Once again: What is the minimum expectations of K-State Basketball?

[sys]

sys, assuming Frank didn't get forced out, do you think that his recruiting was going to be sustainable enough to keep us consistently in the Top 4 of the Big 12 over the next 5-10 years?

i don't know.  top 4 in the big 12 is pretty unrealistic for kstate long-term.  i do know that by far kstate's best chance to stay in that position was to retain martin.  hiring anyone new would have like a 99% probability of less success.

which is why i consider the people angry about hiring weber, rather than failing to retain martin, to be rough ridin' idiots.  my signature says everything there is to say about currie's incompetency.

[0.42]

sys, assuming Frank didn't get forced out, do you think that his recruiting was going to be sustainable enough to keep us consistently in the Top 4 of the Big 12 over the next 5-10 years?

i don't know.  top 4 in the big 12 is pretty unrealistic for kstate long-term.  i do know that by far kstate's best chance to stay in that position was to retain martin.  hiring anyone new would have like a 99% probability of less success.

which is why i consider the people angry about hiring weber, rather than failing to retain martin, to be rough ridin' idiots.  my signature says everything there is to say about currie's incompetency.

I think as long as Currie's here that could be accurate. If we had a better AD though, we could've done better than Frank. It seems like he burned enough bridges in recruiting that we would've experienced a slow decline over time.

I also don't think that 3-4 years of bad Bruceketball will completely destroy our program as long as the proper steps are taken to correct it (see my post above). Basketball programs can be pretty resilient and turn around quickly, especially if the right stuff's in place like the indoor practice facility. That said, if oscar doesn't pull out an amazing 5 year stretch as is likely and we screw up the next hire, then yes, we've just ran aground.

[michigancat]

sys, assuming Frank didn't get forced out, do you think that his recruiting was going to be sustainable enough to keep us consistently in the Top 4 of the Big 12 over the next 5-10 years?

i don't know.  top 4 in the big 12 is pretty unrealistic for kstate long-term.  i do know that by far kstate's best chance to stay in that position was to retain martin.  hiring anyone new would have like a 99% probability of less success.

which is why i consider the people angry about hiring weber, rather than failing to retain martin, to be rough ridin' idiots.  my signature says everything there is to say about currie's incompetency.

I think as long as Currie's here that could be accurate. If we had a better AD though, we could've done better than Frank. It seems like he burned enough bridges in recruiting that we would've experienced a slow decline over time.

You're just believing the dax/currie bullshit. His recruiting was improving, not getting worse.

[8manpick]

Minimum expectations should be 1 tournament every 3 three years.   Maybe 2 out of every 4 years.

Fun Muffin is focusing on the word minimum.  I'm not entirely sure some of you understand that word. 

False.  I would want our coach rough ridin' fired for 1 tournament out of 3 or 2 out of 4.  That is below minimum expectations. 

[0.42]

sys, assuming Frank didn't get forced out, do you think that his recruiting was going to be sustainable enough to keep us consistently in the Top 4 of the Big 12 over the next 5-10 years?

i don't know.  top 4 in the big 12 is pretty unrealistic for kstate long-term.  i do know that by far kstate's best chance to stay in that position was to retain martin.  hiring anyone new would have like a 99% probability of less success.

which is why i consider the people angry about hiring weber, rather than failing to retain martin, to be rough ridin' idiots.  my signature says everything there is to say about currie's incompetency.

I think as long as Currie's here that could be accurate. If we had a better AD though, we could've done better than Frank. It seems like he burned enough bridges in recruiting that we would've experienced a slow decline over time.

You're just believing the dax/currie bullshit. His recruiting was improving, not getting worse.

I was mainly getting that view from what steve dave had been saying and that the DC and MO-KAN pipelines were running dry, not what dax was saying.

[ChiComCat]

I think there were always stories of cracks in Martin's coaching/recruiting and reasons to worry abit.  Everytime the panic started though his teams pulled it back together.  For us to let coaches fail here repeatedly and then to, essentially, justify letting a successful coach leave for fear of him not sustaining success is absolutely ridiculous.

And Cfor3, I posted my expectations earlier.  To not get fired, I expect 2 of the 3 and be reasonably close on the third.  I think my expectations are fair for a team expected to consistently compete in the 15-35 range of CBB.

[michigancat]

I was mainly getting that view from what steve dave had been saying and that the DC and MO-KAN pipelines were running dry, not what dax was saying.

DC had been dried up for several years. The evidence that "MO-KAN was dry" is losing a guy to KU and a guy to Kentucky. And overall, non-DCA recruiting was stronger than ever.

Doesn't really matter though.

[Cartierfor3]

I think there were always stories of cracks in Martin's coaching/recruiting and reasons to worry abit.  Everytime the panic started though his teams pulled it back together.  For us to let coaches fail here repeatedly and then to, essentially, justify letting a successful coach leave for fear of him not sustaining success is absolutely ridiculous.

And Cfor3, I posted my expectations earlier.  To not get fired, I expect 2 of the 3 and be reasonably close on the third.  I think my expectations are fair for a team expected to consistently compete in the 15-35 range of CBB.

2 out of 3 sounds reasonable.  Especially with the tourney being 68

[sys]

DC had been dried up for several years. The evidence that "MO-KAN was dry" is losing a guy to KU and a guy to Kentucky.

just to uk.  i assume you mean ellis with ku, but he hadn't been mo-kan affliated in many years.


people were also talking up the ojeleye situ., but his subsequent lack of interest in kstate, and custer's subsequent interest in south carolina kinda indicates how either irrelevant or incorrect the supposed mokan/martin rift was.

[0.42]

 

guess i need to pay more attention in the recruiting threads then. still think my minimum expectations are pretty reasonable though long term

[Cire]

Minimum should be what frank did. 

[Sandstone Outcropping]

Again, the MINIMUM expectation for K-State and for K-State's coach (whoever it is) to keep their job.

For me:

1.  Top 4 in conference 4 out of every 5 years.

2.  Challange for conference title 1 out of every 4 years. 

3.  Make the NCAA tourney 4 out of every 5 years, never lower than a 9th seed. 

4.  Always winning the 1st round game of every NCAA tourney K-State is in. 

5.  Sweet 16 (at least)- 2 out of every 4 NCAA tourney appearences. 

NONE of that is too much to ask IMO.   There are multiple schools in the Big 12 that are Football-Baseball schools.   It is not unreasonable to ask that K-State basketball stay at the level it is now, and to sustain a constant level of above to well above average success like it had from the 1950's to the late 1980's.    Any period that even approaches the 1990's should be met with termination of coaches and administrators with extreme prejudice.   The BTF eliminates a number of built in excuses.   

Once Phase III of the Football Facilities is complete, there should be an immediate move to have significant upgrades to Bramlage done, with non construction upgrades already completed well before then, i.e new banners, video boards, sound system and ribbon boards in the arena itself.   

There should also be a revenue target of no less than $8.5 million a year from basketball.

You've just described the absolute ceiling for this program, FWIW.

[sonofdaxjones]

Frank Martin's last 2 recruiting classes at K-State:

Freddy Asprilla-FRANKED

Juevol Myles-FRANKED

Shane Southwell-Mediocrity Lives Here

Will Spradling-I Bet Frank regrets that one.

Nino Williams-We'll see I guess

Adrian Diaz-Could be decent

Thomas Gipson-Pretty Good

Jeremy Jones-

Omari Lawrence-Frank hated him

Angel Rodriquez-Probably the Crown Jewel of 2 recruiting classes

James Watson

[mocat]

Frank Martin's last 2 recruiting classes at K-State:

Freddy Asprilla-FRANKED

Juevol Myles-FRANKED

Shane Southwell-Mediocrity Lives Here

Will Spradling-I Bet Frank regrets that one.

Nino Williams-We'll see I guess

Adrian Diaz-Could be decent

Thomas Gipson-Pretty Good

Jeremy Jones-

Omari Lawrence-Frank hated him

Angel Rodriquez-Probably the Crown Jewel of 2 recruiting classes

James Watson

I would have enjoyed RUIII 

Also, Chings, use the last 5 years of data, instead of 10 years, and redo. What you have there is the equivalent of looking at the previous 10 years of KSU football data circa 1994.

[Trim]

= WEBER'D?

[wabash909]

Again, the MINIMUM expectation for K-State and for K-State's coach (whoever it is) to keep their job.

For me:

1.  Top 4 in conference 4 out of every 5 years.

2.  Challange for conference title 1 out of every 4 years. 

3.  Make the NCAA tourney 4 out of every 5 years, never lower than a 9th seed. 

4.  Always winning the 1st round game of every NCAA tourney K-State is in. 

5.  Sweet 16 (at least)- 2 out of every 4 NCAA tourney appearences. 

NONE of that is too much to ask IMO.   There are multiple schools in the Big 12 that are Football-Baseball schools.   It is not unreasonable to ask that K-State basketball stay at the level it is now, and to sustain a constant level of above to well above average success like it had from the 1950's to the late 1980's.    Any period that even approaches the 1990's should be met with termination of coaches and administrators with extreme prejudice.   The BTF eliminates a number of built in excuses.   

Once Phase III of the Football Facilities is complete, there should be an immediate move to have significant upgrades to Bramlage done, with non construction upgrades already completed well before then, i.e new banners, video boards, sound system and ribbon boards in the arena itself.   

There should also be a revenue target of no less than $8.5 million a year from basketball.

You've just described the absolute ceiling for this program, FWIW.

The standard of success is what was defined under Huggins/Martin.  Everything on that list has proven to be attainable.

And if that standard can't be upheld, then that person shouldn't be coaching here.

[Sandstone Outcropping]

Again, the MINIMUM expectation for K-State and for K-State's coach (whoever it is) to keep their job.

For me:

1.  Top 4 in conference 4 out of every 5 years.

2.  Challange for conference title 1 out of every 4 years. 

3.  Make the NCAA tourney 4 out of every 5 years, never lower than a 9th seed. 

4.  Always winning the 1st round game of every NCAA tourney K-State is in. 

5.  Sweet 16 (at least)- 2 out of every 4 NCAA tourney appearences. 

NONE of that is too much to ask IMO.   There are multiple schools in the Big 12 that are Football-Baseball schools.   It is not unreasonable to ask that K-State basketball stay at the level it is now, and to sustain a constant level of above to well above average success like it had from the 1950's to the late 1980's.    Any period that even approaches the 1990's should be met with termination of coaches and administrators with extreme prejudice.   The BTF eliminates a number of built in excuses.   

Once Phase III of the Football Facilities is complete, there should be an immediate move to have significant upgrades to Bramlage done, with non construction upgrades already completed well before then, i.e new banners, video boards, sound system and ribbon boards in the arena itself.   

There should also be a revenue target of no less than $8.5 million a year from basketball.

You've just described the absolute ceiling for this program, FWIW.

The standard of success is what was defined under Huggins/Martin.  Everything on that list has proven to be attainable.

And if that standard can't be upheld, then that person shouldn't be coaching here.

Call me crazy, but I'm pretty certain #5 was not attained in the Hugs/Frank era...

[Skipper44]

Never miss the tournament in back to back seasons and have a winning record in the tournament - everything else will take care of it self

This should be the goal and is attainable for every BCS program that gives a crap about basketball

[catzacker]

I tend to agree with Dax, though I think that the program he describes doesn’t exist long term.  And it doesn’t exist because if you do what he says over the course of 10-15 years, then towards the end of that time, you are no long expecting just that, you are now expecting more because it probably means you’re an elite-ish program.  And if you go along with what everyone else “expects” over the course of 10 years, then you end up just hoping for the tourney once every 3 years because you inevitably begin to slip.   

It’s like, you’re either elite or you’re not.  If aren’t, then you argue over these insignificant/irrelevant “milestones” or whatever, if you are, then you argue over championships. 

[Dr Rick Daris]

my goals-

1)be relevant
2)give me realistic hope that something amazing could happen on occasion (ie-elite 8, winning the conf tourney, beating top 10 team on the road)

[doom]

I just want him to be really nice and instill ks values in our boys.   

[wabash909]

And don't lose to KU twenty straight years on your home court.  That shouldn't happen.

[Ira Hayes]

And don't lose to KU twenty straight years on your home court.  That shouldn't happen.

This.

Dax doesn't want to mention KU, but our goals are driven by their success. 

Beating KU 1/3rd of the time is acceptable.  Nothing else matters.

[Sandstone Outcropping]

And don't lose to KU twenty straight years on your home court.  That shouldn't happen.

This.

Dax doesn't want to mention KU, but our goals are driven by their success. 

Beating KU 1/3rd of the time is acceptable.  Nothing else matters.

Oh boy, oh boy. Would slowly strangle Andre McDonald's baby pit bull puppies with my bare hands for this.

[michigancat]

we don't deserve nice things.