Does God Exist?

[fun muffin]

I don't know how to ask this without sounding condescending, but I'd honestly like to ask how atheists think the universe was created.

We need a bigger super collider.

How do religious people think god was created?

http://carm.org/who-made-god-richard-dawkins

[fun muffin]

If God is all-knowing and all-powerful and intervenes in the affairs of earth sometimes, then he is a rough ridin' bad person for all of the horrible things he allows (causes?) to happen. I'm not sure that is debatable. If he never intervenes, maybe he is just a mildly disinterested bad person.

http://carm.org/why-do-bad-things-happen-good-people

[Dugout DickStone]

I don't know how to ask this without sounding condescending, but I'd honestly like to ask how atheists think the universe was created.

We need a bigger super collider.

How do religious people think god was created?

http://carm.org/who-made-god-richard-dawkins

Why does the author try to sound smart by repeating "ex nihilo" when he is basically saying " you have to just believe in God"

Can I post a link to the definition of circular reasoning now?

[420seriouscat69]

I think god found me to go to goEMAW! "WHAT NOW?"

[8manpick]

If God is all-knowing and all-powerful and intervenes in the affairs of earth sometimes, then he is a rough ridin' bad person for all of the horrible things he allows (causes?) to happen. I'm not sure that is debatable. If he never intervenes, maybe he is just a mildly disinterested bad person.

http://carm.org/why-do-bad-things-happen-good-people which says:

Why do bad things happen to good people?
by Matt Slick

There are two ways to look at this question. First of all, technically speaking there are no good people. The Bible says in Romans 3:12, “All have turned aside. Together they have become useless. There is none who does good. There is not even one.” The reason there are none who are good is because God alone is truly good. Luke 18:19 says, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.” God is the standard of righteousness, and all of us have fallen short of that standard (Rom. 3:23). Therefore, there really aren't any good people and bad things to happen to them.

On the other hand, from a human perspective there are decent people who are very nice. They are honest, don't lie, don't steal, and treat people very well. So, though they aren't perfect, they are trying to do what's right. So why would God allow bad things to happen to them? The easiest answer lies in the effect of sin. Sin is in the world and it affects everyone to different degrees. I once heard an illustration where someone said that when someone throws a grenade into a crowd, one person gets hit but another does not. That's how sin is. It affects people differently, some a lot and some a little.

Also, God can allow bad things to happen to good people in order to teach them lessons, to discipline them, to improve their character, to encourage  them to depend on him, etc.  We know from the Scriptures that nothing occurs without God's permission (Ephesians 1:11). We also know that God is good, so we must conclude that he allows bad things to occur because they are according to his sovereign plan and ultimately it will work out for good - especially for those who love him (Romans 8:28).

Also, think about this. If we want God to stop bad things happening to good people, where is the line to be drawn? How good must a person be in order to be saved from bad things?  Or, what level of bad do we want God to stop at?  What about a bad thing that can ultimately lead to a good thing, such as the crucifixion of Jesus?  Should such really bad things be stopped when they can lead to greater good?  Also, what would constitute something that's bad? What is bad to one person might not be bad for another. So, ultimately,the question becomes difficult to answer the more we look at it, so the best thing to do is trust that God allows things to happen to us for a reason.

This is just the worst kind of baseless tripe. I appreciate that you took the time to source an article but, my god you can't truly take that as your justification, can you? It essentially boils down to:

1. God works in mysterious ways
2. God does stuff that seems bad, but he is good so it must actually be good stuff.

What a joke.

[Panjandrum]

I don't know how to ask this without sounding condescending, but I'd honestly like to ask how atheists think the universe was created.

We need a bigger super collider.

How do religious people think god was created?

http://carm.org/who-made-god-richard-dawkins

Why does the author try to sound smart by repeating "ex nihilo" when he is basically saying " you have to just believe in God"

Can I post a link to the definition of circular reasoning now?

That was the first thing that came to mind.

That was a very long winded way of saying, "God isn't physical, so he isn't bound to the physical constraints of the universe."

Well, no crap.  And granting me the ability to believe in evolution because it exists after God's creation is mighty kind.  However, considering that I completely reject the premise of God to begin with, the whole house of cards starts to fall down.

[Dugout DickStone]

I could write an article that says "you just have to believe there is no god" as easily.  That is the worst writing I have seen.

[Panjandrum]

If God is all-knowing and all-powerful and intervenes in the affairs of earth sometimes, then he is a rough ridin' bad person for all of the horrible things he allows (causes?) to happen. I'm not sure that is debatable. If he never intervenes, maybe he is just a mildly disinterested bad person.

http://carm.org/why-do-bad-things-happen-good-people which says:

Why do bad things happen to good people?
by Matt Slick

There are two ways to look at this question. First of all, technically speaking there are no good people. The Bible says in Romans 3:12, “All have turned aside. Together they have become useless. There is none who does good. There is not even one.” The reason there are none who are good is because God alone is truly good. Luke 18:19 says, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.” God is the standard of righteousness, and all of us have fallen short of that standard (Rom. 3:23). Therefore, there really aren't any good people and bad things to happen to them.

On the other hand, from a human perspective there are decent people who are very nice. They are honest, don't lie, don't steal, and treat people very well. So, though they aren't perfect, they are trying to do what's right. So why would God allow bad things to happen to them? The easiest answer lies in the effect of sin. Sin is in the world and it affects everyone to different degrees. I once heard an illustration where someone said that when someone throws a grenade into a crowd, one person gets hit but another does not. That's how sin is. It affects people differently, some a lot and some a little.

Also, God can allow bad things to happen to good people in order to teach them lessons, to discipline them, to improve their character, to encourage  them to depend on him, etc.  We know from the Scriptures that nothing occurs without God's permission (Ephesians 1:11). We also know that God is good, so we must conclude that he allows bad things to occur because they are according to his sovereign plan and ultimately it will work out for good - especially for those who love him (Romans 8:28).

Also, think about this. If we want God to stop bad things happening to good people, where is the line to be drawn? How good must a person be in order to be saved from bad things?  Or, what level of bad do we want God to stop at?  What about a bad thing that can ultimately lead to a good thing, such as the crucifixion of Jesus?  Should such really bad things be stopped when they can lead to greater good?  Also, what would constitute something that's bad? What is bad to one person might not be bad for another. So, ultimately,the question becomes difficult to answer the more we look at it, so the best thing to do is trust that God allows things to happen to us for a reason.

This is just the worst kind of baseless tripe. I appreciate that you took the time to source an article but, my god you can't truly take that as your justification, can you? It essentially boils down to:

1. God works in mysterious ways
2. God does stuff that seems bad, but he is good so it must actually be good stuff.

What a joke.

George Carlin once said, "If this is the work of a supreme being, I am not impressed. It's more like an office temp with a bad attitude."

I'm paraphrasing, but the point is clear.  If bad things happen, it's because God is a prick or he is bad at his job.

[star seed 7]

since this is now a fun muffin Q&A, i've always wondered why jesus had to die "for our sins".  if god is all powerful, can't he just be like "bros, you guys are cleaned of sin now" and skip killing his son that is also himself?

eagerly awaiting the answer, it's something i've been stuck on for a while.

[fun muffin]

1. God works in mysterious ways
2. God does stuff that seems bad, but he is good so it must actually be good stuff.

What a joke.

I believe that God does work in mysterious ways.  If we knew everything about God then we wouldn't need him.  We would just rely upon ourselves.  The whole purpose of the Gospel is to do what humans cannot do which is defeat sin.  God wants us rely upon Him, not ourselves.

Look, I can't make you believe anything.  All I can do is lay out what I believe as clearly as possible.  You want like to hear this, but there is an element of faith involved.  And if you don't have that faith , well then I pray you will find it someday. 

I wouldn't have gone to all the trouble of finding these links if I didn't care.  Because I do care.  I want everyone to be at peace, happy, and in heaven.

[Domino]

Seems like they go with the "God gave man free will," line of thinking. Fine, though this means God cannot be all-knowing, which may seem blasphemous to some Christians (don't know how many)

Also Fun,

First off I don't believe that the Bible got anything wrong, and I do agree with Chicat that you can't fully understand God.

If you believe this, then why worship God? There's no way of knowing if God is just, or kind, or loving, until you die. So why spend your time worshiping a being whose motivations are unknown? Do you just take it all as a matter of faith?

I don't know how that means God is not all-knowing.  You'll have to explain that to me more. 

From the link you provided -

Adam had been given a Law to follow that in itself included the option to obey or disobey.   ...

Fourth, God didn't cause Adam to sin.  Adam freely chose, when presented with the fruit from his wife, to rebel against God.  Adam fell because he freely chose to disobey God, ...

Fifth, if someone doesn't like the idea that God knew they would be tempted and would fall, and therefore says it was wrong for God to let it happen, then what he would be requesting is that God not allow people to fall into sin, no matter what.  Think about it.  Freedom of choice means that temptations will occur.

If God did give mankind free will than God cannot know what decisions we make, until they are made. God got angry at Adam because he chose to "fall into sin," but that means God didn't know whether Adam would do so or not until the moment he did.

God cannot be all knowing if mankind has free will. If God is all knowing, then humans do not have free will.

I guess I don't know why you think that just because man has free will that God automatically can't know what we will do.  I believe we can have free will and that God can still know what we are about to do.  I believe God knows what we will do, but we have the freedom to do whatever.  Either seek God and obey Him, or not.

http://carm.org/questions/about-doctrine/if-god-all-knowing-and-he-knows-our-future-then-how-free-will  This link explains it really well.

I believe God knows what we will do, but we have the freedom to do whatever.

These two statements cannot coexist. How do I have freedom of choice if God knows what I'll choose? What you are telling me is that God has planned everyone's life, and just gives us the illusion of choice.

Why would God get angry at Adam? According to Christians, even before God created Adam, he knew what decision he would make when faced with the choice of eating the forbidden fruit. Why would he get angry at his own creation for doing what he designed it to do?

Example - Someone asks you if you want a shirt in size Small or Medium. You think about it for a second, and then say Small. According to you, God knew you would pick small before the choice was presented to you. That means there is no way you were ever going to pick Medium. The choice of shirt size existed, but the outcome was predetermined. The "choice" you were faced with was merely an illusion.

Taken further, this means every decision I've made when faced with a choice wasn't mine, rather it was the decision God made for me. How do I have free will if someone knows every decision I'll make in the future?

[Panjandrum]

1. God works in mysterious ways
2. God does stuff that seems bad, but he is good so it must actually be good stuff.

What a joke.

I believe that God does work in mysterious ways.  If we knew everything about God then we wouldn't need him.  We would just rely upon ourselves.  The whole purpose of the Gospel is to do what humans cannot do which is defeat sin.  God wants us rely upon Him, not ourselves.

Look, I can't make you believe anything.  All I can do is lay out what I believe as clearly as possible.  You want like to hear this, but there is an element of faith involved.  And if you don't have that faith , well then I pray you will find it someday. 

I wouldn't have gone to all the trouble of finding these links if I didn't care.  Because I do care.  I want everyone to be at peace, happy, and in heaven.

Well, it's awfully convenient that he stays so well hidden, then.

[fun muffin]

Just because God knows something, doesn't mean He made you do something.  There's a difference between knowing and doing.


Did you read the link?  I have a sneaking suspicion you didn't.

[Panjandrum]

Just because God knows something, doesn't mean He made you do something.  There's a difference between knowing and doing.


Did you read the link?  I have a sneaking suspicion you didn't.

With all due respect, the links are bullshit.  You need to bring better links.

[fun muffin]

1. God works in mysterious ways
2. God does stuff that seems bad, but he is good so it must actually be good stuff.

What a joke.

I believe that God does work in mysterious ways.  If we knew everything about God then we wouldn't need him.  We would just rely upon ourselves.  The whole purpose of the Gospel is to do what humans cannot do which is defeat sin.  God wants us rely upon Him, not ourselves.

Look, I can't make you believe anything.  All I can do is lay out what I believe as clearly as possible.  You want like to hear this, but there is an element of faith involved.  And if you don't have that faith , well then I pray you will find it someday. 

I wouldn't have gone to all the trouble of finding these links if I didn't care.  Because I do care.  I want everyone to be at peace, happy, and in heaven.

Well, it's awfully convenient that he stays so well hidden, then.

I don't think He's hidden at all.  Seek and you will find 8manpick, seek and you will find. 

Honestly it seems you just don't want to believe, which makes me sad.

[fun muffin]

Just because God knows something, doesn't mean He made you do something.  There's a difference between knowing and doing.


Did you read the link?  I have a sneaking suspicion you didn't.

With all due respect, the links are bullshit.  You need to bring better links.

There is nothing wrong with the links. 

[star seed 7]

The whole purpose of the Gospel is to do what humans cannot do which is defeat sin.  God wants us rely upon Him, not ourselves.

then why even invent sin in the first place?  he could have just made a bunch of perfect happy people that worship him.

[Panjandrum]

Just because God knows something, doesn't mean He made you do something.  There's a difference between knowing and doing.


Did you read the link?  I have a sneaking suspicion you didn't.

With all due respect, the links are bullshit.  You need to bring better links.

There is nothing wrong with the links.

Except that they are wordy exercises in circular logic full of holes.

[Stevesie60]

I'm not going to side with fun muffin on this one, but I will say that it appears to me that atheists are quick to dismiss worldwide objective morals (at least Richard Dawkins was) yet also say God lets bad things happen all the time.

[fun muffin]

Just because God knows something, doesn't mean He made you do something.  There's a difference between knowing and doing.


Did you read the link?  I have a sneaking suspicion you didn't.

With all due respect, the links are bullshit.  You need to bring better links.

There is nothing wrong with the links.

Except that they are wordy exercises in circular logic full of holes.

goEMAW is a wordy exercise in circular logic full of holes.     i'm just doing the best with what i got. 

[Stevesie60]

I don't know how to ask this without sounding condescending, but I'd honestly like to ask how atheists think the universe was created.

We need a bigger super collider.

How do religious people think god was created?

I gave an explanation for this like five posts before this, then answered it for someone else like, two posts after that. But this is proving my point that I made on page one that michigancat said I shouldn't make, that no one's mind is going to be changed because of this thread. Just like no conservative is going to change their mind when in an argument with a liberal, a K-State fan is in a argument with a KU fan, etc. In fact if you look at the research on arguments, people get so defenses about their own beliefs that arguments actually reaffirm them. Sad, isn't it (no matter the subject)? Everyone is so busy getting ready to make their next point that they're not even listening to what the other person is saying. The whole exercise is so futile, but we all feel the need to come post why WE'RE right.

[star seed 7]

I don't know how to ask this without sounding condescending, but I'd honestly like to ask how atheists think the universe was created.

We need a bigger super collider.

How do religious people think god was created?

I gave an explanation for this like five posts before this, then answered it for someone else like, two posts after that. But this is proving my point that I made on page one that michigancat said I shouldn't make, that no one's mind is going to be changed because of this thread. Just like no conservative is going to change their mind when in an argument with a liberal, a K-State fan is in a argument with a KU fan, etc. In fact if you look at the research on arguments, people get so defenses about their own beliefs that arguments actually reaffirm them. Sad, isn't it (no matter the subject)? Everyone is so busy getting ready to make their next point that they're not even listening to what the other person is saying. The whole exercise is so futile, but we all feel the need to come post why WE'RE right.

don't get mad just because nirvana is better than the pumpkins.

[Stevesie60]

I listened to Nevermind again today. Didn't hate it!

[star seed 7]

I listened to Nevermind again today. Didn't hate it!

in utero is my fav.

[michigancat]

I don't know how to ask this without sounding condescending, but I'd honestly like to ask how atheists think the universe was created.

We need a bigger super collider.

How do religious people think god was created?

I gave an explanation for this like five posts before this, then answered it for someone else like, two posts after that. But this is proving my point that I made on page one that michigancat said I shouldn't make, that no one's mind is going to be changed because of this thread. Just like no conservative is going to change their mind when in an argument with a liberal, a K-State fan is in a argument with a KU fan, etc. In fact if you look at the research on arguments, people get so defenses about their own beliefs that arguments actually reaffirm them. Sad, isn't it (no matter the subject)? Everyone is so busy getting ready to make their next point that they're not even listening to what the other person is saying. The whole exercise is so futile, but we all feel the need to come post why WE'RE right.

You're wrong. I was raised Catholic, and even went through RCIA during college and went to church after I graduated. I used to be pretty conservative, even opposed to things like gay marriage. Do you think I changed without reading debates on the subject or hearing opinions from other people?