The last time oscar was in his first year with a new team

[GCJayhawker]

i don't think i typed that, but if i did, i'm sure you can point out where and when i did.

I was being a bit facetious.  My point was that have pointed out oscar Weber recruited talent to Illinois and you also have said that he is a good strategy coach. So why did he get fired at Illinois? Either he couldn't coach the talent he had effectively or the recruiting rankings on players he signed were off and those players were not as talented as the class ranking made it seem.  Which is is?

It's not an either/or propsition! I'm assuming that people understand that logic isn't so binary  His problems at Illinois were initially he tried recruiting the way he felt was best but the fanbase and local media blasted him for it because the prevailing thought was "this is Illinois we produce way to much talent and you took over a roster with way too much highly ranked talent for you to be bringing in players like Chester Frazier" so he buckled and didn't trust what had worked for him as a coach up to that point, which was to recruit the best players he could get who fit with his coaching philosophy so he then started just star hunting. Getting the highest rated players he could and hoping/thinking he could turn them into the players he needed. Prime example, recruiting several high ranked wings and thinking he could turn a coule into point guards instead of just recruiting a good solid point gaurd, like say Frazier or Meacham who may not be as highly sought after but would fill the need and become a good player as an upperclassman. Coincidently something he seems to be avoiding repeating already at KSU.

Obviously it is not an either/or proposition.  I was just curious as to what more the problem seemed to be.  From what I gleem from your post is that top tier players generally don't fit well into oscar's system so he has to recruit not as high quality guys.  Once he does that he can mold those not as talented guys into a formidable team that will consistently win.  Got ya

[pissclams]

gc, how would you compare oscar's recruiting to frank's ?

[GCJayhawker]

gc, how would you compare oscar's recruiting to frank's ?

Without having really researched and compared their classes I am going to rely on information you have provided.  I would say that oscar recruited higher level talent overall to Illinois than Frank did, but I would say Frank's players performed much better over their careers.  Obviously, this is not a blanket statement, but does seem to be the overall trend.  I'm not really sure what it means that Frank's players had better careers than Weber's.  Does this mean the big ten is harder to compete in? Does it mean Frank is a better player developer than oscar? I don't know the answers.

[Mr Bread]

i don't think i typed that, but if i did, i'm sure you can point out where and when i did.

I was being a bit facetious.  My point was that have pointed out oscar Weber recruited talent to Illinois and you also have said that he is a good strategy coach. So why did he get fired at Illinois? Either he couldn't coach the talent he had effectively or the recruiting rankings on players he signed were off and those players were not as talented as the class ranking made it seem.  Which is is?

It's not an either/or propsition! I'm assuming that people understand that logic isn't so binary  His problems at Illinois were initially he tried recruiting the way he felt was best but the fanbase and local media blasted him for it because the prevailing thought was "this is Illinois we produce way to much talent and you took over a roster with way too much highly ranked talent for you to be bringing in players like Chester Frazier" so he buckled and didn't trust what had worked for him as a coach up to that point, which was to recruit the best players he could get who fit with his coaching philosophy so he then started just star hunting. Getting the highest rated players he could and hoping/thinking he could turn them into the players he needed. Prime example, recruiting several high ranked wings and thinking he could turn a coule into point guards instead of just recruiting a good solid point gaurd, like say Frazier or Meacham who may not be as highly sought after but would fill the need and become a good player as an upperclassman. Coincidently something he seems to be avoiding repeating already at KSU.

Obviously it is not an either/or proposition.  I was just curious as to what more the problem seemed to be.  From what I gleem from your post is that top tier players generally don't fit well into oscar's system so he has to recruit not as high quality guys.  Once he does that he can mold those not as talented guys into a formidable team that will consistently win.  Got ya

That's not what he said dumbass. 

[pissclams]

gc, how would you compare oscar's recruiting to frank's ?

Without having really researched and compared their classes I am going to rely on information you have provided.  I would say that oscar recruited higher level talent overall to Illinois than Frank did, but I would say Frank's players performed much better over their careers.  Obviously, this is not a blanket statement, but does seem to be the overall trend.  I'm not really sure what it means that Frank's players had better careers than Weber's.  Does this mean the big ten is harder to compete in? Does it mean Frank is a better player developer than oscar? I don't know the answers.

oscar won the conference w/ frank's players, something frank never did.  who is the better developer of talent? 

[GCJayhawker]

gc, how would you compare oscar's recruiting to frank's ?

Without having really researched and compared their classes I am going to rely on information you have provided.  I would say that oscar recruited higher level talent overall to Illinois than Frank did, but I would say Frank's players performed much better over their careers.  Obviously, this is not a blanket statement, but does seem to be the overall trend.  I'm not really sure what it means that Frank's players had better careers than Weber's.  Does this mean the big ten is harder to compete in? Does it mean Frank is a better player developer than oscar? I don't know the answers.

oscar won the conference w/ frank's players, something frank never did.  who is the better developer of talent?

If you look at this year it would appear oscar is, but if you look at the previous years it is not as easy of an answer.

[pissclams]

i'm looking at frank's entire body of work.  there's a clear cut answer there.

[OregonSmock]

gc, how would you compare oscar's recruiting to frank's ?

Without having really researched and compared their classes I am going to rely on information you have provided.  I would say that oscar recruited higher level talent overall to Illinois than Frank did, but I would say Frank's players performed much better over their careers.  Obviously, this is not a blanket statement, but does seem to be the overall trend.  I'm not really sure what it means that Frank's players had better careers than Weber's.  Does this mean the big ten is harder to compete in? Does it mean Frank is a better player developer than oscar? I don't know the answers.

oscar won the conference w/ frank's players, something frank never did.  who is the better developer of talent?

You remind me of Illinois fans circa 2005.  Then Self won a national title in '08, and Weber was fired a few years later.

[pissclams]

the only reason why self went to the national championship game in the first place was because he saw his mentor oscar weber do it at illinois (something bill was incapable of doing during his stint in champaign).

once again, bill finds solace hiding in oscar's shadow.  weird guy = bill self. 

[phoenix]

So Weber had no faults at Illinois? He was just the unfortunate victim of some hideous circumstances that in no way are related to any shortcomings as a coach?  Is that what you are saying?

There were several things that happened.  But most of it boils down to a portion of the fan base that wanted 2005 every year.  The social media affected the teams.  Some of the e-mails, texts, twitters, got really bad for them.  The local beat writer did his share to build the hype and that aided the ones that wanted new coaches.    Chester's junior year some hated him so bad they boo'd him at games.  If you ever wonder what happened talk to him.  He was there.

Last years team, including coaches were under a terrific pressure and had been for a couple of years.  It finally got to them.  The AD was changed and he first fired the football coach the day after the last game.  That loaded the pressure on BBall team and coaches big time.  The Nebraska game was the breaking point.  They all knew the coaches were gone, and the team felt it was their fault.  Sure enough the day after the last game, Coach Weber was let go.  There were and still are many Illini fans that believe in Coach Weber and follow him. 

There are some Illini fans that will fill you with some straight up hate for both fball and bball coaches.  They are over the top and have a tendency to go overboard.

The Illini AD had to go through several coaches before he was able to hire the current coach.  The season has had some ups and some downs. 

This is the comment that Coach Weber said in one of the last articles and it says it all:

"He was expected to recruit a certain kind of player there, and usually from Chicago. Weber — openly self-analytical — says he got away from his own coaching beliefs. He means that both in things like discipline and substitution patterns, and with bigger-picture stuff like putting together recruiting classes."

You got to know that if Deron Williams (Who has always said that if it was not for Coach Weber he would not be the player he is. and calls Weber regularly to talk about basketball.) and Myers Leonard believe in Coach Weber, you should too.  Even Self has said that Weber did things for the Illini 2005 team that he could not have.  That Webers motion was made for that team. 

There will be a lot to come and KSU is going to be in good hands

Illini fan

[pissclams]

phoenix just making it rain in here!

[420seriouscat69]

Sometimes I wonder if oscar was bad at Illinois, just because he hated them. Sorry, Bread.

[pissclams]

it's a fair question, they treated him like crap (unlike here)

[Mr Bread]

Sometimes I wonder if oscar was bad at Illinois, just because he hated them. Sorry, Bread.

No need to drag me into this troll fest.  Stick with beems and his new minions is what I always say. 

[Mr Bread]

phoenix just making it rain in here!

He is quite obviously the jalapeno mustard of Illini bbs'ers. 

[Mr Bread]

it's a fair question, they treated him like crap (unlike here)

Huh, looks like you got demoted.  Weird how that happened.  Probably should watch it. 

[420seriouscat69]

Sometimes I wonder if oscar was bad at Illinois, just because he hated them. Sorry, Bread.

No need to drag me into this troll fest.  Stick with beems and his new minions is what I always say.

Touche.

[GCJayhawker]

i'm looking at frank's entire body of work.  there's a clear cut answer there.

the problem with this is you don't take into account any developing this years KSU players did under Martin.  You just say that oscar came in and developed these guys to a point they could win a conference championship, and none of them winning that championship this year is due to anything Frank did with them.  Again, I don't know what the answer is, but it seems like it is too early to tell.

[GCJayhawker]

So Weber had no faults at Illinois? He was just the unfortunate victim of some hideous circumstances that in no way are related to any shortcomings as a coach?  Is that what you are saying?

There were several things that happened.  But most of it boils down to a portion of the fan base that wanted 2005 every year.  The social media affected the teams.  Some of the e-mails, texts, twitters, got really bad for them.  The local beat writer did his share to build the hype and that aided the ones that wanted new coaches.    Chester's junior year some hated him so bad they boo'd him at games.  If you ever wonder what happened talk to him.  He was there.

Last years team, including coaches were under a terrific pressure and had been for a couple of years.  It finally got to them.  The AD was changed and he first fired the football coach the day after the last game.  That loaded the pressure on BBall team and coaches big time.  The Nebraska game was the breaking point.  They all knew the coaches were gone, and the team felt it was their fault.  Sure enough the day after the last game, Coach Weber was let go.  There were and still are many Illini fans that believe in Coach Weber and follow him. 

There are some Illini fans that will fill you with some straight up hate for both fball and bball coaches.  They are over the top and have a tendency to go overboard.

The Illini AD had to go through several coaches before he was able to hire the current coach.  The season has had some ups and some downs. 

This is the comment that Coach Weber said in one of the last articles and it says it all:

"He was expected to recruit a certain kind of player there, and usually from Chicago. Weber — openly self-analytical — says he got away from his own coaching beliefs. He means that both in things like discipline and substitution patterns, and with bigger-picture stuff like putting together recruiting classes."

You got to know that if Deron Williams (Who has always said that if it was not for Coach Weber he would not be the player he is. and calls Weber regularly to talk about basketball.) and Myers Leonard believe in Coach Weber, you should too.  Even Self has said that Weber did things for the Illini 2005 team that he could not have.  That Webers motion was made for that team. 

There will be a lot to come and KSU is going to be in good hands

Illini fan

So essentially oscar fell into the pressure of outside influences in who he should recruit, instead of showing some backbone and sticking with players he knew he could win with in his system.  Got ya 

[OregonSmock]

So Weber had no faults at Illinois? He was just the unfortunate victim of some hideous circumstances that in no way are related to any shortcomings as a coach?  Is that what you are saying?

There were several things that happened.  But most of it boils down to a portion of the fan base that wanted 2005 every year.  The social media affected the teams.  Some of the e-mails, texts, twitters, got really bad for them.  The local beat writer did his share to build the hype and that aided the ones that wanted new coaches.    Chester's junior year some hated him so bad they boo'd him at games.  If you ever wonder what happened talk to him.  He was there.

Last years team, including coaches were under a terrific pressure and had been for a couple of years.  It finally got to them.  The AD was changed and he first fired the football coach the day after the last game.  That loaded the pressure on BBall team and coaches big time.  The Nebraska game was the breaking point.  They all knew the coaches were gone, and the team felt it was their fault.  Sure enough the day after the last game, Coach Weber was let go.  There were and still are many Illini fans that believe in Coach Weber and follow him. 

There are some Illini fans that will fill you with some straight up hate for both fball and bball coaches.  They are over the top and have a tendency to go overboard.

The Illini AD had to go through several coaches before he was able to hire the current coach.  The season has had some ups and some downs. 

This is the comment that Coach Weber said in one of the last articles and it says it all:

"He was expected to recruit a certain kind of player there, and usually from Chicago. Weber — openly self-analytical — says he got away from his own coaching beliefs. He means that both in things like discipline and substitution patterns, and with bigger-picture stuff like putting together recruiting classes."

You got to know that if Deron Williams (Who has always said that if it was not for Coach Weber he would not be the player he is. and calls Weber regularly to talk about basketball.) and Myers Leonard believe in Coach Weber, you should too.  Even Self has said that Weber did things for the Illini 2005 team that he could not have.  That Webers motion was made for that team. 

There will be a lot to come and KSU is going to be in good hands

Illini fan

So essentially oscar fell into the pressure of outside influences in who he should recruit, instead of showing some backbone and sticking with players he knew he could win with in his system.  Got ya 

In summary, just blame everyone but oscar for oscar's failures at Illinois. 

[quietstorm5]

So Weber had no faults at Illinois? He was just the unfortunate victim of some hideous circumstances that in no way are related to any shortcomings as a coach?  Is that what you are saying?

There were several things that happened.  But most of it boils down to a portion of the fan base that wanted 2005 every year.  The social media affected the teams.  Some of the e-mails, texts, twitters, got really bad for them.  The local beat writer did his share to build the hype and that aided the ones that wanted new coaches.    Chester's junior year some hated him so bad they boo'd him at games.  If you ever wonder what happened talk to him.  He was there.

Last years team, including coaches were under a terrific pressure and had been for a couple of years.  It finally got to them.  The AD was changed and he first fired the football coach the day after the last game.  That loaded the pressure on BBall team and coaches big time.  The Nebraska game was the breaking point.  They all knew the coaches were gone, and the team felt it was their fault.  Sure enough the day after the last game, Coach Weber was let go.  There were and still are many Illini fans that believe in Coach Weber and follow him. 

There are some Illini fans that will fill you with some straight up hate for both fball and bball coaches.  They are over the top and have a tendency to go overboard.

The Illini AD had to go through several coaches before he was able to hire the current coach.  The season has had some ups and some downs. 

This is the comment that Coach Weber said in one of the last articles and it says it all:

"He was expected to recruit a certain kind of player there, and usually from Chicago. Weber — openly self-analytical — says he got away from his own coaching beliefs. He means that both in things like discipline and substitution patterns, and with bigger-picture stuff like putting together recruiting classes."

You got to know that if Deron Williams (Who has always said that if it was not for Coach Weber he would not be the player he is. and calls Weber regularly to talk about basketball.) and Myers Leonard believe in Coach Weber, you should too.  Even Self has said that Weber did things for the Illini 2005 team that he could not have.  That Webers motion was made for that team. 

There will be a lot to come and KSU is going to be in good hands

Illini fan

So essentially oscar fell into the pressure of outside influences in who he should recruit, instead of showing some backbone and sticking with players he knew he could win with in his system.  Got ya 

In summary, just blame everyone but oscar for oscar's failures at Illinois.

Someone seems to really fear the oscar! 

[cork_sniffer]

do you really mean to tell me you're claiming townsend doesn't have a shady past and hasn't been paying players for years?

I'm not claiming that.  I was referring to your claim he paid Sherron, no proof of that happening.  Before you ask, yes I have read your long post about the history of bill Self's cheating and in there there is no proof other than your speculation about Sherron.

ya i guess you're right.  i don't have a picture of the scumbag handing sherron a bag of cash.

it makes complete sense that when bill self was looking for an assistant it was townsend's impeccable employment history that made him so attractive.

All I am saying is that all of this with Sherron is purely speculative.  Nothing wrong with having suspicions, but to try and pass them off as fact when there is no evidence is pretty petty and disingenuous in my mind.

the oscar/sherron/aau crap is speculative.  the idea that oscar was unable to recruit local talent is wrong. in 2011 he signed a class ranked 11th nationally, including 4 top 100's, all from the chicago area.

there's no disputing kurt townsend's history and there's nothing petty or disingenuous about acknowledging it.

actually it's well known and documented and you just proved my point: weber didn't have a decent class with players from chicago until 2011.  he still lost all the best players pretty much during his time there. 

[Mr Bread]

it's a fair question, they treated him like crap (unlike here)

Huh, looks like you got demoted.  Weird how that happened.  Probably should watch it.

[quietstorm5]

do you really mean to tell me you're claiming townsend doesn't have a shady past and hasn't been paying players for years?

I'm not claiming that.  I was referring to your claim he paid Sherron, no proof of that happening.  Before you ask, yes I have read your long post about the history of bill Self's cheating and in there there is no proof other than your speculation about Sherron.

ya i guess you're right.  i don't have a picture of the scumbag handing sherron a bag of cash.

it makes complete sense that when bill self was looking for an assistant it was townsend's impeccable employment history that made him so attractive.

All I am saying is that all of this with Sherron is purely speculative.  Nothing wrong with having suspicions, but to try and pass them off as fact when there is no evidence is pretty petty and disingenuous in my mind.

the oscar/sherron/aau crap is speculative.  the idea that oscar was unable to recruit local talent is wrong. in 2011 he signed a class ranked 11th nationally, including 4 top 100's, all from the chicago area.

there's no disputing kurt townsend's history and there's nothing petty or disingenuous about acknowledging it.

actually it's well known and documented and you just proved my point: weber didn't have a decent class with players from chicago until 2011.  he still lost all the best players pretty much during his time there.

What in the world are you talking about? Do you have any idea who and from where he got recruits from in 2009 and onward? He may have not gotten the right players but he had back to back to back top 25 recruiting classes with almost all of the players being from Illinois. and of the 2009, 2010 and 2011 classes all except 2 of those Illinois recruits were from the Chicago area. Unless you somehow are only counting CPL kids as "Chicago players" if that's your definition of getting local players then he never got any and no Illini coach since Henson's hey day has gotten many of those!

[yosh]

 

truth about oscar Weber:
1. If given a good roster, he can win championships at the high major level
2. He can build a championship mid major team
3. He has yet to build a high major team capable of winning championship

He'll either get #3 figured out, or he won't, but I don't really buy into the "Forrest Gump" theory that he's a Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!), bumbling about and falling assbackward into fame and fortune.  I mean, if you win 5 conference championships at 3 different schools in 15 years as a coach, you're probably doing something right.  History says he'll probably have some disasterous seasons in the future, but by the same token, I don't think he's won his last title.  Just hope it's more of the latter at KSU