2013 QB Competition: Sams vs. Waters

[steve dave]

That goddam fourth and inches call we can't stop talking about is the least of my rough ridin' worries about Bill being a dumbass this season.

it's symptomatic of the larger problem.  I don't know if I used symptomatic correctly though.

it's used by people that still want waters to be the primary QB and for bill to use him in an offense tailored to an exclusively pocket passing dink and dunk QB calling on sams for specifically sams situations. meanwhile, I want bill to keep calling the exact stuff he has always called but with sams.

[steve dave]

a) bill rolls out a new offense to the entire team to try to work around our turnover prone pocket passer.

b) bill continues to call the plays the team has always run with our dual threat qb.

[kslim]

That goddam fourth and inches call we can't stop talking about is the least of my rough ridin' worries about Bill being a dumbass this season.

it's symptomatic of the larger problem.  I don't know if I used symptomatic correctly though.

it's used by people that still want waters to be the primary QB and for bill to use him in an offense tailored to an exclusively pocket passing dink and dunk QB calling on sams for specifically sams situations. meanwhile, I want bill to keep calling the exact stuff he has always called but with sams.

agree with the last part, not the first part

[_33]

Sams can throw.  Why do people think Sams can't throw?  He can throw.

[steve dave]

That goddam fourth and inches call we can't stop talking about is the least of my rough ridin' worries about Bill being a dumbass this season.

it's symptomatic of the larger problem.  I don't know if I used symptomatic correctly though.

it's used by people that still want waters to be the primary QB and for bill to use him in an offense tailored to an exclusively pocket passing dink and dunk QB calling on sams for specifically sams situations. meanwhile, I want bill to keep calling the exact stuff he has always called but with sams.

agree with the last part, not the first part

if people are going to bitch about the 4th down call they better bitch about the rest of the series.

[hatingfrancisco]

Sams can throw.

Waters does it better.

[catzacker]

That goddam fourth and inches call we can't stop talking about is the least of my rough ridin' worries about Bill being a dumbass this season.

it's symptomatic of the larger problem.  I don't know if I used symptomatic correctly though.

it's used by people that still want waters to be the primary QB and for bill to use him in an offense tailored to an exclusively pocket passing dink and dunk QB calling on sams for specifically sams situations. meanwhile, I want bill to keep calling the exact stuff he has always called but with sams.

I actually do agree that Waters isn’t being (and won’t be) used correctly – in so much as any time he’s asked to run (aside from a bootleg) is incorrect.  But as you point out, this offense has shown that it can’t/won’t be effective if it (a) switches to a passing offense or (b) has Waters trying to be Klein.

It’s frustrating because Bill (and staff) spent the better part of the last 2 seasons, imo, maximizing the talent through play calling and position on the field  - and now it looks like they basically forgot everything that made them successful.  But he’s getting old, so dementia is a factor. 

[dlineguyz]

I would be so excited for Waters if we didn't have Sams- The potential of Sams far outweighs anything Waters can do through the air, he fits our offense perfectly and we could be even more effective than last year on O if we just handed the reins over. Our d clearly needs as much rest as possible and Waters has made some boneheaded throws that just simply would not have happened had sams been in. Control the clock, run the zone read, get Hubert going, these are not possible without Sams in. I don't even care if Sams can't throw, remember when Klein first started playing?

[kslim]

That goddam fourth and inches call we can't stop talking about is the least of my rough ridin' worries about Bill being a dumbass this season.

it's symptomatic of the larger problem.  I don't know if I used symptomatic correctly though.

it's used by people that still want waters to be the primary QB and for bill to use him in an offense tailored to an exclusively pocket passing dink and dunk QB calling on sams for specifically sams situations. meanwhile, I want bill to keep calling the exact stuff he has always called but with sams.

agree with the last part, not the first part

if people are going to bitch about the 4th down call they better bitch about the rest of the series.

i wasnt bitching about the call. the call was fine i was bitching about the player taking the snap in said call. last week we were on the 30 going in with sams. take a time out and then here comes waters. like i said earlier no rhyme or reason as to when sams comes in and goes out.

[Rams]

a) bill rolls out a new offense to the entire team to try to work around our turnover prone pocket passer.

b) bill continues to call the plays the entire team has always run with our dual threat qb.

yeah I don't understand why people think that a coach that has made his career using a qb run based offense that he basically pioneered can and should just up and completely switch to a pocket passing system to fit a qb that looks just good as a pocket passer.  I guess if we managed to land a once in a generation pocket passing qb that could routinely throw 50 yard darts on a rope I would listen to that argument, but that's not what we have in waters. 

I guess people just think snyder is a football genius that can do anything but I don't really trust him to operate an offense that's not based around the qb run game.

[Rams]

Sams can throw.

Waters does it better.

based on what?

[Emo EMAW]

Sams can throw.

Waters does it better.

based on what?

TD/INT ratio?  No.
Completion %?  No.
YPA?  No. 

[kso_FAN]

I do have a question; where does the "dink and dunk" passing game talking point come from?

[hatingfrancisco]

a) bill rolls out a new offense to the entire team to try to work around our turnover prone pocket passer.

b) bill continues to call the plays the entire team has always run with our dual threat qb.

yeah I don't understand why people think that a coach that has made his career using a qb run based offense that he basically pioneered can and should just up and completely switch to a pocket passing system to fit a qb that looks just good as a pocket passer.  I guess if we managed to land a once in a generation pocket passing qb that could routinely throw 50 yard darts on a rope I would listen to that argument, but that's not what we have in waters. 

I guess people just think snyder is a football genius that can do anything but I don't really trust him to operate an offense that's not based around the qb run game.

You really are the worst poster on this board.

[WildcatNkilt]

Sams can throw.  Why do people think Sams can't throw?  He can throw.

Cause he's black.  Apparently black QB's can't throw.


Say What?

[hatingfrancisco]

I do have a question; where does the "dink and dunk" passing game talking point come from?

This

[Trim]

I do have a question; where does the "dink and dunk" passing game talking point come from?

Probably to contrast the WR sideline catch-and-run passes we're seeing vs. the vertical passing game that was hyped with pure pocket passer ("PPP") Waters in place.

[kso_FAN]

He's averaging 9.3 yards per attempt (3rd Big 12, 21st Nationally) on 71% completions (3rd Big 12, 18th nationally); those numbers simply aren't indicative of "dink and dunk" passing. It could be weren't not used to seeing a QB go through progressions and dumping it to underneath routes, but I assure you most of our passes are 5-step drops with intermediate routes.

Again, the intent here is not to be pro-Waters (I've stated my case on his scoring production) but this "dink and dunk" point is not demonstrated in the numbers.

[felix rex]

One of my favorite team waters talking points is "he's the best passer at K-State (pure) since Josh Freeman" (who they all hated).

So, that means he's a better passer than Collin Klein, Carson Coffman and Grant Gregory. That's a hell of a qualification. I guess it also means he's a better passer than Billy Cosh, which I would say is debatable.

[hatingfrancisco]

It's just growing pains.  We are just maturing into a well-rounded offense.  Don't give up yet guys!

[420seriouscat69]

Not that it matters, FR. I did some research on Cosh the other day. He's like the 3rd string QB at Houston and hasn't seen the field yet. Just a little fun fact.

[kso_FAN]

It's just growing pains.  We are just maturing into a well-rounded offense.  Don't give up yet guys!

I agree with this, though I do think the coaching staff overestimated the ability of Waters' led offense to finish drives with scores and underestimated Sams. Like I said before, I think the staff thought Waters was the best long term option this year (and next) to compete for the conference title. That assumption needs some clear rethinking. Or they planned the 2 QB system the entire time, and their use of Sams has been poor and less than what they should have used him. Either way, the staff has to figure it out because its clear that this offense not only needs to score more, but also needs to be better at controlling the clock to help out the defense. More Sams looks like the best solution for both at this point.

[kitten_mittons]

Not trolling.  I think Waters is a better pure passer than Sams and therefore think he gives us a better opportunity to win the Dr. Pepper.

How many Dr. Peppers have we won with "pure passers" at QB, and how many have we won with non "pure passers?"

[Skipper44]

He's averaging 9.3 yards per attempt (3rd Big 12, 21st Nationally) on 71% completions (3rd Big 12, 18th nationally); those numbers simply aren't indicative of "dink and dunk" passing. It could be weren't not used to seeing a QB go through progressions and dumping it to underneath routes, but I assure you most of our passes are 5-step drops with intermediate routes.

Again, the intent here is not to be pro-Waters (I've stated my case on his scoring production) but this "dink and dunk" point is not demonstrated in the numbers.

it may not be swing passed and 5 yard outs everytime but not producing TD is a problem.  It looks like this team will not be able to run the ball with Waters at QB and I don't like our WR personnel in the redzone, especially if teams don't have to commit much to stopping the run game.

Waters arm doesn't look much better than a healthy Dylan Meier and we saw him put up good numbers in losses to average big 12 ('04 ATM and TT come to mind) teams multiple times in an era before 40 points was almost required to when a conference game.  And he had Sproles in the backfield. 

I truly pray this has been some combo of motivate Sams/prepare Waters when we need him and not a sea change of offensive philosophy for this staff.  We can't continue to recruit undersized players at RB and WR, 3 star projects at OL and DITR guys on D and expect to not become ISU in today's Big 12 - the early 90s Big 8 is not today's Big 12.

[Cartierfor3]

That goddam fourth and inches call we can't stop talking about is the least of my rough ridin' worries about Bill being a dumbass this season.

it's symptomatic of the larger problem.  I don't know if I used symptomatic correctly though.

it's used by people that still want waters to be the primary QB and for bill to use him in an offense tailored to an exclusively pocket passing dink and dunk QB calling on sams for specifically sams situations. meanwhile, I want bill to keep calling the exact stuff he has always called but with sams.

I was just bummed we didn't get a Wildcat First Down. We would kept the ball, our cheer would've pissed off Mike DeArmond, it would've been great.