Author Topic: 2013 QB Competition: Sams vs. Waters  (Read 319238 times)

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Offline Mikeyis4dcats

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Re: Waters is so good
« Reply #1325 on: September 09, 2013, 11:17:39 AM »
This thread makes me sad. I wish we could all stop bickering about QB and just agree that the real reason we're gonna struggle to get 6 Ws is that our D, and to a lightly lesser extent our O-Line and RB, suck balls and taint.

I also think we're going to need to play Sams more because we simply must have a better running game to chew up yards and clock, especially when our D is just so unbelievably soft. Like a warm, soft turd. But damn, I just really wanted to watch TLABL rack up 200 yards a game snagging pass after beautiful laser-like precision pass. If the passer can't run for crap, it just won't matter.

The defense is giving up about the same yards per play as they were last year, give or take a few inches.  The only difference is that this year, we're -2 on turnovers after two games as opposed to +4.

Missouri State was a really bad offense last year, and we gave up 414 yards.  It's just that, during that game, we only gave up 9 points, so folks didn't panic as much.

LaLa was a top ten team last year in terms of yards per play on offense, and they have a pretty strong dual threat QB.  We held them to under 400 yards, and the first half was pretty dominant, defensively.

The defense is getting scapegoated pretty hard right now, and they aren't nearly as bad as everyone thinks they are, at least statistically.  We just don't have an Arthur Brown running around out there making us look really good.

Also, Waters is turning the ball over too much, and that's putting us in bad spots.

Yeah. The D gave up 10 points to Lafayette. The special teams gave up 7 and Waters gave up 10.

it wasn't a pick-6, the D still let them score.

Offline Frankenklein

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Re: Waters is so good
« Reply #1326 on: September 09, 2013, 11:19:20 AM »
Have we discussed how lacking throwing downfield further than 15+ yards and trying for bomb (if my memory serves me right) might be why our passing game sucks?  Waters two best throws this year were those two bombs against NDSU.  Does it fall back on LHC BS's clock management scheme?  OL inability to pass protect long enough for those plays to develop?

It's Waters not being confident enough to go deep. Given his TD:INT ratio, the lack of deep passes might not be a bad thing.

Maybe a little gun shy following his failed bomb attempt to Trujillo?  :dunno:

Waters had the best yards per attempt in NJCAA at 10.5 yds last year.  I find it hard to believe that he had more athletic/explosive receivers than he does this year.
I think he had a receiver last year with amazing YAC

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Waters is so good
« Reply #1327 on: September 09, 2013, 11:20:31 AM »
This thread makes me sad. I wish we could all stop bickering about QB and just agree that the real reason we're gonna struggle to get 6 Ws is that our D, and to a lightly lesser extent our O-Line and RB, suck balls and taint.

I also think we're going to need to play Sams more because we simply must have a better running game to chew up yards and clock, especially when our D is just so unbelievably soft. Like a warm, soft turd. But damn, I just really wanted to watch TLABL rack up 200 yards a game snagging pass after beautiful laser-like precision pass. If the passer can't run for crap, it just won't matter.

The defense is giving up about the same yards per play as they were last year, give or take a few inches.  The only difference is that this year, we're -2 on turnovers after two games as opposed to +4.

Missouri State was a really bad offense last year, and we gave up 414 yards.  It's just that, during that game, we only gave up 9 points, so folks didn't panic as much.

LaLa was a top ten team last year in terms of yards per play on offense, and they have a pretty strong dual threat QB.  We held them to under 400 yards, and the first half was pretty dominant, defensively.

The defense is getting scapegoated pretty hard right now, and they aren't nearly as bad as everyone thinks they are, at least statistically.  We just don't have an Arthur Brown running around out there making us look really good.

Also, Waters is turning the ball over too much, and that's putting us in bad spots.

Yeah. The D gave up 10 points to Lafayette. The special teams gave up 7 and Waters gave up 10.

it wasn't a pick-6, the D still let them score.

Almost every defense would have given up 7 there. You just can't expect a defense to not give up points when they have to start inside their own red zone. The fact that they only allowed a field goal off the first interception speaks volumes to just how well they played Saturday night.

Offline steve dave

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Re: Waters is so good
« Reply #1328 on: September 09, 2013, 11:55:49 AM »
Have we discussed how lacking throwing downfield further than 15+ yards and trying for bomb (if my memory serves me right) might be why our passing game sucks?  Waters two best throws this year were those two bombs against NDSU.  Does it fall back on LHC BS's clock management scheme?  OL inability to pass protect long enough for those plays to develop?

It's Waters not being confident enough to go deep. Given his TD:INT ratio, the lack of deep passes might not be a bad thing.

Maybe a little gun shy following his failed bomb attempt to Trujillo?  :dunno:

Waters had the best yards per attempt in NJCAA at 10.5 yds last year.  I find it hard to believe that he had more athletic/explosive receivers than he does this year.
I think he had a receiver last year with amazing YAC

a ridiculous % of his passing yardage last season was to that one guy. that WR had stupid numbers.

Offline Trim

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Re: Team waters
« Reply #1329 on: September 09, 2013, 12:32:39 PM »
It could be a while.  I've got a bunch of random content claim things on games from last year that I've got to get fixed up I guess.  But CatMatt is on board!

Offline GoodForAnother

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Re: Team waters
« Reply #1330 on: September 09, 2013, 12:42:46 PM »
It could be a while.  I've got a bunch of random content claim things on games from last year that I've got to get fixed up I guess.  But CatMatt is on board!

that's ok, my start wearing purple vid still won't play on mobile thanks to youtube's fascist rules
emaw

Offline Rams

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Re: Waters is so good
« Reply #1331 on: September 09, 2013, 01:12:02 PM »
This thread is so full of  :flush:.  Can't wait to see you guys back on the Waters train when we trail Baylor by 3 TD's.

Why? Are we going to need more turnovers or something?
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Offline 8manpick

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Re: Waters is so good
« Reply #1332 on: September 09, 2013, 02:16:18 PM »

Waters had the best yards per attempt in NJCAA at 10.5 yds last year.  I find it hard to believe that he had more athletic/explosive receivers than he does this year.
is this a serious post?

He had a 5-star receiver that had the best season in the history of ever and he would be our best receiver, just fyi
:adios:

Offline Panjandrum

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Re: Waters is so good
« Reply #1333 on: September 09, 2013, 02:18:11 PM »
Points scored are kind of a big deal.  Last year, we gave up 24 or more 5 times (twice we gave up just 24).  We’ve given up 24 or more in both games (sure, 7 of that from LaLa was special teams, but whatever).  This is not a good defense.  The DL gets pushed around a lot, the LB’s are remarkably slow both to the ball and in coverage, the secondary is going to get absolutely torched this year, Zims is either trying to compensate for the rest of the secondary being bad or has just regressed, and the only one who looks like he plays with any effort is Mueller.  They are getting scapegoated just fine. 

The only surprise or highlight out of the last game for the defense was that Tanner’s finally put in a zone blitz concept whereby the DL/DT dropped back into coverage.

I just think that it's a combination of the offense putting them in worse spots and them not generating turnovers that's causing the scoring.  Again, from a pure yardage standpoint, the two defenses differ by a matter of inches.

Also, the first half defensive performances in both games weren't really that bad.  They seem to wear down in the second half, which may also be a byproduct of these games being on two of the hottest days of the entire year.

I mean, let's face it, we beat Miami 52-13 last year, and we were +2 on TO because they fumbled it three times.  Had Miami not coughed all of those up, and we recovered all of them, maybe we win that game 38-27 or something like that, and the score would have more accurately reflected what we saw against ULL last night.  And, to be clear, if we're going by last year's stats, ULL had a better offense than Miami did if you're looking at yards per play.

I'm not saying that they are a good defense.  But I don't think they're as bad as a lot of people are making them out to be.

Offline Belvis Noland

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Re: Waters is so good
« Reply #1334 on: September 09, 2013, 02:19:23 PM »
Guys, let's all just agree that Waters is a good, quality QB.  Sams is just better.  And then we can end this thread and focus on our terrible Defense and the BSFS thread. 

Offline steve dave

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Re: Waters is so good
« Reply #1335 on: September 09, 2013, 02:24:05 PM »
Guys, let's all just agree that Waters is a good, quality QB.  Sams is just better.  And then we can end this thread and focus on our terrible Defense and the BSFS thread.

I think Waters would be a good, quality QB for another team (if he cleans up the INTs). Sams may not be the best option for some team that demands their QB sit in the pocket and throw short passes all game. just different types of guys that could each be great for certain types of teams.

Offline Panjandrum

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Re: Waters is so good
« Reply #1336 on: September 09, 2013, 02:30:33 PM »
Guys, let's all just agree that Waters is a good, quality QB.  Sams is just better.  And then we can end this thread and focus on our terrible Defense and the BSFS thread.

I think Waters would be a good, quality QB for another team (if he cleans up the INTs). Sams may not be the best option for some team that demands their QB sit in the pocket and throw short passes all game. just different types of guys that could each be great for certain types of teams.

I agree with all of this.

Offline WildcatNkilt

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Re: Waters is so good
« Reply #1337 on: September 09, 2013, 02:34:21 PM »
Last year our defense had sustained offensive drives to rely on in order to catch some wind.

Yea it was hot on Saturday, but our offense was puttering in the 2nd half (outside of Sams) and our defense was running back onto the field after 3 plays.  Waters is good and has a great arm, but the 3rd and longs are frustrating.  Last year, we were rarely in 3rd and long situations.  Usually it was 3rd and 2 or 3 and Klein could lean forward for an easy first down and 3 more plays.  Every game we struggled in last year our defense was constantly on the field.  Sams opens up the run game for Hubert, and has the tools to sustain drives that keeps our defense off the field. 





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Offline WildcatNkilt

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Re: Waters is so good
« Reply #1338 on: September 09, 2013, 02:37:26 PM »
Also, the tucks saying Sams can't throw is really annoying.  I can't begin to tell you guys how often I heard this on Saturday.  The few samples we have to make a judgement call are in favor of him being a decent passer.
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Offline Panjandrum

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Re: Waters is so good
« Reply #1339 on: September 09, 2013, 02:40:11 PM »
It's like Bill wants the offense to be a certain way (wide open passing) based on some of the offensive struggles we saw last year, but in his heart, he wants a QB run game so bad.  So, we get this two-headed QB thing because we're watching his head and his heart fighting each other on the field.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Waters is so good
« Reply #1340 on: September 09, 2013, 02:43:20 PM »
I still think Waters is average at best. Here or anywhere else.

Offline Trim

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Re: Waters is so good
« Reply #1341 on: September 09, 2013, 02:44:48 PM »
Also, the tucks saying Sams can't throw is really annoying.  I can't begin to tell you guys how often I heard this on Saturday.  The few samples we have to make a judgement call are in favor of him being a decent passer.

Quote from: tuck in response to your point
Black tho.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Waters is so good
« Reply #1342 on: September 09, 2013, 02:45:31 PM »
I still think Waters is average at best. Here or anywhere else.

I think he would be the best option at QB if he were at OU, West Virginia, KU, Iowa State, or Texas. So yeah, he's about average in terms of Big 12 QBs.

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: Waters is so good
« Reply #1343 on: September 09, 2013, 02:48:50 PM »
Last year our defense had sustained offensive drives to rely on in order to catch some wind.

Yea it was hot on Saturday, but our offense was puttering in the 2nd half (outside of Sams) and our defense was running back onto the field after fizz plays.  Waters is good and has a great arm, but the 3rd and longs are frustrating.  Last year, we were rarely in 3rd and long situations.  Usually it was 3rd and 2 or fizz and Klein could lean forward for an easy first down and fizz more plays.  Every game we struggled in last year our defense was constantly on the field.  Sams opens up the run game for Hubert, and has the tools to sustain drives that keeps our defense off the field. 

The defense had some let downs late in the 3rd quarter and early in the 4th, no doubt.

But...
Opening KO return for score.
Defense holds (8 plays, 34 yards), KO return to the 2.
Offense 2 play drive. (34-3 score)
ST gives up KO return.
Offense goes 3 plays before Water's TD.
LaLa scores on defense with 17 yards field. (34-17)
Offense goes 3 and out.
Defense gets pick 6 after the punt. (41-17).
Then the defense gives up an 80 yard drive. (41-24)
At this point TOP in the 3rd quarter was 9 minutes to a little over 2 for K-State.



Offline michigancat

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Re: Waters is so good
« Reply #1344 on: September 09, 2013, 02:52:07 PM »
Last year our defense had sustained offensive drives to rely on in order to catch some wind.

Yea it was hot on Saturday, but our offense was puttering in the 2nd half (outside of Sams) and our defense was running back onto the field after fizz plays.  Waters is good and has a great arm, but the 3rd and longs are frustrating.  Last year, we were rarely in 3rd and long situations.  Usually it was 3rd and 2 or fizz and Klein could lean forward for an easy first down and fizz more plays.  Every game we struggled in last year our defense was constantly on the field.  Sams opens up the run game for Hubert, and has the tools to sustain drives that keeps our defense off the field. 

The defense had some let downs late in the 3rd quarter and early in the 4th, no doubt.

But...
Opening KO return for score.
Defense holds (8 plays, 34 yards), KO return to the 2.
Offense 2 play drive. (34-fizz score)
ST gives up KO return.
Offense goes fizz plays before Water's TD.
LaLa scores on defense with 17 yards field. (34-17)
Offense goes fizz and out.
Defense gets pick fizz after the punt. (41-17).
Then the defense gives up an 80 yard drive. (41-24)
At this point TOP in the 3rd quarter was fizz minutes to a little over 2 for K-State.




ok, I'm gonna have to turn off the swear filter.

Offline steve dave

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Re: Waters is so good
« Reply #1345 on: September 09, 2013, 02:52:35 PM »
 :lol:

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Waters is so good
« Reply #1346 on: September 09, 2013, 02:53:25 PM »
His passing ability is very overrated as it relates to how our fans talk about him. He had 2 very good passes that a good hs quarterback wouldn't complete on Saturday, both when he was on the move. He can complete basic passes and his throwing motion looks good, we haven't had a pocket passer that can do this since 1995 so everyone thinks this guy is Peyton Manning.

Offline steve dave

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Re: Waters is so good
« Reply #1347 on: September 09, 2013, 02:54:16 PM »
His passing ability is very overrated as it relates to how our fans talk about him. He had 2 very good passes that a good hs quarterback wouldn't complete on Saturday, both when he was on the move. He can complete basic passes and his throwing motion looks good, we haven't had a pocket passer that can do this since 1995 so everyone thinks this guy is Peyton Manning.

josh freeman tho

Offline michigancat

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Re: Waters is so good
« Reply #1348 on: September 09, 2013, 02:54:22 PM »
His passing ability is very overrated as it relates to how our fans talk about him. He had 2 very good passes that a good hs quarterback wouldn't complete on Saturday, both when he was on the move. He can complete basic passes and his throwing motion looks good, we haven't had a pocket passer that can do this since 1995 so everyone thinks this guy is Peyton Manning.

Maybe he just looks so good because we've been watching Collin/Queso/Gregory the last 4 years?

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Waters is so good
« Reply #1349 on: September 09, 2013, 03:03:42 PM »
His passing ability is very overrated as it relates to how our fans talk about him. He had 2 very good passes that a good hs quarterback wouldn't complete on Saturday, both when he was on the move. He can complete basic passes and his throwing motion looks good, we haven't had a pocket passer that can do this since 1995 so everyone thinks this guy is Peyton Manning.

josh freeman tho

Yes, and I know I'm generalizing here, but many on Team Waters didn't like JFree and doesn't acknowledge him as a great KSU QB. I bet if you polled team waters they would take jake over josh right now if given the chance.