How good would we be if oscar knew how to utilize JO???

[ksupamplemousse]

He hasn't been anything in Big XII play is the problem. It's like playing 4 on 5 while he is out there. He's good for a 1 or 2 buckets every 15-20 minutes, but he's also good for 1-2 illegal screens (TO) and 1-2 17 foot jumpers (as good as a turnover). On the defensive end he doesn't get beat really, but the guy is like 6'5 1/2" so when he is standing there like a statue with his hands straight up, they just shoot the ball over him for easy buckets. Also, you're right about Shane playing most of the minutes at the four, but I think it would be nice to try and get JO and Gipson out there together when Shane is taking a breather. Would it really destroy our offensive rhythm to go big for 10 minutes a game? Because I think it would disrupt the other team's offensive flow, much more than it would disrupt ours.

The thought of JO/Gip being relied on to do what Shane is able to do at the 4 (and what that allows the other players to do) for any significant stretch of time in oscar's offense isn't a pretty picture IMO.

And IMHO you are undervaluing Nino's impact, just look at his per 100 stats. His points per 100 in Big 12 play is solid. He's 3rd behind JO and Gip in Oboarding. He's our 4th best big (counting Shane) in Dboarding. He's 2nd to Shane among bigs in steals. Those per 100 stats don't lie, and Nino has played nearly 1/3 of the Big 12 possessions, which is significant enough to give solid stats (I don't really factor DJamer or Diaz in the per 100 strongly b/c neither has played 1/4 of the possessions).

I don't think JO or Gip should be asked to do what Shane does. A good coach should be able to adapt the offense to the players on the court, and the players on the court should be the ones with the most talent. It wouldn't kill us to run a variant of our current offense when we have to go big, which we will have to at some point this season, probably a few time out of necessity even though oscar won't want to. I think it's asinine to not use a potentially more talented lineup during 10 minutes of the ballgame, because oscar won't (for whatever reason) make any tweaks to the offense.

[kso_FAN]

I imagine oscar would not agree with you that its a more talented line up.

[ksupamplemousse]

I imagine oscar would not agree with you that its a more talented line up.

You seriously don't think that oscar would rank JO above Nino in the talent department?

[catzacker]

He hasn't been anything in Big XII play is the problem. It's like playing 4 on 5 while he is out there. He's good for a 1 or 2 buckets every 15-20 minutes, but he's also good for 1-2 illegal screens (TO) and 1-2 17 foot jumpers (as good as a turnover). On the defensive end he doesn't get beat really, but the guy is like 6'5 1/2" so when he is standing there like a statue with his hands straight up, they just shoot the ball over him for easy buckets. Also, you're right about Shane playing most of the minutes at the four, but I think it would be nice to try and get JO and Gipson out there together when Shane is taking a breather. Would it really destroy our offensive rhythm to go big for 10 minutes a game? Because I think it would disrupt the other team's offensive flow, much more than it would disrupt ours.

The thought of JO/Gip being relied on to do what Shane is able to do at the 4 (and what that allows the other players to do) for any significant stretch of time in oscar's offense isn't a pretty picture IMO.

I think the issue/thought is when jo/gip are in you wouldn’t have them do what shane is doing and saying “hey, they can’t do what shane can do” while “correct” is not using their abilities it’s dismissing them.  So, like, you CAN have them in at the same time but you’d have to figure out an offense that doesn’t have JO and Gip running around screens.  You’d, like, have to adjust if you wanted to use them correctly.  I suppose you can’t really argue with oscar’s “success” in not using JO how god intended especially since JO won’t be here for much longer (and gip will) and Shane and Nino have been good.

I don’t know how to use JO any differently than what Frank did, seemed perfect on both sides of the ball for what Frank wanted, imo.  Which is, like, probably why Frank recruited him and oscar wouldn’t have.

[kso_FAN]

I think the issue/thought is when jo/gip are in you wouldn’t have them do what shane is doing and saying “hey, they can’t do what shane can do” while “correct” is not using their abilities it’s dismissing them.  So, like, you CAN have them in at the same time but you’d have to figure out an offense that doesn’t have JO and Gip running around screens.  You’d, like, have to adjust if you wanted to use them correctly.  I suppose you can’t really argue with oscar’s “success” in not using JO how god intended especially since JO won’t be here for much longer (and gip will) and Shane and Nino have been good.

I don’t know how to use JO any differently than what Frank did, seemed perfect on both sides of the ball for what Frank wanted, imo.  Which is, like, probably why Frank recruited him and oscar wouldn’t have.

I agree with all that.

[wazucat]

Just would like to see the JO from the end of last season, altering/blocking opponent shots and DOB.  MIR alluded to his role being changed by oscar in his system many weeks ago.  Just miss the flashes of dominance displayed a year ago.

[MakeItRain]

Just would like to see the JO from the end of last season, altering/blocking opponent shots and DOB.  MIR alluded to his role being changed by oscar in his system many weeks ago.  Just miss the flashes of dominance displayed a year ago.

I don't think his role is changed, I just don't think it fits his strengths as well.  That being said I've noticed that we are letting him screen and roll a lot more than he did in the non-con, he gets to face up. I got real tired of watching him with his back to the basket throwing up a crappy hook shot.

[Belvis Noland]

For starters, we're 16-4 and the offense has looked damn good. 

If this team was polled, I imagine every player not named JO would say their offensive output has increased under this offense.  I'll let the stat guys decide whether the stats support this.  I've got to believe it does. 

Now, comparing JO to last year..  He was about the same player under Frank.  12-13:  15mpg, 4.9ppg, 4.6rpg, 53%FG, 30%FT.  11-12:  20mpg, 7.6ppg, 5.8rpg, 54%FG, 55%FT. 

Now, what's really crazy is that JO and his 4.9rpg ranks squarely behind Rod, Angel, Will, and Shane.  He's also behind Gip and Nino.  Basically, he's dwindling down there with Irving. 

JO wants more minutes?  Do your job.  get some boards.  block some shots.  stop fouling people.  and shoot better than 30% from the FT.     

[8manpick]

For starters, we're 16-4 and the offense has looked damn good. 

If this team was polled, I imagine every player not named JO would say their offensive output has increased under this offense.  I'll let the stat guys decide whether the stats support this.  I've got to believe it does. 

Now, comparing JO to last year..  He was about the same player under Frank.  12-13:  15mpg, 4.9ppg, 4.6rpg, 53%FG, 30%FT.  11-12:  20mpg, 7.6ppg, 5.8rpg, 54%FG, 55%FT. 

Now, what's really crazy is that JO and his 4.9rpg ranks squarely behind Rod, Angel, Will, and Shane.  He's also behind Gip and Nino.  Basically, he's dwindling down there with Irving. 

JO wants more minutes?  Do your job.  get some boards.  block some shots.  stop fouling people.  and shoot better than 30% from the FT.     

Speaking of stats, you do know that JO is getting more rebounds and blocks per 100 possessions than anyone else, right?  Far more during Big 12 play.  I mean, jfc.

Also shooting 50% on free throws since NYE.

[MakeItRain]

Now, what's really crazy is that JO and his 4.9rpg ranks squarely behind Rod, Angel, Will, and Shane.  He's also behind Gip and Nino.  Basically, he's dwindling down there with Irving. 

What's frustrating about this is that _FAN has done the work for you, I bet you've even read it, but you still choose to go this lazy and stupid route completely unnecessarily 

[Belvis Noland]

Now, what's really crazy is that JO and his 4.9rpg ranks squarely behind Rod, Angel, Will, and Shane.  He's also behind Gip and Nino.  Basically, he's dwindling down there with Irving. 

What's frustrating about this is that _FAN has done the work for you, I bet you've even read it, but you still choose to go this lazy and stupid route completely unnecessarily 

Actually, no, I didn't read FAN's top100 analyis until after I posted.  I was just relying on oscar's postgame that I listened to on the drive home from the game. 

Notwithstanding, I still think JO's problems are primarily a product of his own output, as opposed to oscar's system.     

[8manpick]

Now, what's really crazy is that JO and his 4.9rpg ranks squarely behind Rod, Angel, Will, and Shane.  He's also behind Gip and Nino.  Basically, he's dwindling down there with Irving. 

What's frustrating about this is that _FAN has done the work for you, I bet you've even read it, but you still choose to go this lazy and stupid route completely unnecessarily 

Actually, no, I didn't read FAN's top100 analyis until after I posted.  I was just relying on oscar's postgame that I listened to on the drive home from the game. 

Notwithstanding, I still think JO's problems are primarily a product of his own output, as opposed to oscar's system.     

I think the stats are telling us that, while JO is not playing as good as the best JO, he is still our best option at center. 

In conference games:

              ORating    eFG%      OR%      DR%     OR/100     DR/100     BLK/100    TO/100    Fouls/100
Gip            94.4       53.1       9.7       16.3         4.9         8.1            1.1          6.5        11.4
JO            111.4      59.2       10.2      26.9        5.2         13.4           5.7          2.1        11.4

I understand the frustration with JO not dominating like he did for a short stretch in the last half of conference play last year, but the stats seem to show that he is playing better than he ever has.

JO Conference Stats

#TeamJO

[MakeItRain]

Now, what's really crazy is that JO and his 4.9rpg ranks squarely behind Rod, Angel, Will, and Shane.  He's also behind Gip and Nino.  Basically, he's dwindling down there with Irving. 

What's frustrating about this is that _FAN has done the work for you, I bet you've even read it, but you still choose to go this lazy and stupid route completely unnecessarily 

Actually, no, I didn't read FAN's top100 analyis until after I posted.  I was just relying on oscar's postgame that I listened to on the drive home from the game. 

Notwithstanding, I still think JO's problems are primarily a product of his own output, as opposed to oscar's system.     

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue so I'm just going to leave it alone.

[Belvis Noland]

Now, what's really crazy is that JO and his 4.9rpg ranks squarely behind Rod, Angel, Will, and Shane.  He's also behind Gip and Nino.  Basically, he's dwindling down there with Irving. 

What's frustrating about this is that _FAN has done the work for you, I bet you've even read it, but you still choose to go this lazy and stupid route completely unnecessarily 

Actually, no, I didn't read FAN's top100 analyis until after I posted.  I was just relying on oscar's postgame that I listened to on the drive home from the game. 

Notwithstanding, I still think JO's problems are primarily a product of his own output, as opposed to oscar's system.     

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue so I'm just going to leave it alone.

It's pretty simple.  JOs minutes are down.  The last several pages of this thread have discussed why, some suggesting it's oscar's system. 

I'm not arguing anything.  Just stating an opinion.  I don't think JO is on the bench is because of system. 

Is JO better than Gip?  Sure.  I don't really care.  They're both pretty piss poor.  As somebody said in the NBAF thread, it's kinda like determining who sells the best crap sandwich.  Our bigs are pretty much garbage IMO.  Maybe I'm being too harsh. 

[ksupamplemousse]

Now, what's really crazy is that JO and his 4.9rpg ranks squarely behind Rod, Angel, Will, and Shane.  He's also behind Gip and Nino.  Basically, he's dwindling down there with Irving. 

What's frustrating about this is that _FAN has done the work for you, I bet you've even read it, but you still choose to go this lazy and stupid route completely unnecessarily 

Actually, no, I didn't read FAN's top100 analyis until after I posted.  I was just relying on oscar's postgame that I listened to on the drive home from the game. 

Notwithstanding, I still think JO's problems are primarily a product of his own output, as opposed to oscar's system.     

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue so I'm just going to leave it alone.

It's pretty simple.  JOs minutes are down.  The last several pages of this thread have discussed why, some suggesting it's oscar's system. 

I'm not arguing anything.  Just stating an opinion.  I don't think JO is on the bench is because of system. 

Is JO better than Gip?  Sure.  I don't really care.  They're both pretty piss poor.  As somebody said in the NBAF thread, it's kinda like determining who sells the best crap sandwich.  Our bigs are pretty much garbage IMO.  Maybe I'm being too harsh.

If the best crap sandwich can possibly help you win ball games with increased playing time, then I think it's probably worth discussing.

[MakeItRain]

Its simple Belvis, Gip is better with his back to the basket which is advantageous to any 4 out 1 in offense. This isn't anyones fault, its a simple skillset match. JO was better in the pinch post because he was able to face up, just like I mentioned that he's been better offensively lately because the coaches have him rolling off of high screens. Last year Gip found himself with less minutes because when we went to the pinch post he was ineffective because he couldn't do anything catching the ball on the elbow, nor was he as effective with the lobs that the pinch post created. Again this was nobodies fault, it was a skillset mismatch.

If you want to reduce this to the very simple argument of JO not putting forth effort, you can do that I guess. I'd point to the fact that JO started last game as evidence that oscar disagrees with you.

There is no bad guy here, with the ISU game being the obvious exception all the bigs seem to be good with their roles and performing very well as a group.

[Clevey 2 Times]

JO's biggest problem, other than clown sized feet...is his own effort and basketball IQ. I think you have to place JO squarely in the "was better with Frank" category simply because he responded to fear. He won't respond in the same way to oscar. Not a knock on oscar, just different styles. I just don't think JO is a hard worker. I'm always looking for reasons to bench Nino, but in this case I think his minutes are warranted.

Plus, the thought of JO and Gip together running the motion offense is pretty disgusting.

[8manpick]

You rough ridin' people are ignoring the fact JO's numbers in conference play this year (other than minutes) are better than they ever have been. 

[ksupamplemousse]

You rough ridin' people are ignoring the fact JO's numbers in conference play this year (other than minutes) are better than they ever have been. 

Yeah, the last ten games of last year have really given people unreasonable expectations for what JO should be doing. I guess since he isn't doing that then he sucks 

[Skipper44]

It just sucks that we have a lob throwing Picasso and DOBing DaVinci on the roster and we hardly ever get to enjoy the combo.  I can recall only one attempted ART2JO oop attempt this season and it failed. 

[MakeItRain]

You rough ridin' people are ignoring the fact JOs numbers in conference play this year (other than minutes) are better than they ever have been. 

People need reasons to bitch I guess, Cleveland's post was the dumbest thing I've read in a long time. I think saying someone "just doesn't work hard" is a crutch for someone who has no idea how to explain what they are looking at.

[ksupamplemousse]

Gipson played twice as much as JO today and had less points, one more rebound, and got beaten like a rented mule on defense all afternoon. Nino played more than JO and did nothing. Literally nothing. He had one rebound and a steal. We won today in spite of oscar grossly mismanaging the roster, most noticeably the frontcourt.

[ednksu]

Gipson played twice as much as JO today and had less points, one more rebound, and got beaten like a rented mule on defense all afternoon. Nino played more than JO and did nothing. Literally nothing. He had one rebound and a steal. We won today in spite of oscar grossly mismanaging the roster, most noticeably the frontcourt.

[sys]

why are people acting like it's a mystifying point deuce is making?  just because he's a known weber sceptic?  jhr was a decent offensive player and a game changer on defense last year, and he's only played about a third of kstate's minutes this season.  it's odd.

[kim carnes]

why are people acting like it's a mystifying point deuce is making?  just because he's a known weber sceptic?  jhr was a decent offensive player and a game changer on defense last year, and he's only played about a third of kstate's minutes this season.  it's odd.

conspirator!