Recruiting: When you wish upon a star

[chum1]

Historically, we've beaten Texas out for one guy.  And that could be a stretch.

We just beat them out for Waters yesterday . . .

THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING HISTORICALLY WE'VE DOMONATED OU AND TEXAS IN RECRUITING

[pissclams]

canty was a highly rated recruit, as was frank murphy iirc

[chum1]

We beat out Tennessee and a couple others for Murphy.  Unless I'm forgetting someone, none of our highest rated recruits really panned out.  Not trying to make a tucky point there, just stating a fact.

[catzacker]

I think this thread proves the point I was trying to make in regards to recruiting services/information available during the majority of snyder’s first run.  Most of it is simply hearsay and anecdotal evidence.  There simply wasn’t/isn’t enough information available and the public recruiting infrastructure wasn’t there to be able to really establish what our recruiting looked like back then. 

[kso_FAN]

I think this thread proves the point I was trying to make in regards to recruiting services/information available during the majority of snyder’s first run.  Most of it is simply hearsay and anecdotal evidence.  There simply wasn’t/isn’t enough information available and the public recruiting infrastructure wasn’t there to be able to really establish what our recruiting looked like back then. 

Yes, I agree completely. 90s and even early 00s recruiting coverage was very spotty. Today's is better, but a lot of it is based on NFL combine type assessments as much as rivals/ESPN guys watching film.

We beat out Tennessee and a couple others for Murphy.  Unless I'm forgetting someone, none of our highest rated recruits really panned out.  Not trying to make a tucky point there, just stating a fact.

Yes, this happened a lot.

And a lot of guys that became All-Americans were 3 star at best. That's not to say they were all preferred walkons or something like Jordy Nelson (many were solid recruits) they just weren't a bunch of 4/5 star, rivals 100 types either.

I agree with others that said a lot of our problem in the last couple years of Snyder was guys not showing up, or not staying through their career. One of the strengths of Snyder's program (no matter who the assistants) has been developing players while they are here, its much harder to do that when a bunch of guys in a class don't come/stay.

[chum1]

I think this thread proves the point I was trying to make in regards to recruiting services/information available during the majority of snyder’s first run.  Most of it is simply hearsay and anecdotal evidence.  There simply wasn’t/isn’t enough information available and the public recruiting infrastructure wasn’t there to be able to really establish what our recruiting looked like back then.

That just happens to be when we started paying attention.  Ask an SEC fan about recruits from any decade and they'll give you a complete rundown.  Besides, everyone knew who the big studs were.  Everyone thought that James Allen was the best running back in his class.   Guys who everyone knew about went to places like OU.  Never KState.  KState got the three stars.  Still true today.

[Dr Rick Daris]

Instead of Ben Leber backing up Mark Simoneau, it was Matt Butler backing up Ted Sims.  Instead of John McGraw backing up Lamar Chapman, it was Marcus Watts backing up Jesse Tetuan. 

While I agree Snyder has not maximized his opportunities in recruiting, I am not sure you examples do much to support your message.  All those guys were DITRs that came from outside major recruiting areas. 

The one thing the good ones had in common is they had at least a combo off adequate size and speed for their position while the guys above that were not as good did not have both (and in some cases they had neither).

Leber was a Parade All American, Simoneau was Honorable Mention Parade All American. 

Lamar and to a certain extent Jon, were examples of where the recruiting evaluation was at the time.  Those kids, with their athletic ability would have been highly regarded players coming out of HS.  Both were all around fantastic athletes in HS.

leber was from south dakota and not that heavily recruited and simoneau was from kansas with an older brother that had already played for kansas state. also lol at saying a white quarterback from riley kansas that was only offered one or two scholarships (air force/wyoming) and chose instead to walk on at k-state would've been highly regarded by a recruiting service. that's ridiculous.

[Katpappy]

Instead of Ben Leber backing up Mark Simoneau, it was Matt Butler backing up Ted Sims.  Instead of John McGraw backing up Lamar Chapman, it was Marcus Watts backing up Jesse Tetuan. 

While I agree Snyder has not maximized his opportunities in recruiting, I am not sure you examples do much to support your message.  All those guys were DITRs that came from outside major recruiting areas. 

The one thing the good ones had in common is they had at least a combo off adequate size and speed for their position while the guys above that were not as good did not have both (and in some cases they had neither).

Leber was a Parade All American, Simoneau was Honorable Mention Parade All American. 

Lamar and to a certain extent Jon, were examples of where the recruiting evaluation was at the time.  Those kids, with their athletic ability would have been highly regarded players coming out of HS.  Both were all around fantastic athletes in HS.

leber was from south dakota and not that heavily recruited and simoneau was from kansas with an older brother that had already played for kansas state. also lol at saying a white quarterback from riley kansas that was only offered one scholarship (air force) and chose instead to walk on at k-state would've been highly regarded by a recruiting service. that's ridiculous.

Maybe OT, but we have ways of making these high school athletes into NFL draft choices.  Like the QB from JC that won two 6A State Championships and is our star SS, or the Pro-Style QB from Colorado who become one of our best daul threat QB ever.

[Dr Rick Daris]

Instead of Ben Leber backing up Mark Simoneau, it was Matt Butler backing up Ted Sims.  Instead of John McGraw backing up Lamar Chapman, it was Marcus Watts backing up Jesse Tetuan. 

While I agree Snyder has not maximized his opportunities in recruiting, I am not sure you examples do much to support your message.  All those guys were DITRs that came from outside major recruiting areas. 

The one thing the good ones had in common is they had at least a combo off adequate size and speed for their position while the guys above that were not as good did not have both (and in some cases they had neither).

Leber was a Parade All American, Simoneau was Honorable Mention Parade All American. 

Lamar and to a certain extent Jon, were examples of where the recruiting evaluation was at the time.  Those kids, with their athletic ability would have been highly regarded players coming out of HS.  Both were all around fantastic athletes in HS.

leber was from south dakota and not that heavily recruited and simoneau was from kansas with an older brother that had already played for kansas state. also lol at saying a white quarterback from riley kansas that was only offered one scholarship (air force) and chose instead to walk on at k-state would've been highly regarded by a recruiting service. that's ridiculous.

Maybe OT, but we have ways of making these high school athletes into NFL draft choices.  Like the QB from JC that won two 6A State Championships and is our star SS, or the Pro-Style QB from Colorado who become one of our best daul threat QB ever.

zimmerman is a perfect example really. guy has been a stud for us and was a two star with offers from us, northern illinois and northern iowa. he's basically the current version of jon mcgraw.

[Willesgirl]

I think this thread proves the point I was trying to make in regards to recruiting services/information available during the majority of snyder’s first run.  Most of it is simply hearsay and anecdotal evidence.  There simply wasn’t/isn’t enough information available and the public recruiting infrastructure wasn’t there to be able to really establish what our recruiting looked like back then.

That just happens to be when we started paying attention.  Ask an SEC fan about recruits from any decade and they'll give you a complete rundown.  Besides, everyone knew who the big studs were.  Everyone thought that James Allen was the best running back in his class.   Guys who everyone knew about went to places like OU.  Never KState.  KState got the three stars.  Still true today.

Who cares where the big names go? This is me talking as a fan first, I guess, but I love the guys who come here and play here because they want to be here.

It is my very favorite thing about Snyder that he takes those players and tells them, if you work hard, we're going to make this happen for you. He'll take the guy everyone said was too little (Darren Sproles) and give him a chance.

I know a few NFL recruiters and I swear none of them ever has an independent thought in their head. I swear they buy everything they hear on ESPN about every player long before they ever go look at them. Yes, how they do at the combine matters, but those stars at college-level recruiting and high-praise in NFL assessments don't take into consideration a lot of intangibles that really can make a huge difference.

I think Snyder considers the intangibles like work ethic, leadership abilities, determination, etc. almost as much as he considers athleticism, speed, etc. That is one of the main reasons he is an incredible coach. His players aren't a spreadsheet containing measurements, they're real people.

[Katpappy]

Instead of Ben Leber backing up Mark Simoneau, it was Matt Butler backing up Ted Sims.  Instead of John McGraw backing up Lamar Chapman, it was Marcus Watts backing up Jesse Tetuan. 

While I agree Snyder has not maximized his opportunities in recruiting, I am not sure you examples do much to support your message.  All those guys were DITRs that came from outside major recruiting areas. 

The one thing the good ones had in common is they had at least a combo off adequate size and speed for their position while the guys above that were not as good did not have both (and in some cases they had neither).

Leber was a Parade All American, Simoneau was Honorable Mention Parade All American. 

Lamar and to a certain extent Jon, were examples of where the recruiting evaluation was at the time.  Those kids, with their athletic ability would have been highly regarded players coming out of HS.  Both were all around fantastic athletes in HS.

leber was from south dakota and not that heavily recruited and simoneau was from kansas with an older brother that had already played for kansas state. also lol at saying a white quarterback from riley kansas that was only offered one scholarship (air force) and chose instead to walk on at k-state would've been highly regarded by a recruiting service. that's ridiculous.

Maybe OT, but we have ways of making these high school athletes into NFL draft choices.  Like the QB from JC that won two 6A State Championships and is our star SS, or the Pro-Style QB from Colorado who become one of our best daul threat QB ever.

zimmerman is a perfect example really. guy has been a stud for us and was a two star with offers from us, northern illinois and northern iowa. he's basically the current version of jon mcgraw.

That's basically it.  Synder's staff looks at the athlete and decides what position they will be good at.  I don't think they give a crap about what position they played in high school, other than being athletic and having the measurables.   He said stars were what got him in trouble after the 2003 season.

[catzacker]

I think this thread proves the point I was trying to make in regards to recruiting services/information available during the majority of snyder’s first run.  Most of it is simply hearsay and anecdotal evidence.  There simply wasn’t/isn’t enough information available and the public recruiting infrastructure wasn’t there to be able to really establish what our recruiting looked like back then.

That just happens to be when we started paying attention.  Ask an SEC fan about recruits from any decade and they'll give you a complete rundown.  Besides, everyone knew who the big studs were.  Everyone thought that James Allen was the best running back in his class.   Guys who everyone knew about went to places like OU.  Never KState.  KState got the three stars.  Still true today.

If you argument is that regardless of the robustness of recruiting services now compared to then, we were recruiting 3* kids – so it doesn’t matter if those services did not have the resources to scout some kid from Kansas then but do now because the conclusion would be that he’s a 2*/3*, then that’s certainly valid-ish. 

My point is that because we don’t really have historical records (so to speak) of recruiting like we do now, that conclusion is merely opinion/anecdotal rather than being based on anything type of sources.  10 years from now, we’ll be able to say – without any question – that we beat out Penn State for a 1st team Juco AA QB and beat out OSU for a 4* Juco AA Defensive End.  Not because we care now, but because there’s more information available and it’s retained easier.  I’m of the belief that if we had the recruiting services we do now, and the kids that were coming through KSU in the mid-late 90’s were in HS, they would have highly ranked (which may have meant we wouldn’t have gotten them).

[8manpick]

I think this thread proves the point I was trying to make in regards to recruiting services/information available during the majority of snyder’s first run.  Most of it is simply hearsay and anecdotal evidence.  There simply wasn’t/isn’t enough information available and the public recruiting infrastructure wasn’t there to be able to really establish what our recruiting looked like back then.

That just happens to be when we started paying attention.  Ask an SEC fan about recruits from any decade and they'll give you a complete rundown.  Besides, everyone knew who the big studs were.  Everyone thought that James Allen was the best running back in his class.   Guys who everyone knew about went to places like OU.  Never KState.  KState got the three stars.  Still true today.

Who cares where the big names go? This is me talking as a fan first, I guess, but I love the guys who come here and play here because they want to be here.

It is my very favorite thing about Snyder that he takes those players and tells them, if you work hard, we're going to make this happen for you. He'll take the guy everyone said was too little (Darren Sproles) and give him a chance.

I know a few NFL recruiters and I swear none of them ever has an independent thought in their head. I swear they buy everything they hear on ESPN about every player long before they ever go look at them. Yes, how they do at the combine matters, but those stars at college-level recruiting and high-praise in NFL assessments don't take into consideration a lot of intangibles that really can make a huge difference.

I think Snyder considers the intangibles like work ethic, leadership abilities, determination, etc. almost as much as he considers athleticism, speed, etc. That is one of the main reasons he is an incredible coach. His players aren't a spreadsheet containing measurements, they're real people.

:tuck:

[kim carnes]

Historically, we've beaten Texas out for one guy.  And that could be a stretch.

We just beat them out for Waters yesterday . . .

If they don't offer (they didn't), that's not beating them.

[Rage Against the McKee]

Historically, we've beaten Texas out for one guy.  And that could be a stretch.

We just beat them out for Waters yesterday . . .

If they don't offer (they didn't), that's not beating them.

They didn't offer because Waters told them to take a hike. It probably wasn't the best decision on Waters' part, but I'm glad we got him.

[michigancat]

Sorry, these anecdotes are neat, but we have simply not been recruiting at the level we were in the 90's. No, we didn't beat Texas all the time, but we were competing with programs like Texas and OU and winning the occasional battle. Look at Josh Buhl (keep in mind that Nebraska and Tennessee were top 10 teams at the time):

Even before the season started, linebacker Josh Buhl (6-1, 185, 4.5) from Mesquite, Texas, favored Kansas State. And no, this youngster from North Mesquite High is not a defensive back. This year in 11 games on a 7-4 team, he had 81 solo tackles and seven sacks. He's a great speed-rusher from the outside and has a knack for making big plays.

Kansas State (Dec. 11 official visit) will have to hold off Nebraska (Dec. 4) and Tennessee (Dec. 18).

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/football/sfc/colwal40.htm


This has a wealth of information:

http://peitsch.tripod.com/99recap.htm

http://peitsch.tripod.com/Y2Krecruits.htm


You can see things getting worse in 2001, but we weren't shitting the bed every time another BCS school offered:

http://peitsch.tripod.com/recruit.htm

[Willesgirl]

:tuck:

Proudly.

[8manpick]

Sorry, these anecdotes are neat, but we have simply not been recruiting at the level we were in the 90's. No, we didn't beat Texas all the time, but we were competing with programs like Texas and OU and winning the occasional battle. Look at Josh Buhl (keep in mind that Nebraska and Tennessee were top 10 teams at the time):

Even before the season started, linebacker Josh Buhl (6-1, 185, 4.5) from Mesquite, Texas, favored Kansas State. And no, this youngster from North Mesquite High is not a defensive back. This year in 11 games on a 7-4 team, he had 81 solo tackles and seven sacks. He's a great speed-rusher from the outside and has a knack for making big plays.

Kansas State (Dec. 11 official visit) will have to hold off Nebraska (Dec. 4) and Tennessee (Dec. 18).

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/football/sfc/colwal40.htm


This has a wealth of information:

http://peitsch.tripod.com/99recap.htm

http://peitsch.tripod.com/Y2Krecruits.htm


You can see things getting worse in 2001, but we weren't shitting the bed every time another BCS school offered:

http://peitsch.tripod.com/recruit.htm

Holy crap, I forgot about Rex Ryan at K-State

[LickNeckey]

Ohh Rex.  DC for a day.

JC won two titles with Zimms???

[Dr Rick Daris]

Sorry, these anecdotes are neat, but we have simply not been recruiting at the level we were in the 90's. No, we didn't beat Texas all the time, but we were competing with programs like Texas and OU and winning the occasional battle. Look at Josh Buhl (keep in mind that Nebraska and Tennessee were top 10 teams at the time):

Even before the season started, linebacker Josh Buhl (6-1, 185, 4.5) from Mesquite, Texas, favored Kansas State. And no, this youngster from North Mesquite High is not a defensive back. This year in 11 games on a 7-4 team, he had 81 solo tackles and seven sacks. He's a great speed-rusher from the outside and has a knack for making big plays.

Kansas State (Dec. 11 official visit) will have to hold off Nebraska (Dec. 4) and Tennessee (Dec. 18).

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/football/sfc/colwal40.htm


This has a wealth of information:

http://peitsch.tripod.com/99recap.htm

http://peitsch.tripod.com/Y2Krecruits.htm


You can see things getting worse in 2001, but we weren't shitting the bed every time another BCS school offered:

http://peitsch.tripod.com/recruit.htm

those links are great. also i don't think they show anything much different than what is currently going on. better? yeah i guess but not night and day. i think the links also showed a kstate fan picking and choosing which recruiting rankings and verbage to use to make the players sound as highly sought after as possible.

Max Emfinger ranks him #5 in the Big 12 region
MO-KAN Football ranks Brian
Rivals.com
First Down recruiting lists him as
PrepStar tabs him
J.C. GridWire All-American

[michigancat]

Sorry, these anecdotes are neat, but we have simply not been recruiting at the level we were in the 90's. No, we didn't beat Texas all the time, but we were competing with programs like Texas and OU and winning the occasional battle. Look at Josh Buhl (keep in mind that Nebraska and Tennessee were top 10 teams at the time):

Even before the season started, linebacker Josh Buhl (6-1, 185, 4.5) from Mesquite, Texas, favored Kansas State. And no, this youngster from North Mesquite High is not a defensive back. This year in 11 games on a 7-4 team, he had 81 solo tackles and seven sacks. He's a great speed-rusher from the outside and has a knack for making big plays.

Kansas State (Dec. 11 official visit) will have to hold off Nebraska (Dec. 4) and Tennessee (Dec. 18).

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/football/sfc/colwal40.htm


This has a wealth of information:

http://peitsch.tripod.com/99recap.htm

http://peitsch.tripod.com/Y2Krecruits.htm


You can see things getting worse in 2001, but we weren't shitting the bed every time another BCS school offered:

http://peitsch.tripod.com/recruit.htm

those links are great. also i don't think they show anything much different than what is currently going on. better? yeah i guess but not night and day. i think the links also showed a kstate fan picking and choosing which recruiting rankings and verbage to use to make the players sound as highly sought after as possible.

Max Emfinger ranks him #5 in the Big 12 region
MO-KAN Football ranks Brian
Rivals.com
First Down recruiting lists him as
PrepStar tabs him
J.C. GridWire All-American

Just look at the offer and visit lists, then. Even the most delusional super Cat fan can't spin those now.

Going through the 1998-99 columns of the USA today guy is pretty interesting. Lots of highly ranked guys dropped us because of the coaching exodus.

[michigancat]

Still, this is interesting:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=K59EAAAAIBAJ&sjid=07UMAAAAIBAJ&dq=kansas-state%20football%20recruiting&pg=4720%2C2322070

[Dr Rick Daris]

Sorry, these anecdotes are neat, but we have simply not been recruiting at the level we were in the 90's. No, we didn't beat Texas all the time, but we were competing with programs like Texas and OU and winning the occasional battle. Look at Josh Buhl (keep in mind that Nebraska and Tennessee were top 10 teams at the time):

Even before the season started, linebacker Josh Buhl (6-1, 185, 4.5) from Mesquite, Texas, favored Kansas State. And no, this youngster from North Mesquite High is not a defensive back. This year in 11 games on a 7-4 team, he had 81 solo tackles and seven sacks. He's a great speed-rusher from the outside and has a knack for making big plays.

Kansas State (Dec. 11 official visit) will have to hold off Nebraska (Dec. 4) and Tennessee (Dec. 18).

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/football/sfc/colwal40.htm


This has a wealth of information:

http://peitsch.tripod.com/99recap.htm

http://peitsch.tripod.com/Y2Krecruits.htm


You can see things getting worse in 2001, but we weren't shitting the bed every time another BCS school offered:

http://peitsch.tripod.com/recruit.htm

those links are great. also i don't think they show anything much different than what is currently going on. better? yeah i guess but not night and day. i think the links also showed a kstate fan picking and choosing which recruiting rankings and verbage to use to make the players sound as highly sought after as possible.

Max Emfinger ranks him #5 in the Big 12 region
MO-KAN Football ranks Brian
Rivals.com
First Down recruiting lists him as
PrepStar tabs him
J.C. GridWire All-American

Just look at the offer and visit lists, then. Even the most delusional super Cat fan can't spin those now.

Going through the 1998-99 columns of the USA today guy is pretty interesting. Lots of highly ranked guys dropped us because of the coaching exodus.

i don't know. was it better? sure/i guess. were we routinely beating out texas, nebraska and ou for recruits? no, we really weren't. just in that first tripod link alone there were guys that we were in the hunt for that we lost out on to ou, michigan, osu, miami, notre dame and arizona and that's just on offense.




also, there a lot of fan boy opinions on those links. i mean i read this and i can't take much else on that page seriously. i mean it'd be pretty hard to be more anecdotal than some of this.

Also looking at the Wildcats in the JUCO ranks was Larry Shyne from Mount San Antonio CC (same JC as current Cats DeRon Tyler). He's described as a game-breaker, possessing 4.26 40 speed to go with his 6' 175 pound frame. Shyne visited K-State , Purdue and Oregon State in successive weekends. It appears as though with the commitment of Bias that there was simply no scholarship left for Shyne and he will be a Purdue Boilermaker (although he really liked K-State). Ronald Bellamy one of the nations top WR's was also interested and visited K-State early in the recruiting process (due to the great recruiting efforts of Michael Smith) but K-State was amoung many teams who lost him to Michigan.

[michigancat]

In 1995, Snyder's just like, "you know what? eff you, I'm not releasing my recruits on signing day."

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=yM8WYnMLviIC&dat=19950202&printsec=frontpage&hl=en


And I think I'm going to just spend the rest of my day browsing the Junction City Union archives:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=zetEAAAAIBAJ&sjid=LrcMAAAAIBAJ&pg=1833%2C2165562

[Dr Rick Daris]

Still, this is interesting:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=K59EAAAAIBAJ&sjid=07UMAAAAIBAJ&dq=kansas-state%20football%20recruiting&pg=4720%2C2322070

yeah. i think snyder has always been pretty strategic with where to recruit. back then we had some ins in south florida and there weren't top 25ish programs like south florida and central florida to compete with. there were 3 fbs football school in florida in 1993. now there are 7. also, eff you guys for making it appear like i'm defending our current recruiting.