Author Topic: FSD and Goldy get into serious discussion about something or whatever  (Read 10614 times)

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Offline sys

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Re: FSD and Goldy get into serious discussion about something or whatever
« Reply #50 on: March 31, 2013, 05:16:32 PM »
I don't think it does.  But we're still trying to establish facts and define terms.  Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

i only ask because goEMAW's oligarchical five hive attack any hint of racist or purportedly racist expression on this board, but think it's humorous to dismissively discuss the cultural habits of "poors".
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline michigancat

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he didn't just blame cultural inferiority. he said sometimes it's plain old laziness.

you don't think laziness is cultural?  what about industriousness?  i have a hard time imagining what you'd define it as, if not a cultural trait.

oh, I definitely think it can be a cultural trait.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: FSD and Goldy get into serious discussion about something or whatever
« Reply #52 on: March 31, 2013, 05:27:05 PM »
First, I never said"  You have said that racism is still the reason people are held back NOW. If its racism, asians should not be successful even NOW."

Since I'm mostly talking to myself at this point, I'll say that I think that history matters and context matters.  So comparing the history of African-Americans to the history of Asian-Americans is dumb.  They are almost completely different in every way imaginable.  And racism isn't some sort of acontextual evil from satan, it is also contextual.  So your repeated non-sequitor about how racism would impact Asian-Americans in precisely the same way that it would impact African-Americans is without merit and you don't even pretend to provide any reason for why that would be other than: "racism."  So I'd invite you to re-read my ample post on the great differences in context between African and Asian immigration and assimilation in the United States.

And since we both agree racism existed in the past, than can we acknowledge that it has some lingering effects?  You still haven't managed even say when you believe racism finally went away, which is pretty central to my entire point and you won't even acknowledge that I'm saying it.  Pretty frustrating.

In my first lengthy post I already said there was racism. It exists, it absolutely does. But its a small factor in life. Its not holding people back. That lingering effect is no longer a prime infliction on anybody.

You've created a far too simple explanation about racism that is not falsifiable and takes special privileges any where it begins to not make sense. So according to you, people are not only racist, they just suddenly exhibit a different kind of racism with asians than they do with others? wtf?

This is a 'just so' fantasy. You observe something and then force a vague idea of racism on it equipped with all the trappings of an inconsistent theory.

And you haven't responded to any of my videos nor the crime statistics, nor addressed what you think happens to somebody when told their entire lives that their fate is out of their hands. Gotta do real life crap but I'll be back later today.

When did racism stop being a problem?  I'm not talking about difficult to quantify, who knows what is inside people's hearts stuff.  I am talking about at what point did widespread institutional barriers to entry in things like housing, the workplace and school cease to exist for African-Americans in the United States?

I already addressed why Asians are different.  I am not talking about whether or not you or anybody else is biased or harbors racism in their heart.  I stuck to very easily defended factual statements about the context of entry for Asian American immigrants and the relevant laws that impacted their entry in to the US. 

This isn't some "vague" idea of racism.  Quite the contrary.  I've been pretty specific.  I went into some detail about the context of Asian-Americans.  I don't know if you are purposefully ignorant of what I'm saying or if this is part of your style of debate.  But I again, would really like to hear you explain when INSTITUTIONAL racism stopped being a problem.

I haven't responded to your videos or points about crime because you won't respond to my central question.

Offline Paul Moscow

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Re: FSD and Goldy get into serious discussion about something or whatever
« Reply #53 on: March 31, 2013, 05:32:49 PM »
Stop and frisk is about the clearest example of institutional racism and its occurring 50 years post-civil rights in the middle of the most liberal city in America.

Offline sys

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oh, I definitely think it can be a cultural trait.

so then, what was your point?
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Offline Domino

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Goldy you just stated you think blacks are culturally inferior to whites, and then tried to claim racism isn't a big deal today, and did so without detecting any irony in those positions. I'd also remind you that for centuries that train of thought was that blacks were genetically inferior to whites, used to justify slavery and later Jim Crow laws.

Goldy - how can blacks be treated fairly if you and numerous other whites think they are culturally inferior? How can a black person be treated fairly if they are automatically below whites from birth because of their "culture," ?

he didn't just blame cultural inferiority. he said sometimes it's plain old laziness.

But isn't he still claiming his view is:

[White people & their culture] > [Black people & their culture]

?

EDIT: Goldbrick can you clarify something for me - what is white culture in your opinion?

Hard to define a culture. Ask most people what white, black, asian culture is and they balk in the same way that people generally don't define porn, you know it when you see it. What we have to rely on are statistics and tendancies of those races and cultures.

But are you going to deny that blacks attempt to shame each other by calling them 'white' when they have financial success in business, speak eloquently, etc. Even Obama got this levied at him, that he was a white puppet or talking down to black people:

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2007/09/jesse-jackson-s/



Now the question here is - why would they do that? Is it because blacks are genetically and naturally worse than whites? From all the responses I've seen, no one is arguing that.

Maybe that happens because African-Americans are much more disproportionately to be born to families who live at or below the poverty line. Do you think that might be the main cause as to why blacks commit a higher rate of crime than other ethnicities?

Offline michigancat

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oh, I definitely think it can be a cultural trait.

so then, what was your point?


I was clarifying what Goldie said. He separated laziness from other cultural traits for some reason. The  just made him seem more racist to me.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: FSD and Goldy get into serious discussion about something or whatever
« Reply #57 on: March 31, 2013, 05:45:54 PM »
Stop and frisk is about the clearest example of institutional racism and its occurring 50 years post-civil rights in the middle of the most liberal city in America.

Pretty unfair to bring up something that far in the past Paul, let's let him define when racism stopped existing first.  I bet it was way after that relic of a previous racist era.

Offline Paul Moscow

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he didn't just blame cultural inferiority. he said sometimes it's plain old laziness.

you don't think laziness is cultural?  what about industriousness?  i have a hard time imagining what you'd define it as, if not a cultural trait.

oh, I definitely think it can be a cultural trait.

If we are defining "laziness" as an individual who is lacking in motivation then you have to look at the underlying factors that drive or inhibit motivation.

Things that undeniably inhibit motivation:
Poverty.

For these people what you perceive as "laziness" is an the expression, in part, of the hopelessness, depression, lack of opportunity, etc that are imbedded in individuals who grow up in poverty.

Offline michigancat

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he didn't just blame cultural inferiority. he said sometimes it's plain old laziness.

you don't think laziness is cultural?  what about industriousness?  i have a hard time imagining what you'd define it as, if not a cultural trait.

oh, I definitely think it can be a cultural trait.

If we are defining "laziness" as an individual who is lacking in motivation then you have to look at the underlying factors that drive or inhibit motivation.

Things that undeniably inhibit motivation:
Poverty.

For these people what you perceive as "laziness" is an the expression, in part, of the hopelessness, depression, lack of opportunity, etc that are imbedded in individuals who grow up in poverty.

I totally agree.

Offline Goldbrick

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Re: FSD and Goldy get into serious discussion about something or whatever
« Reply #60 on: March 31, 2013, 06:24:18 PM »
First, I never said"  You have said that racism is still the reason people are held back NOW. If its racism, asians should not be successful even NOW."

Since I'm mostly talking to myself at this point, I'll say that I think that history matters and context matters.  So comparing the history of African-Americans to the history of Asian-Americans is dumb.  They are almost completely different in every way imaginable.  And racism isn't some sort of acontextual evil from satan, it is also contextual.  So your repeated non-sequitor about how racism would impact Asian-Americans in precisely the same way that it would impact African-Americans is without merit and you don't even pretend to provide any reason for why that would be other than: "racism."  So I'd invite you to re-read my ample post on the great differences in context between African and Asian immigration and assimilation in the United States.

And since we both agree racism existed in the past, than can we acknowledge that it has some lingering effects?  You still haven't managed even say when you believe racism finally went away, which is pretty central to my entire point and you won't even acknowledge that I'm saying it.  Pretty frustrating.

In my first lengthy post I already said there was racism. It exists, it absolutely does. But its a small factor in life. Its not holding people back. That lingering effect is no longer a prime infliction on anybody.

You've created a far too simple explanation about racism that is not falsifiable and takes special privileges any where it begins to not make sense. So according to you, people are not only racist, they just suddenly exhibit a different kind of racism with asians than they do with others? wtf?

This is a 'just so' fantasy. You observe something and then force a vague idea of racism on it equipped with all the trappings of an inconsistent theory.

And you haven't responded to any of my videos nor the crime statistics, nor addressed what you think happens to somebody when told their entire lives that their fate is out of their hands. Gotta do real life crap but I'll be back later today.

When did racism stop being a problem?  I'm not talking about difficult to quantify, who knows what is inside people's hearts stuff.  I am talking about at what point did widespread institutional barriers to entry in things like housing, the workplace and school cease to exist for African-Americans in the United States?

I already addressed why Asians are different.  I am not talking about whether or not you or anybody else is biased or harbors racism in their heart.  I stuck to very easily defended factual statements about the context of entry for Asian American immigrants and the relevant laws that impacted their entry in to the US. 

This isn't some "vague" idea of racism.  Quite the contrary.  I've been pretty specific.  I went into some detail about the context of Asian-Americans.  I don't know if you are purposefully ignorant of what I'm saying or if this is part of your style of debate.  But I again, would really like to hear you explain when INSTITUTIONAL racism stopped being a problem.

I haven't responded to your videos or points about crime because you won't respond to my central question.

Entry is a problem where? The last few decades has been a slow dwindling of nation wide open racism and there will never be a single identifiable point with which to reference any more than there would be a point at which it started. You, so far, have not offered any goal or expectation as to when we should be seeing upward movement. Nothing about what you've put forth so far is even falsifiable because you haven't put forth a solution.

If you're going to blame poverty for all the problems in the black community than when does it get better? When does it even get the appearance of getting better? Doesn't poverty just continue endlessly here? Should we throw money at it?

You are doing exactly what leftists should be criticized for. You blame something external (usually white people) so as to absolve a group of any and all responsibility. You don't seem to even understand the fact that taking on guilt for something you aren't at fault for is a bad thing.

So let me hear your recipe about what should be done to help the black community. I've put forth a change in cultural to get rid of the detrimental aspects, you've put forth jack crap.

Offline Goldbrick

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Re: FSD and Goldy get into serious discussion about something or whatever
« Reply #61 on: March 31, 2013, 06:26:44 PM »
Stop and frisk is about the clearest example of institutional racism and its occurring 50 years post-civil rights in the middle of the most liberal city in America.

Its a touchy issue. But the crime statistics I linked to earlier illustrate why this has a rational basis to it and can easily be argued that its not racism, its basic logic.

Offline Goldbrick

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Now the question here is - why would they do that? Is it because blacks are genetically and naturally worse than whites? From all the responses I've seen, no one is arguing that.

Maybe that happens because African-Americans are much more disproportionately to be born to families who live at or below the poverty line. Do you think that might be the main cause as to why blacks commit a higher rate of crime than other ethnicities?

So consistent, long term poor behavior is excused because of poverty?

Maybe its detrimental aspects of their culture that are keeping them poor?

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: FSD and Goldy get into serious discussion about something or whatever
« Reply #63 on: March 31, 2013, 07:37:29 PM »
Quote
Entry is a problem where? The last few decades has been a slow dwindling of nation wide open racism and there will never be a single identifiable point with which to reference any more than there would be a point at which it started.

Great.  So we have "few decades" and "slow dwindling" it would appear with that you seem to acknowledge then that some lingering effect might remain that would influence people even as conditions improve.  Now, I think there are really clear examples of progress made in the areas of rights and protections for African-Americans.  The Voting Rights Act, The Civil Rights Act, Title I and their regulatory impacts on education and HUD were enormously successful in providing access to many of the institutions that whites have taken for granted.  Why is this important to note?  Those things happened in the 1960's!  Well, it is a well established sociological fact that things like educational attainment and income and positively correlated with that of your parents.  So at some point, this had an impact.  There are other markers of where the culture was like Loving v. Virginia but I'm more concerned with the readily available and easily agreeable institutional protections that were put in place to end the persistent and systemic discrimination that faced African-Americans in the previous 300 years of their existence in America.

Now, my parents were born in the 1940's and 1950's so literally 1 generation ago this discrimination was common place.  What affect might this have had? 

Well, to take just one example.  There exists a persistent historical gap in homeownership between whites and African-Americans.  A home is the biggest asset and the largest common vehicle through which to transfer wealth from one generation to another.  Now, the gap (the difference between African-American and White homeownership) was roughly the same in 1900 as it was in 2000, but both groups had tons more homes.  The gap widened in the post-war era to the 1970's as 1) African-Americans moved from the South to the upper midwest and Northeast and from rural to urban settings where homeownership rates are lower than in suburban and rural areas.  African-Americans have very low income to wealth ratios (meaning, even though their income is middle class, their balance books tend not to be, they are not accumulating wealth at anywhere near the same rate as their white counterparts).  Now I don't think there is a continuing racist conspiracy against African-Americans, but this crap matters.  When your grandparents die, you can expect to have assets that will be divided up amongst your kin even if they weren't particularly wealthy.  In the meantime, you had all the benefits that go along with homeownership and its accompanying positive correlations with solid life outcomes.

http://stateofworkingamerica.org/chart/swa-income-table-2-5-median-family-income/

http://www.nber.org/reporter/winter06/collins.html

Quote

You, so far, have not offered any goal or expectation as to when we should be seeing upward movement.
Nothing about what you've put forth so far is even falsifiable because you haven't put forth a solution.

I don't know what you mean by "upward movement" but hell yes black people are doing better than they were 30, 50, 100 years ago.  The recession has hurt them harder than almost anyone, but yeah they are doing better.  Educational attainment, income, hell even the incarceration rate has declined in the past 10 years among AA.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/03/01/1656251/african-american-incarceration-rates-drop-report-finds/?mobile=nc

Quote
If you're going to blame poverty for all the problems in the black community than when does it get better? When does it even get the appearance of getting better? Doesn't poverty just continue endlessly here? Should we throw money at it?

Poverty and inequality is absolutely a real and growing problem in the United States.  It is a really complicated problem, and there are a lot of proposals.  I really don't have a solution to it, but I don't think it is inevitable within the United States at the current level.  I think there are steps we could take to reduce it even if I'm not sure what the most effective steps would be.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_US_Gini_Coefficient_for_Household_Income_%281967_-_2007_%29.png

Quote
You are doing exactly what leftists should be criticized for. You blame something external (usually white people) so as to absolve a group of any and all responsibility. You don't seem to even understand the fact that taking on guilt for something you aren't at fault for is a bad thing.

I never said that people should be absolved of personal responsibility.  I definitely don't think a group should be blamed or absolved of blame.  I do think that there is ample evidence that people other than myself were responsible for some pretty awful actions not only on the individual level, but also using the power of the state to enforce discrimination.  I think that has a real effect (but is not the entire story).  I don't feel personally responsible for things I didn't do, but in an amorphous sense, I think there should be a collective acknowledgement of the historical facts and to that end I think it is important to remember the good parts of U.S. history, but also the bad parts.

Quote
So let me hear your recipe about what should be done to help the black community. I've put forth a change in cultural to get rid of the detrimental aspects, you've put forth jack crap.

Are you asking the state to bring cultural change to a select class of the population, or just for people to do that themselves.  I'm all for people changing for the better, so I'll sign on for that, but I'm not for the U.S. government leading a cultural revolution.  I, again, am going to be pretty cautious about suggesting a "fix" because, you know, the world is pretty complicated.  But I think poverty should be the focus, not race per se.

Offline michigancat

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Re: FSD and Goldy get into serious discussion about something or whatever
« Reply #64 on: March 31, 2013, 07:59:04 PM »
I thought this was very interesting:

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/

I think eliminating private schools would be an interesting approach to improve the poverty situation in America. But I don't think it would ever happen.

Offline Goldbrick

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Re: FSD and Goldy get into serious discussion about something or whatever
« Reply #65 on: March 31, 2013, 09:16:15 PM »
  African-Americans have very low income to wealth ratios (meaning, even though their income is middle class, their balance books tend not to be, they are not accumulating wealth at anywhere near the same rate as their white counterparts).  Now I don't think there is a continuing racist conspiracy against African-Americans, but this crap matters.  When your grandparents die, you can expect to have assets that will be divided up amongst your kin even if they weren't particularly wealthy.  In the meantime, you had all the benefits that go along with homeownership and its accompanying positive correlations with solid life outcomes.



This seems to be the crux of your first part of the argument here.

Yes, generational wealth will matter. And what also effects the amount of wealth you are accumulating? Decisions you make. Do you really think that previous generations' wealth provide nearly as much of a crutch as what you're saying? I'd say thats a small factor at best, the bigger factor still remaining that you will be in a similar upbringing to what made your previous generation successful in the first place, that is the midwestern, small town values alluded to earlier in this thread. And the 1960's was half a century ago.

I meant upward movement as in relational movement as compared to others. The incarceration rate looks promising although its still massive but I don't see the gains relationally.

Quote
Poverty and inequality is absolutely a real and growing problem in the United States.

Poverty is a problem. Haven't said otherwise. I've said that its those detrimental cultural traits that are keeping too many blacks in poverty. You seem to be attributing it all to a vicious cycle of 'they are poor so their kids are poor' on and on til infinity.

Quote
I never said that people should be absolved of personal responsibility.  I definitely don't think a group should be blamed or absolved of blame.  I do think that there is ample evidence that people other than myself were responsible for some pretty awful actions not only on the individual level, but also using the power of the state to enforce discrimination.  I think that has a real effect (but is not the entire story).  I don't feel personally responsible for things I didn't do, but in an amorphous sense, I think there should be a collective acknowledgement of the historical facts and to that end I think it is important to remember the good parts of U.S. history, but also the bad parts.

There is acknowledgement of bad parts of US history and then there is attributing something with an eternal baggage. That the country has a racist history is not in doubt, that its racism or a simple 'poverty begets poverty' explanation is, in my opinion, weak for an explanation. Its beyond those, its a question of identity and values. If you have poverty for a while and internalize the notion that you and your culture are 'poor' you'll forego the values/actions that are needed to get you out. Poor decision making. This is why I bring up the bullshit about doing well for yourself as a black man is 'acting white'.

I'm of the opinion that the state should largely stay out of social issues. People should handle this amongst themselves.

And I had a longer response here but I'm pretty butt frustrated about the fact that I hit post and had some sort of internal server failure and the back button didn't resurrect my crap.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2013, 09:34:24 PM by Goldbrick »

Offline Goldbrick

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Re: FSD and Goldy get into serious discussion about something or whatever
« Reply #66 on: March 31, 2013, 09:31:09 PM »
I thought this was very interesting:

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/

I think eliminating private schools would be an interesting approach to improve the poverty situation in America. But I don't think it would ever happen.

Teachers in Finland are required to obtain a three-year master's degree, state-funded, before teaching. These education positions are highly coveted, Sahlberg said. For example, only one in 10 primary-school teacher applicants are accepted.

"It's harder to get into primary school education than a medical program," he said.

Offline michigancat

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I thought this was very interesting:

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/

I think eliminating private schools would be an interesting approach to improve the poverty situation in America. But I don't think it would ever happen.

Teachers in Finland are required to obtain a three-year master's degree, state-funded, before teaching. These education positions are highly coveted, Sahlberg said. For example, only one in 10 primary-school teacher applicants are accepted.

"It's harder to get into primary school education than a medical program," he said.


SOCIALISM!!!

Offline Goldbrick

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I thought this was very interesting:

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/

I think eliminating private schools would be an interesting approach to improve the poverty situation in America. But I don't think it would ever happen.

Teachers in Finland are required to obtain a three-year master's degree, state-funded, before teaching. These education positions are highly coveted, Sahlberg said. For example, only one in 10 primary-school teacher applicants are accepted.

"It's harder to get into primary school education than a medical program," he said.


SOCIALISM!!!

I think if the most educated, critically selected members of our society were also our teachers we'd be in a good situation no matter what type of system we were running.

Good luck with the teacher's unions.

Offline michigancat

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I thought this was very interesting:

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/

I think eliminating private schools would be an interesting approach to improve the poverty situation in America. But I don't think it would ever happen.

Teachers in Finland are required to obtain a three-year master's degree, state-funded, before teaching. These education positions are highly coveted, Sahlberg said. For example, only one in 10 primary-school teacher applicants are accepted.

"It's harder to get into primary school education than a medical program," he said.


SOCIALISM!!!

I think if the most educated, critically selected members of our society were also our teachers we'd be in a good situation no matter what type of system we were running.

Good luck with the teacher's unions.

ha ha, you're such a freaking loon

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: FSD and Goldy get into serious discussion about something or whatever
« Reply #70 on: March 31, 2013, 09:56:25 PM »
I guess I'm not even really sure what you are asserting is the acute problem any more.  My mission was to get you to acknowledge that poverty and historical, institutional racism are real problems.  So I guess at this point I'm not sure what else there is to say from either side.

We don't really have to guess at a lot of this stuff.  I mean I'm not going to write a dissertation on it, but there are people that have.  People have quantified the likelihood of all kinds of life outcomes based upon your parents.  This is hard data.  I don't think it is "culture of poverty to infinity" but I do think that it is important.  I think access to credit is an enormous issue and access to quality pre-k to college education is really important. 

Some things are cultural, but they are less pernicious than you seem to make them.  For instance, I was just reading the other day a blog post by Matt Yglesias that smart kids from poverty tend to attend schools with lower academic reputations than their rich peers.  Now normally this would seem like common sense, but ivy schools have multi-BILLION dollar endowments.  They provide merit and need based scholarships all the time.  So in reality, we have another example where even for the kids best situated to make it out of the cycle of poverty, they are not wise to how the college admissions process really works and thus probably are not maximizing their access to the most elite circles.  This is stuff at the margins, I don't think it is a smoking gun.  But it is a symptom of the struggle for access by even poor kids doing what they should be doing.

I guess I do just think that a lot of things are out of the control of people.  I look at my own family and see how divorce and abuse made it extremely difficult for the children of those marriages to excel.  On the whole, the most stable families that stayed together produced wealth for themselves and much better outcomes for their kids.  I think absolutely that marriage before kids, not getting divorced, getting an education, saving, using family planning etc. all pretty "conservative" values are really important.  But those aren't 1) easily transferable to kids when the parents didn't follow through 2) just because they are positively correlated with good outcomes doesn't mean they can really be separated from the "culture" or individual that makes those calls

So I guess I'll finish by saying, I think it is really difficult to try to engineer social change, that it is usually really incremental and that the past matters a lot.  I guess that makes me a liberal.

Offline Goldbrick

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ha ha, you're such a freaking loon

Loon seems tame compared to racist.

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Re: FSD and Goldy get into serious discussion about something or whatever
« Reply #72 on: March 31, 2013, 10:09:53 PM »
I think it is really difficult to try to engineer social change, that it is usually really incremental and that the past matters a lot.  I guess that makes me a liberal.

i don't think your final statement follows from your first statement at all.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline 06wildcat

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Re: FSD and Goldy get into serious discussion about something or whatever
« Reply #73 on: March 31, 2013, 10:10:41 PM »
holy crap, Joe Montgomery is so proud right now guys

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: FSD and Goldy get into serious discussion about something or whatever
« Reply #74 on: March 31, 2013, 10:11:42 PM »
I think it is really difficult to try to engineer social change, that it is usually really incremental and that the past matters a lot.  I guess that makes me a liberal.

i don't think your final statement follows from your first statement at all.

 ;)