FSD and Goldy get into serious discussion about something or whatever

[michigancat]

I think it is really difficult to try to engineer social change, that it is usually really incremental and that the past matters a lot.  I guess that makes me a liberal.

i don't think your final statement follows from your first statement at all.

it's easier to do harm than good?

I mean it would be pretty easy to eff over an ethnic group with legislation, but building them back up to equality is a little tricky.

[Kat Kid]

I think it is really difficult to try to engineer social change, that it is usually really incremental and that the past matters a lot.  I guess that makes me a liberal.

i don't think your final statement follows from your first statement at all.

it's easier to do harm than good?

I mean it would be pretty easy to eff over an ethnic group with legislation, but building them back up to equality is a little tricky.

I interpreted it as liberal vs. difficult to engineer social change.  I was using the dichotomy as a rhetorical device.  But I agree with what you said too.

[Goldbrick]

I think access to credit is an enormous issue and access to quality pre-k to college education is really important. 

Remove the words 'access to' and then you have something that is value that I'm getting at regarding the need to be rabidly instilled. People have access right now.

Some things are cultural, but they are less pernicious than you seem to make them. 

I think otherwise. I don't see us reconciling this point.

So I guess I'll finish by saying, I think it is really difficult to try to engineer social change,

Not really. You have to have an open discussion and it has to be pounded by media and entertainment. Gay marriage is an example of something that was unspeakable not long ago and after relentless attention from those avenues, is no longer so.

[sys]

it's easier to do harm than good?

I mean it would be pretty easy to eff over an ethnic group with legislation, but building them back up to equality is a little tricky.

I interpreted it as liberal vs. difficult to engineer social change.  I was using the dichotomy as a rhetorical device.  But I agree with what you said too.

i just meant that someone could agree with everything kk expressed and it would offer little insight into where that person fell on the conservative/liberal spectrum.

[Super PurpleCat]

Holy crap I missed this whole thread.   

[8manpick]

I think access to credit is an enormous issue and access to quality pre-k to college education is really important. 

Remove the words 'access to' and then you have something that is value that I'm getting at regarding the need to be rabidly instilled. People have access right now.

Some things are cultural, but they are less pernicious than you seem to make them. 

I think otherwise. I don't see us reconciling this point.

So I guess I'll finish by saying, I think it is really difficult to try to engineer social change,

Not really. You have to have an open discussion and it has to be pounded by media and entertainment. Gay marriage is an example of something that was unspeakable not long ago and after relentless attention from those avenues, is no longer so.

Curious because not ... Was gay marriage even discussed at all 20 years ago? 30?