Author Topic: Once again: What is the minimum expectations of K-State Basketball?  (Read 11014 times)

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Offline michigancat

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Re: Once again: What is the minimum expectations of K-State Basketball?
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2012, 10:24:55 AM »
Wow Chin . . . really hammered home how achievable the minimum conference I put down are given how relatively weak and inconsistent the conference teams are once you get past ku.

No excuse for K-State not to step up and meet the minimum. 





I think you may have misinterpreted the data.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Once again: What is the minimum expectations of K-State Basketball?
« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2012, 10:30:12 AM »
Wow Chin . . . really hammered home how achievable the minimum conference I put down are given how relatively weak and inconsistent the conference teams are once you get past ku.

No excuse for K-State not to step up and meet the minimum. 





I think you may have misinterpreted the data.

Not really.




Offline Paul Moscow

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Re: Once again: What is the minimum expectations of K-State Basketball?
« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2012, 10:36:41 AM »
He saw the part where no one has ever met those expectations in the history of the league right?

Offline ChiComCat

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Re: Once again: What is the minimum expectations of K-State Basketball?
« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2012, 10:43:33 AM »
To be fair, Ching's data goes back 10 years which includes Huggs and Wooly.  Off the top of my head, Frank did 1 and 4, came close on 5 and 3.

I think NCAA tourney 4 of 5 years is fair.  As far as a seed restriction, I would want half of those years to be 6 or higher.

Competing for a Big 12 title once every 4 or 5 years is fair.  Frank failed at that.

Averaging a win in the NCAA tourney every year we go.  If we go out in the first round one year, I want a sweet 16 to even it.

Top 4 in conference isn't something I care about as long as the others are met and would most likely take care of itself

Offline Trim

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Re: Once again: What is the minimum expectations of K-State Basketball?
« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2012, 10:49:21 AM »
Top 4 in conference isn't something I care about as long as the others are met and would most likely take care of itself

Agree it would easily take care of itself if the others were met, but eff, I loved "no wednesdays."

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Once again: What is the minimum expectations of K-State Basketball?
« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2012, 10:56:40 AM »
I read back through what Chings posted again . . . you could maybe dumb down my minimum expectations slightly.   But again, what Chings posted tells me that stepping up to a level of consistency very near where ku is at now is an attainable.   

I would also add, that my viewpoint is influenced by the fact that K-State offers the minimum number of sports . . . that fact combined with the probability  that K-State athletics, at current levels of giving and with projected media/bowl/conference distributions will be an extremely profitable athletic department.   Hell, as it stands now, K-State is spending millions more on athletics than a number of other D1 schools who field more athletic teams, if K-State doesn't add sports, that's going to become even pronounced in the future.   

So, there's really no reason not to have TWO extremely solid major sports at K-State.


Offline 0.42

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Re: Once again: What is the minimum expectations of K-State Basketball?
« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2012, 11:01:03 AM »
I'm making this post primarily based on facilities, program interest, program history, etc.

We should not expect to consistently do better in a 5-10 year period than these Big 12 schools:

Texas
KU

We should be about on par with or slightly better than these schools in said 5-10 year period:

West Virginia
Oklahoma State (once they get their crap together they'll be a consistent power with their facilities)

Schools we should always be better than:

Oklahoma does not give a single flying crap about basketball and hasn't since the 1980's. Baylor will fall off when the NCAA finally nails Scott Drew. Istate0, Texas Tech, TCU? GTFO.

Offline Cartierfor3

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Re: Once again: What is the minimum expectations of K-State Basketball?
« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2012, 11:35:04 AM »
I'm making this post primarily based on facilities, program interest, program history, etc.

We should not expect to consistently do better in a 5-10 year period than these Big 12 schools:

Texas
KU

We should be about on par with or slightly better than these schools in said 5-10 year period:

West Virginia
Oklahoma State (once they get their crap together they'll be a consistent power with their facilities)

Schools we should always be better than:

Oklahoma does not give a single flying crap about basketball and hasn't since the 1980's. Baylor will fall off when the NCAA finally nails Scott Drew. Istate0, Texas Tech, TCU? GTFO.

This is an island of reason in a sea of delusion.


Offline michigancat

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Re: Re: Once again: What is the minimum expectations of K-State Basketball?
« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2012, 11:58:04 AM »
I'm making this post primarily based on facilities, program interest, program history, etc.

We should not expect to consistently do better in a 5-10 year period than these Big 12 schools:

Texas
KU

We should be about on par with or slightly better than these schools in said 5-10 year period:

West Virginia
Oklahoma State (once they get their crap together they'll be a consistent power with their facilities)

Schools we should always be better than:

Oklahoma does not give a single flying crap about basketball and hasn't since the 1980's. Baylor will fall off when the NCAA finally nails Scott Drew. Istate0, Texas Tech, TCU? GTFO.

That's a pretty good standard. I would move isu and ou up a line, though.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Once again: What is the minimum expectations of K-State Basketball?
« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2012, 12:04:43 PM »
42's standard is Top 5 every year . . . massive difference from me . . . HUGE.


Offline p1k3

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Re: Once again: What is the minimum expectations of K-State Basketball?
« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2012, 12:05:30 PM »
Seems like we have had more success than Texas in the last 5 years. No reason to think we couldn't out succeed them for the next 5

Offline 0.42

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Re: Once again: What is the minimum expectations of K-State Basketball?
« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2012, 12:12:31 PM »
42's standard is Top 5 every year . . . massive difference from me . . . HUGE.

That's the absolute bare minimum. I should've put in a caveat that the occasional stab (once every 2-3 years) into the Top 3 should also be expected of any coach that's here. Any year that's below the Top 5 should immediately put whoever is coaching us on notice and make their seat get hot very, very quickly.

I also didn't put anything about the NCAA's just because I was comparing us to other programs. We should make the NCAA tournament every year, no excuses. An NIT bid--barring extenuating circumstances like a new coach taking over the program from a coach that's driven KSU into the ground--is just plain unacceptable.

Seems like we have had more success than Texas in the last 5 years. No reason to think we couldn't out succeed them for the next 5

That's because Rick Barnes can be almost as bad of an X's and O's coach as Scott Drew. You get someone who can recruit like Barnes but can also manage a team at UT and they're a Top 2 mainstay almost every year. We'll never be able to consistently say we should beat finish above Texas every year given their infrastructure unless it's neglected to Oklahoma-like levels (i.e. they go back to the UT basketball program of the 1990's)
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 12:19:08 PM by 42 »

Offline 0.42

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Re: Re: Once again: What is the minimum expectations of K-State Basketball?
« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2012, 12:15:55 PM »
I'm making this post primarily based on facilities, program interest, program history, etc.

We should not expect to consistently do better in a 5-10 year period than these Big 12 schools:

Texas
KU

We should be about on par with or slightly better than these schools in said 5-10 year period:

West Virginia
Oklahoma State (once they get their crap together they'll be a consistent power with their facilities)

Schools we should always be better than:

Oklahoma does not give a single flying crap about basketball and hasn't since the 1980's. Baylor will fall off when the NCAA finally nails Scott Drew. Istate0, Texas Tech, TCU? GTFO.

That's a pretty good standard. I would move isu and ou up a line, though.

I don't see ISU and OU as on the same level as WVU and OSU. They're definitely a step above the really crap programs, though. Maybe a new category like "we should expect to be better than these teams most of the time" would be good for ISU and OU, while finishing below BU (sans Drew), TTU, and TCU should be considered fireable offenses unless one of them has a really good fluke year.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 12:20:40 PM by 42 »

Offline fun muffin

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Re: Once again: What is the minimum expectations of K-State Basketball?
« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2012, 12:37:26 PM »
Minimum expectations should be 1 tournament every 3 three years.   Maybe 2 out of every 4 years. 

Offline ChiComCat

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Re: Once again: What is the minimum expectations of K-State Basketball?
« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2012, 12:40:23 PM »
Minimum expectations should be 1 tournament every 3 three years.   Maybe 2 out of every 4 years. 

You must love Weber

Offline Cartierfor3

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Re: Once again: What is the minimum expectations of K-State Basketball?
« Reply #40 on: August 18, 2012, 12:42:03 PM »
Fun Muffin is focusing on the word minimum.  I'm not entirely sure some of you understand that word. 

Offline ChiComCat

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Re: Once again: What is the minimum expectations of K-State Basketball?
« Reply #41 on: August 18, 2012, 12:44:17 PM »
Fun Muffin can focus on whatever word he wants.  I expect more than a tourney appearance once every 3 years and people with that expectation will keep Weber here forever.

Offline Tobias

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Re: Once again: What is the minimum expectations of K-State Basketball?
« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2012, 12:47:30 PM »
Fun Muffin can focus on whatever word he wants.  I expect more than a tourney appearance once every 3 years and people with that expectation will keep Weber here forever.

Offline Cartierfor3

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Re: Once again: What is the minimum expectations of K-State Basketball?
« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2012, 12:51:19 PM »
Well Tobias and Chicat, what are your minimum expectations?  Lowest a coach could achieve and not get fired basically. 

Mine are in line with 42, I'd add tourney more years than not, and a tourney run of sweet sixteen or better 2 times in 10 years. 

Offline Paul Moscow

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Re: Once again: What is the minimum expectations of K-State Basketball?
« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2012, 01:17:21 PM »
42's standard is Top 5 every year . . . massive difference from me . . . HUGE.

Where did anyone say that individual expectation was too much? It was your expectations in sum that people have issue with.

Offline sys

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Re: Once again: What is the minimum expectations of K-State Basketball?
« Reply #45 on: August 18, 2012, 01:51:23 PM »
everyone trying to reason down dax's list is almost funnier than the original dax list.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Once again: What is the minimum expectations of K-State Basketball?
« Reply #46 on: August 18, 2012, 02:01:06 PM »
everyone trying to reason down dax's list is almost funnier than the original dax list.

Not nearly as funny as Sys:  Torch Bearer for a bygone regime


Offline 0.42

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Re: Once again: What is the minimum expectations of K-State Basketball?
« Reply #47 on: August 18, 2012, 02:45:15 PM »
I would love to see our program get to the point where dax's standards are absolutely in line with what our program should be achieving at a bare minimum. But I think we'd need a Final Four appearance or a Big 12 title before dax's standards can become the minimum expectation. Right now, we're an upper level Big 12 basketball program that should regularly be in the NCAA tournament, and the potential is there to become a contender, but right now we still have some major barriers in the way, both immediate and long term (practice facility isn't finished, overbearing AD, "can't recruit to Manhattan" meme). We have to overcome those before we can put some distance between us and WVU/OSU and permanently leave ISU and OU in the rear view mirror.

UT and especially KU far and away have a better infrastructure than us to get the best players and either program would need a catastrophic blow to get knocked off of the mountain. The practice facility will put us at the upper end of the Big 12 spectrum in basketball facilities, and if the Bram locker rooms and such can get renovated, then we'll be at the elite level in basketball facilities compared to the rest of the country. The bball practice facility will put us on par with OSU and WVU in terms of program infrastructure, they are/will be our peers for program strength and recruiting. OSU smashed their "can't recruit to Stillwater" meme years ago thanks to T. Boone, and we can do the same IF we finally start dumping some money into the program. We also have an advantage over OSU and WVU: an in-town airport that's reasonably easy to fly into. 

If we get the right coach (i.e. not oscar or Frank) who can recruit their ass off and an athletic director who won't micromanage said coach to death, the potential is in place to start competing regularly with KU and Texas for the occasional conference title. If Texas hires someone terrible and/or KU loses Bill Self to the Spurs, the potential is in place for KSU to displace them in the elite tier of Big 12 basketball. But all of these things have to occur in a perfect storm of momentum for us, and how likely is that to happen within the next 5 years? Currie and oscar would have to leave, and we'd have to hire an outstanding AD and a competent basketball coach to turn around what might be a moribund program by 2015. The AD position is more important right now, because we won't get a good coach until we get an AD who is willing to open the purse strings and give them the support they need to make gains in the Big 12 arms race (as well as look the other way when necessary). Until we get to that point, the best we can reasonably hope to do is keep ISU and OU at bay, wait for the axe to drop on Baylor, and try and jostle with WVU and OSU for the 3-5 spots in most years, the occasional stab at a top 2 finish or rebuilding year aside.

Honestly, most of the other Big 12 programs probably see us at 6th or even 7th on the program totem pole now that we've hired a proven loser (this year's likely 2nd-4th place finish aside), so I don't think my expectations are that weak. Baylor, ISU, and OU have the potential to pass us while oscar is here (some would argue Baylor already has and will as long as Drew doesn't have a show cause), although Baylor's and ISU's ability to knock us out of the top half of the conference isn't as sustainable as OU's is over an extended period of time.

For what it's worth, I don't think dax's expectations are flagrantly homer-esque on the Big 12 side of things nor massively different from my expectations there, they're just a bit stronger than what I could agree with. Where I mainly disagree with him is his NCAA expectations; there may be years when we're lower than a 9th seed if we finish 5th in the Big 12, and we're not a top 16 program nationally so I don't expect to send up in the Sweet Sixteen every 2 out of 4 appearances. Top 32, sure, but we have a ways to go before making that next step.


tl;dr: Currie and oscar have to go and be replaced by better personnel before dax's minimum expectations can really become reality for  KSU. Until then, we're in the upper half of the Big 12 but not a Top 3 mainstay.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 02:54:57 PM by 42 »

Offline sys

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Re: Once again: What is the minimum expectations of K-State Basketball?
« Reply #48 on: August 18, 2012, 03:01:57 PM »
everyone trying to reason down dax's list is almost funnier than the original dax list.

Not nearly as funny as Sys:  Torch Bearer for a bygone regime

the two are completely correlated.  anyone smart enough to how stupid your list is would weep for the success that we retardedly threw in the sec's trash.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline 0.42

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Re: Once again: What is the minimum expectations of K-State Basketball?
« Reply #49 on: August 18, 2012, 03:03:30 PM »
everyone trying to reason down dax's list is almost funnier than the original dax list.

Not nearly as funny as Sys:  Torch Bearer for a bygone regime

the two are completely correlated.  anyone smart enough to how stupid your list is would weep for the success that we retardedly threw in the sec's trash.

sys, assuming Frank didn't get forced out, do you think that his recruiting was going to be sustainable enough to keep us consistently in the Top 4 of the Big 12 over the next 5-10 years?