been sad when bennett left too.  he was a game changer as a shot blocker.


but jhr was not similar to bennett statistically.  bennett's %shots was in the single digits, for god's sake.

so the difference in shot% between two guys averaging 2 and 5 ppg means they aren't at all similar?    i could also point out that bennett had much higher FTR and FT%....similar != identical. 

[Rage Against the McKee]

I don't think Bennett D'd on a single B during his tenure at Kansas State. They were not similar at all. JO was capable of taking over games, and it's not really his fault that Weber didn't use him properly during his senior year.

[MakeItRain]

Fuzzy Wuzzy you shouldn't have a problem posting stats to back this up, so do it. And yes Sys of course is correct that Bennett was a great rim protector.

[FuzzyWuzzy]

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=curtis-kelly&i=1&p1=jordan-henriguez-roberts&p2=darren-kent&p3=luis-colon&p4=jason-bennett

JO > Bennett by a slight to moderate amount in most areas.  In shot blocking, the only area either of them excelled in, they had the same bpg and Bennett did it in half as many possessions per game.

I threw Kent, Colon, and Kelly in there for fun.  They were all pretty similar, with Colon being the worst of the three.  There is some variety in how they scored, but their production was not all that different.

[FuzzyWuzzy]

I just think it's funny that everyone is freaking out about losing the 61st best shot-blocker in the country and a bench-warmer without a pulse.

[Rage Against the McKee]

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=curtis-kelly&i=1&p1=jordan-henriguez-roberts&p2=darren-kent&p3=luis-colon&p4=jason-bennett

JO > Bennett by a slight to moderate amount in most areas.  In shot blocking, the only area either of them excelled in, they had the same bpg and Bennett did it in half as many possessions per game.

I threw Kent, Colon, and Kelly in there for fun.  They were all pretty similar, with Colon being the worst of the three.  There is some variety in how they scored, but their production was not all that different.

The only stat that is adjusted for playing time is points per 40, where JO just demolishes Bennett, as expected. The discrepancy is even greater if you compare JR JO to Bennett.

[Rage Against the McKee]

I just think it's funny that everyone is freaking out about losing the 61st best shot-blocker in the country and a bench-warmer without a pulse.

9th best

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/stats/block_pct?season=2012-2013

[FuzzyWuzzy]

block % is a Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) way to compare players on different teams.  also, to adjust for minutes played between JO and Bennett, multiply Bennett by 1.5

[michigancat]

block % is a Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) way to compare players on different teams.  also, to adjust for minutes played between JO and Bennett, multiply Bennett by 1.5

wut

[Rage Against the McKee]

block % is a Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) way to compare players on different teams.  also, to adjust for minutes played between JO and Bennett, multiply Bennett by 1.5

No, it's the best way. Points per possession is also a much better way to compare players than points per minute. These stats are really pretty worthless when you consider they were collected under different coaches who played at different paces. If you want to compare raw numbers, you should at least go back to JO's JR year, when he wasn't quite as good as this year, but his numbers look better due to the extra minutes and faster pace.