2013 QB Competition: Sams vs. Waters

[catzacker]

It's just growing pains.  We are just maturing into a well-rounded offense.  Don't give up yet guys!

I agree with this, though I do think the coaching staff overestimated the ability of Waters' led offense to finish drives with scores and underestimated Sams. Like I said before, I think the staff thought Waters was the best long term option this year (and next) to compete for the conference title. That assumption needs some clear rethinking. Or they planned the 2 QB system the entire time, and their use of Sams has been poor and less than what they should have used him. Either way, the staff has to figure it out because its clear that this offense not only needs to score more, but also needs to be better at controlling the clock to help out the defense. More Sams looks like the best solution for both at this point.

I have this weird hope/dream that Bill is just messing around and come 7pm in Austin, #Life just runs wild over Texas. Almost a bit karma-ish with Vince taking over for Chance Mock.

[steve dave]

I do have a question; where does the "dink and dunk" passing game talking point come from?

Probably to contrast the WR sideline catch-and-run passes we're seeing vs. the vertical passing game that was hyped with pure pocket passer ("PPP") Waters in place.

that was my reasoning.

[Cartierfor3]

I'm not ready to call Waters turnover prone, and based on Dlew's* post it really isn't a needed as a case for Sams starting. The way Daniel has produced is the best case for him starting.** Of the 4 interceptions 1 was an end of the game heave and one was a tip by our WR.














*Subcontracted from SD
**I know I started the "Not about the QB play" thread after NDSU, and I do think Waters has been good and QB play was not the primary reason for that loss. However, based on the production stats I'm firmly on team start Sams until his production dictates otherwise.

[kso_FAN]

it may not be swing passed and 5 yard outs everytime but not producing TD is a problem.  It looks like this team will not be able to run the ball with Waters at QB and I don't like our WR personnel in the redzone, especially if teams don't have to commit much to stopping the run game.

Waters arm doesn't look much better than a healthy Dylan Meier and we saw him put up good numbers in losses to average big 12 ('04 ATM and TT come to mind) teams multiple times in an era before 40 points was almost required to when a conference game.  And he had Sproles in the backfield. 

I truly pray this has been some combo of motivate Sams/prepare Waters when we need him and not a sea change of offensive philosophy for this staff.  We can't continue to recruit undersized players at RB and WR, 3 star projects at OL and DITR guys on D and expect to not become ISU in today's Big 12 - the early 90s Big 8 is not today's Big 12.

I agree with most of that (I think Waters arms might be very good, better that Meiers, but its still way early).

IMO the biggest error in judgement this staff made was the ability to run the ball with Waters at QB. If we can't run with Waters at QB then that completely changes the way we run our offense.

[kim carnes]

I'm not saying this to pass judgement on anyone or say anyone is a dumbass but if you actually believe that Jake Waters is even going to get a cup of coffee in the NFL you are a dumbass and I judge you as thus.

another data point: curtis kitchen tweeted that jake was one of the best passers in college football. I'm not judging that either.

if each NFL team had 5 QBs, he still wouldn't make a roster.

[Trim]

He's averaging 9.3 yards per attempt (3rd Big 12, 21st Nationally) on 71% completions (3rd Big 12, 18th nationally); those numbers simply aren't indicative of "dink and dunk" passing. It could be weren't not used to seeing a QB go through progressions and dumping it to underneath routes, but I assure you most of our passes are 5-step drops with intermediate routes.

Again, the intent here is not to be pro-Waters (I've stated my case on his scoring production) but this "dink and dunk" point is not demonstrated in the numbers.

Yards are yards, whether they're obtained from an 8-yard (north-south, not how far the ball traveled) pass and 17-yard RAC, or a 25-yard highlight-reel, thread-the-needle diving catch.  "Dink and dunk" is being said because the former is boring and the latter was what was expected when Waters got the job and it was "leaked" that he was the best pure passer Snyder's ever had.  I don't think numbers, at least averages, are going to dissuade anyone from calling it dink and dunk or something similar to express their displeasure that we've got Sams on the bench backing up the guy who was going to sling it all over the field but is overwhelmingly dumping it off on short routes looking for YAC.  Those are probably good decisions and keeping him from throwing even more INTs than he has.

But I've been bored and/or drunk for both games.  Maybe there's something that shows he's throwing the ball far downfield more than it feels, which is different from having a decent Y/A average largely based on YAC.

[star seed 7]

It's just growing pains.  We are just maturing into a well-rounded offense.  Don't give up yet guys!

I agree with this, though I do think the coaching staff overestimated the ability of Waters' led offense to finish drives with scores and underestimated Sams. Like I said before, I think the staff thought Waters was the best long term option this year (and next) to compete for the conference title. That assumption needs some clear rethinking. Or they planned the 2 QB system the entire time, and their use of Sams has been poor and less than what they should have used him. Either way, the staff has to figure it out because its clear that this offense not only needs to score more, but also needs to be better at controlling the clock to help out the defense. More Sams looks like the best solution for both at this point.

My suspicion is that waters is like an amazing super stud practicer, and the staff is just baffled when it comes game time and he struggles.

Dayne christ is also an amazing practicer.  (not saying waters is Dwyane)

[Skipper44]

it may not be swing passed and 5 yard outs everytime but not producing TD is a problem.  It looks like this team will not be able to run the ball with Waters at QB and I don't like our WR personnel in the redzone, especially if teams don't have to commit much to stopping the run game.

Waters arm doesn't look much better than a healthy Dylan Meier and we saw him put up good numbers in losses to average big 12 ('04 ATM and TT come to mind) teams multiple times in an era before 40 points was almost required to when a conference game.  And he had Sproles in the backfield. 

I truly pray this has been some combo of motivate Sams/prepare Waters when we need him and not a sea change of offensive philosophy for this staff.  We can't continue to recruit undersized players at RB and WR, 3 star projects at OL and DITR guys on D and expect to not become ISU in today's Big 12 - the early 90s Big 8 is not today's Big 12.

I agree with most of that (I think Waters arms might be very good, better that Meiers, but its still way early).

IMO the biggest error in judgement this staff made was the ability to run the ball with Waters at QB. If we can't run with Waters at QB then that completely changes the way we run our offense.

we will be back to running the pre Bishop O that was succesfull in the days of Big 8 defenses recruited to stop Nebraska, Colorado and OU option football and had cat defenses recruited and coached by Stoops, Venables, Levitt etc.

[star seed 7]

Agree with trim that waters is boring and it feels like a 3 yard pass every play.

[steve dave]

I bet I'd like waters a lot more if we still had chris. I'd like everything more then, tho.

[Panjandrum]

He's averaging 9.3 yards per attempt (3rd Big 12, 21st Nationally) on 71% completions (3rd Big 12, 18th nationally); those numbers simply aren't indicative of "dink and dunk" passing. It could be weren't not used to seeing a QB go through progressions and dumping it to underneath routes, but I assure you most of our passes are 5-step drops with intermediate routes.

Again, the intent here is not to be pro-Waters (I've stated my case on his scoring production) but this "dink and dunk" point is not demonstrated in the numbers.

I think you can file this under the same misunderstanding where 95% of college football fans called every spread offense a WCO until everyone got hip to the fact that a rectangle isn't necessarily a square, etc.

[catzacker]

What’s frustrating to me about Waters is that, so, we get a picture of him and it is showing.  It’s very obvious.  And so of course we get excited because it looks pretty good, right?  I mean, it seems like it’s a perfect fit, not too big, not too small.  Then when we get him on the field, it’s difficult to see, especially on TV.  I’m not sure if it really shows when he’s on the field. 

[yoga-like_abana]

I bet I'd like waters a lot more if we still had chris. I'd like everything more then, tho.

me too sd, me too

[felix rex]

Not that it matters, FR. I did some research on Cosh the other day. He's like the 3rd string QB at Houston and hasn't seen the field yet. Just a little fun fact.

Good. Then it's definitively settled. Best passer since Josh Freeman.

[Trim]

I bet I'd like waters a lot more if we still had chris. I'd like everything more then, tho.

Oh yeah, dinking and dunking or whatever it's called to Chris and watching him truck over dudes and talk crap would be super-fun.

[yoga-like_abana]

Not that it matters, FR. I did some research on Cosh the other day. He's like the 3rd string QB at Houston and hasn't seen the field yet. Just a little fun fact.

Good. Then it's definitively settled. Best passer since Josh Freeman.

did you ever see billy throw a pass to his had? best passer ever! and it would tug at your emawstrings

[yoga-like_abana]

I bet I'd like waters a lot more if we still had chris. I'd like everything more then, tho.

Oh yeah, dinking and dunking or whatever it's called to Chris and watching him truck over dudes and talk crap would be super-fun.

can you imagine sams and chris celebrating in the end zone together 

[pissclams]

He's averaging 9.3 yards per attempt (3rd Big 12, 21st Nationally) on 71% completions (3rd Big 12, 18th nationally); those numbers simply aren't indicative of "dink and dunk" passing. It could be weren't not used to seeing a QB go through progressions and dumping it to underneath routes, but I assure you most of our passes are 5-step drops with intermediate routes.

Again, the intent here is not to be pro-Waters (I've stated my case on his scoring production) but this "dink and dunk" point is not demonstrated in the numbers.

it may not be swing passed and 5 yard outs everytime but not producing TD is a problem.  It looks like this team will not be able to run the ball with Waters at QB and I don't like our WR personnel in the redzone, especially if teams don't have to commit much to stopping the run game.

Waters arm doesn't look much better than a healthy Dylan Meier and we saw him put up good numbers in losses to average big 12 ('04 ATM and TT come to mind) teams multiple times in an era before 40 points was almost required to when a conference game.  And he had Sproles in the backfield. 

I truly pray this has been some combo of motivate Sams/prepare Waters when we need him and not a sea change of offensive philosophy for this staff.  We can't continue to recruit undersized players at RB and WR, 3 star projects at OL and DITR guys on D and expect to not become ISU in today's Big 12 - the early 90s Big 8 is not today's Big 12.

when you mention Meier, are you referring to Cheesy Mustache QB (who might make an appearance)?

[steve dave]

I bet I'd like waters a lot more if we still had chris. I'd like everything more then, tho.

Oh yeah, dinking and dunking or whatever it's called to Chris and watching him truck over dudes and talk crap would be super-fun.

can you imagine sams and chris celebrating in the end zone together 

NO! TOO MUCH!

[kso_FAN]

I was hoping Miller might become Chris-ish. :(

[steve dave]

I was hoping Miller might become Chris-ish. :(

he has had a long career of sucking so I figured he wouldn't

[Rams]

It's just growing pains.  We are just maturing into a well-rounded offense.  Don't give up yet guys!

I agree with this, though I do think the coaching staff overestimated the ability of Waters' led offense to finish drives with scores and underestimated Sams. Like I said before, I think the staff thought Waters was the best long term option this year (and next) to compete for the conference title. That assumption needs some clear rethinking. Or they planned the 2 QB system the entire time, and their use of Sams has been poor and less than what they should have used him. Either way, the staff has to figure it out because its clear that this offense not only needs to score more, but also needs to be better at controlling the clock to help out the defense. More Sams looks like the best solution for both at this point.

this is what snyder keeps making it sound like every time he's asked about it.  he's never really had 2 qb's that have different skill sets and he can't figure out how to use them both effectively.  seems like it's killing him.

[steve dave]

how hard can it be? I mean, abandon running the ball and dink and dunk all the way down the field with interceptiondeliverysystem.com and run the normal snyder offense with sams.

[MadCat]

Is IDS.com an acceptable abbreviation?

[Rage Against the McKee]

I do have a question; where does the "dink and dunk" passing game talking point come from?

For me, it's how we consistently complete passes at the chains to slowly move the ball through the air until we cross the 50 yard line, and then it all goes to crap and we usually don't even get a field goal. It's like bend but don't break defense working effectively, only it's our offense.