FSD and Goldy get into serious discussion about something or whatever

[Goldbrick]

Goldy you just stated you think blacks are culturally inferior to whites, and then tried to claim racism isn't a big deal today, and did so without detecting any irony in those positions. I'd also remind you that for centuries that train of thought was that blacks were genetically inferior to whites, used to justify slavery and later Jim Crow laws.

Goldy - how can blacks be treated fairly if you and numerous other whites think they are culturally inferior? How can a black person be treated fairly if they are automatically below whites from birth because of their "culture," ?

he didn't just blame cultural inferiority. he said sometimes it's plain old laziness.

But isn't he still claiming his view is:

[White people & their culture] > [Black people & their culture]

?

EDIT: Goldbrick can you clarify something for me - what is white culture in your opinion?

Hard to define a culture. Ask most people what white, black, asian culture is and they balk in the same way that people generally don't define porn, you know it when you see it. What we have to rely on are statistics and tendancies of those races and cultures.

But are you going to deny that blacks attempt to shame each other by calling them 'white' when they have financial success in business, speak eloquently, etc. Even Obama got this levied at him, that he was a white puppet or talking down to black people:

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2007/09/jesse-jackson-s/

[Goldbrick]

At what point in time do people start deserving an equal opportunity?  Do we start it today?  Yesterday?  Since Obama was elected? 

Because 60 years ago black people were basically unable to live a middle class lifestyle and acquire common assets such as a house or insurance.  No one is suggesting that your grandparents give black people their house, but can we acknowledge that as a privilege you inherited and didn't earn?

Everyone has an adequate opportunity for success already. It will never be 'equal' in the sense that everyone has the same starting point. But the resources are all there for use, the threat of failure is a question of willpower at the moment, not racism.

Privileges I have in my raising come from a decent small town atmosphere typical of what you might find in a midwest small town. Am I supposed to feel bad about that? Or am I supposed to suggest that more towns, even urban ones, be like that so as to help insure more people of those privileges?

[michigancat]

Privileges I have in my raising come from a decent small town atmosphere typical of what you might find in a midwest small town. Am I supposed to feel bad about that? Or am I supposed to suggest that more towns, even urban ones, be like that so as to help insure more people of those privileges?

you could at least acknowledge that it's a big rough ridin' advantage. I think even a big time racist like you should be able to manage that.

[Goldbrick]

Goldbrick do you think black people are naturally more inclined to violence then whites?

Do you think that, in a perfectly equal society, blacks will murder, rape, steal, and so on at a greater rate then whites?

If your answer is no, then perhaps you should be looking at other factors that lead people to a life of crime, and not think one of the reasons is because they are black.

Black people, or any other people, are biologically not different enough from any other human beings for it to be an issue. If you're suggesting that I think blacks are stupid by nature, you're wrong.

But that doesn't mean we turn a blind eye to aspects of a culture, that a group of people have taken on, that are detrimental to them. That includes white people as much as it does others. But its blind to pretend that all actions, beliefs, etc will lead to equal results.

[Goldbrick]

Privileges I have in my raising come from a decent small town atmosphere typical of what you might find in a midwest small town. Am I supposed to feel bad about that? Or am I supposed to suggest that more towns, even urban ones, be like that so as to help insure more people of those privileges?

you could at least acknowledge that it's a big rough ridin' advantage. I think even a big time racist like you should be able to manage that.

I did. Which is why its an idea worth spreading. And I'm being accused of racism by people like you, for attempting to do so.

[michigancat]

Privileges I have in my raising come from a decent small town atmosphere typical of what you might find in a midwest small town. Am I supposed to feel bad about that? Or am I supposed to suggest that more towns, even urban ones, be like that so as to help insure more people of those privileges?

you could at least acknowledge that it's a big rough ridin' advantage. I think even a big time racist like you should be able to manage that.

I did. Which is why its an idea worth spreading. And I'm being accused of racism by people like you, for attempting to do so.

no, I accused you of being racist because you said black people are poor because they are lazy. 

[Goldbrick]

Privileges I have in my raising come from a decent small town atmosphere typical of what you might find in a midwest small town. Am I supposed to feel bad about that? Or am I supposed to suggest that more towns, even urban ones, be like that so as to help insure more people of those privileges?

you could at least acknowledge that it's a big rough ridin' advantage. I think even a big time racist like you should be able to manage that.

I did. Which is why its an idea worth spreading. And I'm being accused of racism by people like you, for attempting to do so.

no, I accused you of being racist because you said black people are poor because they are lazy.

I said that was one factor amongst the several I listed. That also applies to quite a bit of white people as well. The laziness I'm referring to has more to do with an unwillingness to change what is keeping them down. And inconveniently being told by white people, that they are powerless til whites shed their racism and oppression.

[Kat Kid]

At what point in time do people start deserving an equal opportunity?  Do we start it today?  Yesterday?  Since Obama was elected? 

Because 60 years ago black people were basically unable to live a middle class lifestyle and acquire common assets such as a house or insurance.  No one is suggesting that your grandparents give black people their house, but can we acknowledge that as a privilege you inherited and didn't earn?

Everyone has an adequate opportunity for success already. It will never be 'equal' in the sense that everyone has the same starting point. But the resources are all there for use, the threat of failure is a question of willpower at the moment, not racism.

Privileges I have in my raising come from a decent small town atmosphere typical of what you might find in a midwest small town. Am I supposed to feel bad about that? Or am I supposed to suggest that more towns, even urban ones, be like that so as to help insure more people of those privileges?

You did not answer my question and I think it matters.  When did "everyone" begin having "an adequate opportunity for success already?"  Because I think we both agree that at some point in the past there was inequality, and maybe now there is some too, but now "everyone" has "an adequate opportunity for success already."  At what point did that become reality?

[Kat Kid]

Privileges I have in my raising come from a decent small town atmosphere typical of what you might find in a midwest small town. Am I supposed to feel bad about that? Or am I supposed to suggest that more towns, even urban ones, be like that so as to help insure more people of those privileges?

you could at least acknowledge that it's a big rough ridin' advantage. I think even a big time racist like you should be able to manage that.

I did. Which is why its an idea worth spreading. And I'm being accused of racism by people like you, for attempting to do so.

no, I accused you of being racist because you said black people are poor because they are lazy.

I said that was one factor amongst the several I listed. That also applies to quite a bit of white people as well. The laziness I'm referring to has more to do with an unwillingness to change what is keeping them down. And inconveniently being told by white people, that they are powerless til whites shed their racism and oppression.

Everyone is capable of doing anything they want without anyone's help?  That is some of the most idiotic crap I've ever heard.

[Goldbrick]

At what point in time do people start deserving an equal opportunity?  Do we start it today?  Yesterday?  Since Obama was elected? 

Because 60 years ago black people were basically unable to live a middle class lifestyle and acquire common assets such as a house or insurance.  No one is suggesting that your grandparents give black people their house, but can we acknowledge that as a privilege you inherited and didn't earn?

Everyone has an adequate opportunity for success already. It will never be 'equal' in the sense that everyone has the same starting point. But the resources are all there for use, the threat of failure is a question of willpower at the moment, not racism.

Privileges I have in my raising come from a decent small town atmosphere typical of what you might find in a midwest small town. Am I supposed to feel bad about that? Or am I supposed to suggest that more towns, even urban ones, be like that so as to help insure more people of those privileges?

You did not answer my question and I think it matters.  When did "everyone" begin having "an adequate opportunity for success already?"  Because I think we both agree that at some point in the past there was inequality, and maybe now there is some too, but now "everyone" has "an adequate opportunity for success already."  At what point did that become reality?

Racism isn't nearly as prevalent now in the populace than it was once. I see no solid indicators that people today are largely being held back by a system or institution or racism. You can blame those, but you haven't presented one single piece of evidence to me yet. Also, if it were racism, can you explain the elephant in the room, asians?

Why are asian statistics so different from blacks? If racism is so widespread, why did it overlook them?

[Goldbrick]

Everyone is capable of doing anything they want without anyone's help?  That is some of the most idiotic crap I've ever heard.

So you believe that where you end up in life is external, I think its largely internal.

This is exactly what I mean about the dis-empowering rhetoric unleashed on people.

Can you imagine being bathed in nothing but rhetoric from your birth to adulthood that says: "Its not your fault, its society's fault. Its not your responsibility, its the governments. It's not you, it's them."

Its a license to not try. Do you ever wonder why as the country moves more leftward, things are getting worse for everybody?

[ChiComCat]

Its not the current racism that is the biggest issue.  It is generations of racism contributing to societal and cultural issues.  Asians largely immigrated post-WWII and had less disadvantages to deal with as a result.

But go on believing every racial stereotype ever.

Also, congrats on having rich parents.  I'm sure that has nothing to do with previous generations.

[michigancat]

Also, congrats on having rich parents.  I'm sure that has nothing to do with previous generations.

Every generation was made of self-made men!

[Goldbrick]

Its not the current racism that is the biggest issue.  It is generations of racism contributing to societal and cultural issues.  Asians largely immigrated post-WWII and had less disadvantages to deal with as a result.

But go on believing every racial stereotype ever.

Also, congrats on having rich parents.  I'm sure that has nothing to do with previous generations.

I don't have rich parents. And you do nothing more than prove my point, that we can't talk about racial issues without racial mudslinging. No one has responded to the videos or statistics I've posted.

So I'll at least repost this and have you tell me what his message was, and why you think he felt the need to say it:



Rusty, what stands in the way of urban areas taking on a small, midwest town mindset? You yourself already admitted it was better and that was my privilege to have grown up in it. An admission that its a better environment.

[Kat Kid]

At what point in time do people start deserving an equal opportunity?  Do we start it today?  Yesterday?  Since Obama was elected? 

Because 60 years ago black people were basically unable to live a middle class lifestyle and acquire common assets such as a house or insurance.  No one is suggesting that your grandparents give black people their house, but can we acknowledge that as a privilege you inherited and didn't earn?

Everyone has an adequate opportunity for success already. It will never be 'equal' in the sense that everyone has the same starting point. But the resources are all there for use, the threat of failure is a question of willpower at the moment, not racism.

Privileges I have in my raising come from a decent small town atmosphere typical of what you might find in a midwest small town. Am I supposed to feel bad about that? Or am I supposed to suggest that more towns, even urban ones, be like that so as to help insure more people of those privileges?

You did not answer my question and I think it matters.  When did "everyone" begin having "an adequate opportunity for success already?"  Because I think we both agree that at some point in the past there was inequality, and maybe now there is some too, but now "everyone" has "an adequate opportunity for success already."  At what point did that become reality?

Racism isn't nearly as prevalent now in the populace than it was once. I see no solid indicators that people today are largely being held back by a system or institution or racism. You can blame those, but you haven't presented one single piece of evidence to me yet. Also, if it were racism, can you explain the elephant in the room, asians?

Why are asian statistics so different from blacks? If racism is so widespread, why did it overlook them?

At what point did "everyone" have "an adequate opportunity for success already?"  When did racism of the past, stop being an impediment?  "It is less prevalent now than it was once."  When did the decline start?  Was it evenly distributed?  When did it cease being a significant problem?

As far as "the Asian exception" well it is pretty much just that:

Sourcing from here and wikipedia

http://www.migrationinformation.org/usfocus/display.cfm?ID=841#12

Also via wikipedia (checked most sources through census)
according to the 2010 census about 6% of the U.S. population is Asian
There is a long history of just simply excluding Asians from even being eligible for immigration
From 2000-2010 the Asian-American population became the fastest growing group

So at the height of white racism 1880-1940's Asians were pretty much excluded from entering the U.S. and stayed in their home countries of the six biggest countries of origin:

1) China 2) The Phillipines 3) India 4) Japan 5) Korea 6) Vietnam

A significant number of immigrants from these countries were educated professionals in their country of origin and entered the U.S. during an economic boom time when the general culture of the United States promoted their inclusion and welcomed their arrival.  I'll let you compare that to patterns of African-American immigration to the United States on your own time.

[Goldbrick]

At what point in time do people start deserving an equal opportunity?  Do we start it today?  Yesterday?  Since Obama was elected? 

Because 60 years ago black people were basically unable to live a middle class lifestyle and acquire common assets such as a house or insurance.  No one is suggesting that your grandparents give black people their house, but can we acknowledge that as a privilege you inherited and didn't earn?

Everyone has an adequate opportunity for success already. It will never be 'equal' in the sense that everyone has the same starting point. But the resources are all there for use, the threat of failure is a question of willpower at the moment, not racism.

Privileges I have in my raising come from a decent small town atmosphere typical of what you might find in a midwest small town. Am I supposed to feel bad about that? Or am I supposed to suggest that more towns, even urban ones, be like that so as to help insure more people of those privileges?

You did not answer my question and I think it matters.  When did "everyone" begin having "an adequate opportunity for success already?"  Because I think we both agree that at some point in the past there was inequality, and maybe now there is some too, but now "everyone" has "an adequate opportunity for success already."  At what point did that become reality?

Racism isn't nearly as prevalent now in the populace than it was once. I see no solid indicators that people today are largely being held back by a system or institution or racism. You can blame those, but you haven't presented one single piece of evidence to me yet. Also, if it were racism, can you explain the elephant in the room, asians?

Why are asian statistics so different from blacks? If racism is so widespread, why did it overlook them?

At what point did "everyone" have "an adequate opportunity for success already?"  When did racism of the past, stop being an impediment?  "It is less prevalent now than it was once."  When did the decline start?  Was it evenly distributed?  When did it cease being a significant problem?

As far as "the Asian exception" well it is pretty much just that:

Sourcing from here and wikipedia

http://www.migrationinformation.org/usfocus/display.cfm?ID=841#12

Also via wikipedia (checked most sources through census)
according to the 2010 census about 6% of the U.S. population is Asian
There is a long history of just simply excluding Asians from even being eligible for immigration
From 2000-2010 the Asian-American population became the fastest growing group

So at the height of white racism 1880-1940's Asians were pretty much excluded from entering the U.S. and stayed in their home countries of the six biggest countries of origin:

1) China 2) The Phillipines 3) India 4) Japan 5) Korea 6) Vietnam

A significant number of immigrants from these countries were educated professionals in their country of origin and entered the U.S. during an economic boom time when the general culture of the United States promoted their inclusion and welcomed their arrival.  I'll let you compare that to patterns of African-American immigration to the United States on your own time.

Again, I didn't say racism didn't exist in the past. You have said that racism is still the reason people are held back NOW. If its racism, asians should not be successful even NOW.

Referrencing the past is a non-issue. I want to know why one culture/race is exceeding while another is not moving.

[Kat Kid]

Everyone is capable of doing anything they want without anyone's help?  That is some of the most idiotic crap I've ever heard.

So you believe that where you end up in life is external, I think its largely internal.

This is exactly what I mean about the dis-empowering rhetoric unleashed on people.

Can you imagine being bathed in nothing but rhetoric from your birth to adulthood that says: "Its not your fault, its society's fault. Its not your responsibility, its the governments. It's not you, it's them."

Its a license to not try. Do you ever wonder why as the country moves more leftward, things are getting worse for everybody?

All this little refugee camp needs is a little empowerment!  Who should we bring in for our empowerment conference?  Joel Olsteen?  Maybe a little churchy.  How about Tony Robbins?  Is he still big?  Maybe we can get Clarence Thomas or Herman Cain in there to tell their tales of boot strap raising, lest a white speaker be accused of being racist.

[Goldbrick]

Dude, we're talking about the US. Never have I spoken to the matters of other countries. I'd readily agree that there are large, systemic issues outside the US, but the notion that your fate is external in the US is laughable.

[sys]

he didn't just blame cultural inferiority. he said sometimes it's plain old laziness.

you don't think laziness is cultural?  what about industriousness?  i have a hard time imagining what you'd define it as, if not a cultural trait.

[sys]

You did not answer my question and I think it matters.  When did "everyone" begin having "an adequate opportunity for success already?"  Because I think we both agree that at some point in the past there was inequality, and maybe now there is some too, but now "everyone" has "an adequate opportunity for success already."  At what point did that become reality?

there has always been inequality (material and of opportunity) amongst people, and there will always be inequality.  why is this more problematic when correlated with race or some other tribal identifier than when uncorrelated?

[star seed 7]

MODS, thanks for moving this.  I felt kind of bad about junking up the pictures with serious discussion thread.

[Kat Kid]

First, I never said"  You have said that racism is still the reason people are held back NOW. If its racism, asians should not be successful even NOW."

Since I'm mostly talking to myself at this point, I'll say that I think that history matters and context matters.  So comparing the history of African-Americans to the history of Asian-Americans is dumb.  They are almost completely different in every way imaginable.  And racism isn't some sort of acontextual evil from satan, it is also contextual.  So your repeated non-sequitor about how racism would impact Asian-Americans in precisely the same way that it would impact African-Americans is without merit and you don't even pretend to provide any reason for why that would be other than: "racism."  So I'd invite you to re-read my ample post on the great differences in context between African and Asian immigration and assimilation in the United States.

And since we both agree racism existed in the past, than can we acknowledge that it has some lingering effects?  You still haven't managed even say when you believe racism finally went away, which is pretty central to my entire point and you won't even acknowledge that I'm saying it.  Pretty frustrating.

[ChiComCat]

Its not the current racism that is the biggest issue.  It is generations of racism contributing to societal and cultural issues.  Asians largely immigrated post-WWII and had less disadvantages to deal with as a result.

But go on believing every racial stereotype ever.

Also, congrats on having rich parents.  I'm sure that has nothing to do with previous generations.

I don't have rich parents.

Your parents are rough ridin' lazy

[Kat Kid]

You did not answer my question and I think it matters.  When did "everyone" begin having "an adequate opportunity for success already?"  Because I think we both agree that at some point in the past there was inequality, and maybe now there is some too, but now "everyone" has "an adequate opportunity for success already."  At what point did that become reality?

there has always been inequality (material and of opportunity) amongst people, and there will always be inequality.  why is this more problematic when correlated with race or some other tribal identifier than when uncorrelated?

I don't think it does.  But we're still trying to establish facts and define terms.  Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

[Goldbrick]

First, I never said"  You have said that racism is still the reason people are held back NOW. If its racism, asians should not be successful even NOW."

Since I'm mostly talking to myself at this point, I'll say that I think that history matters and context matters.  So comparing the history of African-Americans to the history of Asian-Americans is dumb.  They are almost completely different in every way imaginable.  And racism isn't some sort of acontextual evil from satan, it is also contextual.  So your repeated non-sequitor about how racism would impact Asian-Americans in precisely the same way that it would impact African-Americans is without merit and you don't even pretend to provide any reason for why that would be other than: "racism."  So I'd invite you to re-read my ample post on the great differences in context between African and Asian immigration and assimilation in the United States.

And since we both agree racism existed in the past, than can we acknowledge that it has some lingering effects?  You still haven't managed even say when you believe racism finally went away, which is pretty central to my entire point and you won't even acknowledge that I'm saying it.  Pretty frustrating.

In my first lengthy post I already said there was racism. It exists, it absolutely does. But its a small factor in life. Its not holding people back. That lingering effect is no longer a prime infliction on anybody.

You've created a far too simple explanation about racism that is not falsifiable and takes special privileges any where it begins to not make sense. So according to you, people are not only racist, they just suddenly exhibit a different kind of racism with asians than they do with others? wtf?

This is a 'just so' fantasy. You observe something and then force a vague idea of racism on it equipped with all the trappings of an inconsistent theory.

And you haven't responded to any of my videos nor the crime statistics, nor addressed what you think happens to somebody when told their entire lives that their fate is out of their hands. Gotta do real life crap but I'll be back later today.