Author Topic: Operation Rescue (Kansas)  (Read 29889 times)

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Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Operation Rescue (Kansas)
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2012, 03:13:57 PM »
I'm treading into this discussion carefully because there have been a billion and a half discussions about this on the internet and they're all awful.  But whatever.  My view on this is probably a bit radical and it's kind of an uncomfortable thing to argue, but logically, it's the only one that makes any kind of sense to me.  I'm going to start off with a couple of basic premises that shouldn't be very contentious. 

First, destroying something that isn't human ("clump of cells") is permissible under any circumstance.  On the other hand, we must agree that killing an innocent, defenseless person under any circumstance is wrong.  All sides should be able to agree with me so far.

With that in mind, I think there is only point worth considering.  All other things, be they horribly tragic like rape or incest (or in the case of the musician in a symphony, as in the philosophical argument), I think are irrelevant.  The only point that matters is when, exactly, it goes from "clump of cells" to "human life."  This is where it gets extremely dicey because we need to determine a precise moment in time, a singular second, before which, terminating the "thing" is completely permissible, and after which is the murder of an innocent human being.

If you believe in morality, or the existence or "right and wrong," that moment is extremely profound.  Again, there must exist a point in time, when one second before, the act is completely morally permissible and one second after is a heinous moral act.   There have been a ton of opinions on when that moment is, but there doesn't seem to be any consensus.  This is why I don't understand the significance of rape or incest.  I recognize that those situations are brutal and awful, but the origin of the human or non-human doesn't really matter.  Either the product of rape or incest is human or it's not.  Either abortion at a singular moment in the pregnancy is wrong, or it is not.  How rape or incest figures into that, other than being extremely tragic, is beyond me.   

At this point, I don't think I've offered any kind of opinion on the subject of whether or not abortion is right or wrong.  I think this is how the argument should be framed. 

Personally, I think it's impossible to determine at which point in time that is. I think the only thing that makes sense to me is conception.  I understand the arguments against it, but haven't found any that were particularly compelling. I think my view is the safest bet.  I mean, we're arguing in a very murky area about whether or not something is murder.  Because here's the deal: either it's murder or it's not and I think it's best to err on the side of caution.

I think it's too gray and I think it's too risky and I think if people believe there are murders against human life being sanctioned by the state that it's a worthy cause for which to fight.  I know I'm going to get shallacked on here for my opinion, but any other opinion I offered would be dishonest.

I respect both sides of this issue, and believe that getting an abortion is morally wrong. I do think they should be legal, however, because of cases like this one. This girl is 10 years old, and going through with this pregnancy, could be potentially life-risking. Do you really want to force this girl to go through with the birth of a baby she had no choice in creating? Sure, there are some people who are just irresponsible and then go get an abortion, but I don't think it's really possible to allow some abortions and not others without getting into government hypocrisy, so I just prefer that they all be legal.

Offline Mr Bread

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Re: Operation Rescue (Kansas)
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2012, 03:40:00 PM »
Question Dlew.  Who should be responsible for the support and rearing of these rape and/or incest babies that we're forcing women to have?  The already victimized mothers?  Society at large?  Some facts to ponder in determining the inviolate sanctity and inherent value of human life:

World Population:   
7,021,836,029 (July 2012 est.)

Birth rate:   
19.14 births/1,000 population
note: this rate results in about 252 worldwide births per minute or 4.2 births every second (2012 est.)
 
Death rate:   
7.99 deaths/1,000 population
note: this rate results in about 107 worldwide deaths per minute or 1.8 deaths every second (July 2012 est.)
 
Population growth rate:   
1.096%
note: this rate results in about 145 net additions to the worldwide population every minute or 2.4 every second (2012 est.)

Point being, there are plenty of us and then some.  I don't see it as an automatic that we need to protect human life at all costs.     

Which brings me to my next question, could you be the one to look the victim of rape and/or incest in the eye and tell her she has to have that "baby" her feelings on the subject (i.e., her carrying, birthing, financially/emotionally supporting the child, etc.) be damned?  "I know it's horribly tragic sweetheart, but it's irrelevant what you feel. Chin up."  :confused:

Not me, friend. 
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Offline nicname

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Re: Operation Rescue (Kansas)
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2012, 03:47:45 PM »
Question Dlew.  Who should be responsible for the support and rearing of these rape and/or incest babies that we're forcing women to have?  The already victimized mothers?  Society at large?  Some facts to ponder in determining the inviolate sanctity and inherent value of human life:

World Population:   
7,021,836,029 (July 2012 est.)

Birth rate:   
19.14 births/1,000 population
note: this rate results in about 252 worldwide births per minute or 4.2 births every second (2012 est.)
 
Death rate:   
7.99 deaths/1,000 population
note: this rate results in about 107 worldwide deaths per minute or 1.8 deaths every second (July 2012 est.)
 
Population growth rate:   
1.096%
note: this rate results in about 145 net additions to the worldwide population every minute or 2.4 every second (2012 est.)

Point being, there are plenty of us and then some.  I don't see it as an automatic that we need to protect human life at all costs.     

Which brings me to my next question, could you be the one to look the victim of rape and/or incest in the eye and tell her she has to have that "baby" her feelings on the subject (i.e., her carrying, birthing, financially/emotionally supporting the child, etc.) be damned?  "I know it's horribly tragic sweetheart, but it's irrelevant what you feel. Chin up."  :confused:

Not me, friend.

Holy crap man, you go from cold and dark heart to a plea to emotions in one post.

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Offline Mr Bread

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Re: Operation Rescue (Kansas)
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2012, 03:55:49 PM »
:dance:
My prescience is fully engorged.  It throbs with righteous accuracy.  I am sated.

Offline HeinBallz

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Re: Operation Rescue (Kansas)
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2012, 03:59:03 PM »
I'm treading into this discussion carefully because there have been a billion and a half discussions about this on the internet and they're all awful.  But whatever.  My view on this is probably a bit radical and it's kind of an uncomfortable thing to argue, but logically, it's the only one that makes any kind of sense to me.  I'm going to start off with a couple of basic premises that shouldn't be very contentious. 

First, destroying something that isn't human ("clump of cells") is permissible under any circumstance.  On the other hand, we must agree that killing an innocent, defenseless person under any circumstance is wrong.  All sides should be able to agree with me so far.

With that in mind, I think there is only point worth considering.  All other things, be they horribly tragic like rape or incest (or in the case of the musician in a symphony, as in the philosophical argument), I think are irrelevant.  The only point that matters is when, exactly, it goes from "clump of cells" to "human life."  This is where it gets extremely dicey because we need to determine a precise moment in time, a singular second, before which, terminating the "thing" is completely permissible, and after which is the murder of an innocent human being.

If you believe in morality, or the existence or "right and wrong," that moment is extremely profound.  Again, there must exist a point in time, when one second before, the act is completely morally permissible and one second after is a heinous moral act.   There have been a ton of opinions on when that moment is, but there doesn't seem to be any consensus.  This is why I don't understand the significance of rape or incest.  I recognize that those situations are brutal and awful, but the origin of the human or non-human doesn't really matter.  Either the product of rape or incest is human or it's not.  Either abortion at a singular moment in the pregnancy is wrong, or it is not.  How rape or incest figures into that, other than being extremely tragic, is beyond me.   

At this point, I don't think I've offered any kind of opinion on the subject of whether or not abortion is right or wrong.  I think this is how the argument should be framed. 

Personally, I think it's impossible to determine at which point in time that is. I think the only thing that makes sense to me is conception.  I understand the arguments against it, but haven't found any that were particularly compelling. I think my view is the safest bet.  I mean, we're arguing in a very murky area about whether or not something is murder.  Because here's the deal: either it's murder or it's not and I think it's best to err on the side of caution.

I think it's too gray and I think it's too risky and I think if people believe there are murders against human life being sanctioned by the state that it's a worthy cause for which to fight.  I know I'm going to get shallacked on here for my opinion, but any other opinion I offered would be dishonest.

Excellent post - I've also been avoiding any serious discussion in this thread, but what the hell - most of you guys hate me here already.  There is such a huge gray area here as all it really comes down to is individual rights.  All humans have the right to live, yet a woman should have the right to not be pregnant, yada yada yada... But there are so many questions.  Would you consider a situation where the unborn fetus is removed from the mother and put into an incubator of sorts?  If it lives - awesome - if not, sorry pro-lifers, natural causes. This probably goes into the "it's not life - it's a parasite" argument - which seems pretty harsh, but I don't know where else to go with it.  I'm along the same lines as you DLew - I just don't think anyone could ever satisfy all arguments about when life becomes life.
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Offline DQ12

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Re: Operation Rescue (Kansas)
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2012, 04:12:45 PM »
Question Dlew.  Who should be responsible for the support and rearing of these rape and/or incest babies that we're forcing women to have?  The already victimized mothers?  Society at large?  Some facts to ponder in determining the inviolate sanctity and inherent value of human life:

World Population:   
7,021,836,029 (July 2012 est.)

Birth rate:   
19.14 births/1,000 population
note: this rate results in about 252 worldwide births per minute or 4.2 births every second (2012 est.)
 
Death rate:   
7.99 deaths/1,000 population
note: this rate results in about 107 worldwide deaths per minute or 1.8 deaths every second (July 2012 est.)
 
Population growth rate:   
1.096%
note: this rate results in about 145 net additions to the worldwide population every minute or 2.4 every second (2012 est.)

Point being, there are plenty of us and then some.  I don't see it as an automatic that we need to protect human life at all costs.     

Which brings me to my next question, could you be the one to look the victim of rape and/or incest in the eye and tell her she has to have that "baby" her feelings on the subject (i.e., her carrying, birthing, financially/emotionally supporting the child, etc.) be damned?  "I know it's horribly tragic sweetheart, but it's irrelevant what you feel. Chin up."  :confused:

Not me, friend.
Perfectly valid questions.  I don't claim to be 100% right on the subject.

I'm going to tackle your post, which really has 3 arguments, one at a time.  The first: who should be responsible for the "babies" (your words, not mine)?  Yes, I think society at large should be responsible, if the mothers are unwilling.  I know it's a strain, but I do think there is inherent value to human life.  If these are "people" (an admittedly debatable label) we're dealing with, then I think it's irresponsible to "kill" them, because the alternative would be a financial strain.  We do not kill foster children, we do not kill all prisoners.  My point is, society does care for human life.  We already carry the burden of the poor, and the elderly, and the sick, and those in prison.  Is it not just as reasonable to care for innocent children (assuming, of course, that they are "humans")?

Regarding your Malthusian argument citing population statistics: I understand.  Abortion certainly helps to control growth which has terrific consequences for the rest of us, the most interesting of which, in my opinion, is the sharp decline in the crime rate, as noted in Freakonomics.  But sheesh, it seems even staunch advocates of abortion would shy away from that argument.  It seems awful nihilistic.

Finally, could I tell the victim of rape they need to have children?  Gosh, I don't know.  It'd be really rough.  I guess I would have to if I really believe in this philosophy, but I'd certainly try to put it a little more delicately than "chin up." 

Further though, I think I may have done a poor job of explaining what I meant.  I don't find the feelings of rape victims irrelevant.  I find them extremely relevant.  My heart goes out to them and I couldn't imagine being in their shoes.  However, I do find their feelings do not constructively contribute to the argument.  Again, my point is, if the "thing" is a "human" we shouldn't kill it, even if the mother has undergone a profound injustice, I think it's wrong to kill an innocent life. 


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

Online john "teach me how to" dougie

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Re: Operation Rescue (Kansas)
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2012, 04:14:50 PM »
I'm treading into this discussion carefully because there have been a billion and a half discussions about this on the internet and they're all awful.  But whatever.  My view on this is probably a bit radical and it's kind of an uncomfortable thing to argue, but logically, it's the only one that makes any kind of sense to me.  I'm going to start off with a couple of basic premises that shouldn't be very contentious. 

First, destroying something that isn't human ("clump of cells") is permissible under any circumstance.  On the other hand, we must agree that killing an innocent, defenseless person under any circumstance is wrong.  All sides should be able to agree with me so far.

With that in mind, I think there is only point worth considering.  All other things, be they horribly tragic like rape or incest (or in the case of the musician in a symphony, as in the philosophical argument), I think are irrelevant.  The only point that matters is when, exactly, it goes from "clump of cells" to "human life."  This is where it gets extremely dicey because we need to determine a precise moment in time, a singular second, before which, terminating the "thing" is completely permissible, and after which is the murder of an innocent human being.

If you believe in morality, or the existence or "right and wrong," that moment is extremely profound.  Again, there must exist a point in time, when one second before, the act is completely morally permissible and one second after is a heinous moral act.   There have been a ton of opinions on when that moment is, but there doesn't seem to be any consensus.  This is why I don't understand the significance of rape or incest.  I recognize that those situations are brutal and awful, but the origin of the human or non-human doesn't really matter.  Either the product of rape or incest is human or it's not.  Either abortion at a singular moment in the pregnancy is wrong, or it is not.  How rape or incest figures into that, other than being extremely tragic, is beyond me.   

At this point, I don't think I've offered any kind of opinion on the subject of whether or not abortion is right or wrong.  I think this is how the argument should be framed. 

Personally, I think it's impossible to determine at which point in time that is. I think the only thing that makes sense to me is conception.  I understand the arguments against it, but haven't found any that were particularly compelling. I think my view is the safest bet.  I mean, we're arguing in a very murky area about whether or not something is murder.  Because here's the deal: either it's murder or it's not and I think it's best to err on the side of caution.

I think it's too gray and I think it's too risky and I think if people believe there are murders against human life being sanctioned by the state that it's a worthy cause for which to fight.  I know I'm going to get shallacked on here for my opinion, but any other opinion I offered would be dishonest.

Excellent post - I've also been avoiding any serious discussion in this thread, but what the hell - most of you guys hate me here already.  There is such a huge gray area here as all it really comes down to is individual rights.  All humans have the right to live, yet a woman should have the right to not be pregnant, yada yada yada... But there are so many questions.  Would you consider a situation where the unborn fetus is removed from the mother and put into an incubator of sorts?  If it lives - awesome - if not, sorry pro-lifers, natural causes. This probably goes into the "it's not life - it's a parasite" argument - which seems pretty harsh, but I don't know where else to go with it.  I'm along the same lines as you DLew - I just don't think anyone could ever satisfy all arguments about when life becomes life.

I say life begins with a heartbeat, just like it ends without one.

Offline PoetWarrior

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Re: Operation Rescue (Kansas)
« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2012, 04:16:03 PM »
A sincere congratulations to Dlew12 for logically thinking, for himself/herself. He/she is also mostly correct.

The only issue is that there is no need to even consider when something has become something else. The fact is, to destroy something, something must first exist. What exists is a human being. Always will be, always has been. If it was not, no one would care to destroy it. The "clump of cells" is destroyed because 10 years from now, it will be a 9 year-old boy or girl. The clock has already started. It has already distinguished itself as a something.

Additionally, in a case like this, doctors should do all all they can to save both the mother and the child. Yes, it stinks that we are in this predicament, but we no longer have a choice (yes, I said that). Everything should be done to protect the health and lives of two unique individuals, as we would in any other case. And after that, there are alternatives (adoption, etc).

Offline mancattanite

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Re: Operation Rescue (Kansas)
« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2012, 04:20:28 PM »
"I support choice."

Says a person whose mother chose to give birth.

"I support life."

Says a person whose taxes go towards killing others.

"We live in a messed up world."

Says a person who is being completely honest.
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Offline PoetWarrior

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Re: Operation Rescue (Kansas)
« Reply #34 on: August 14, 2012, 04:22:25 PM »
"We live in a messed up world."

Says a person who is being completely honest.

Yes. An important point that must be understood.

Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: Operation Rescue (Kansas)
« Reply #35 on: August 14, 2012, 04:29:27 PM »
A sincere congratulations to Dlew12 for logically thinking, for himself/herself. He/she is also mostly correct.

The only issue is that there is no need to even consider when something has become something else. The fact is, to destroy something, something must first exist. What exists is a human being. Always will be, always has been. If it was not, no one would care to destroy it. The "clump of cells" is destroyed because 10 years from now, it will be a 9 year-old boy or girl. The clock has already started. It has already distinguished itself as a something.

Additionally, in a case like this, doctors should do all all they can to save both the mother and the child. Yes, it stinks that we are in this predicament, but we no longer have a choice (yes, I said that). Everything should be done to protect the health and lives of two unique individuals, as we would in any other case. And after that, there are alternatives (adoption, etc).


Interesting opinion and no where near fact.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Operation Rescue (Kansas)
« Reply #36 on: August 14, 2012, 04:43:42 PM »
Dlew, if life begins is conception, then there are more natural abortions than abortions performed by doctors.  ALOT more.

http://discovermagazine.com/2004/may/cover/article_view?b_start:int=2&-C

Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: Operation Rescue (Kansas)
« Reply #37 on: August 14, 2012, 04:47:35 PM »
Dlew, if life begins is conception, then there are more natural abortions than abortions performed by doctors.  ALOT more.

http://discovermagazine.com/2004/may/cover/article_view?b_start:int=2&-C

God performs abortions?   :horrorsurprise:

Why?

Offline DQ12

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Re: Operation Rescue (Kansas)
« Reply #38 on: August 14, 2012, 04:51:25 PM »
Dlew, if life begins is conception, then there are more natural abortions than abortions performed by doctors.  ALOT more.

http://discovermagazine.com/2004/may/cover/article_view?b_start:int=2&-C
What's your point, KK?  I don't think that article necessarily refutes anything I said.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2012, 04:55:59 PM by Dlew12 »


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Offline PoetWarrior

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Re: Operation Rescue (Kansas)
« Reply #39 on: August 14, 2012, 04:53:50 PM »
Interesting opinion and no where near fact.

The only real argument to be had is whether or not it is OK to destroy truly innocent human beings. If you believe it is, then we can begin to discuss. This is where pro-choicers should begin.

The problem is, most would say that it isn't...

Offline PoetWarrior

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Re: Operation Rescue (Kansas)
« Reply #40 on: August 14, 2012, 04:56:23 PM »
Dlew, if life begins is conception, then there are more natural abortions than abortions performed by doctors.  ALOT more.

http://discovermagazine.com/2004/may/cover/article_view?b_start:int=2&-C

This definitely has nothing to do with what I'm talking about, but I can't speak for Dlew12.

"Nonetheless, the high failure rate begs challenging ethical questions. If life begins at conception, as many believe, why are so many lives immediately taken? If, as some ethicists argue, nascent life must be protected, how do we assess the degree of moral entitlement due a nascent entity that fails to pass nature’s own muster perhaps 80 percent of the time?"


Really?
« Last Edit: August 14, 2012, 05:03:01 PM by PoetWarrior »

Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: Operation Rescue (Kansas)
« Reply #41 on: August 14, 2012, 04:59:04 PM »
Interesting opinion and no where near fact.

The only real argument to be had is whether or not it is OK to destroy truly innocent human beings. If you believe it is, then we can begin to discuss. This is where pro-choicers should begin.

The problem is, most would say that it isn't...


Not true.  Unless you believe God frequently and without reason kills truly innocent human beings.  Than we may begin a true discussion.

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Re: Operation Rescue (Kansas)
« Reply #42 on: August 14, 2012, 05:03:27 PM »
Interesting opinion and no where near fact.

The only real argument to be had is whether or not it is OK to destroy truly innocent human beings. If you believe it is, then we can begin to discuss. This is where pro-choicers should begin.

The problem is, most would say that it isn't...


Not true.  Unless you believe God frequently and without reason kills truly innocent human beings.  Than we may begin a true discussion.
For the record, LSOC, I think you were the first person in this thread to reference the existence of God.  I think that, assuming one believes in the existence of morality and the idea that some things are "right" and others are "wrong," (which plenty of athiests would contend is true) an argument against abortion can be made without ever referencing God.


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Re: Operation Rescue (Kansas)
« Reply #43 on: August 14, 2012, 05:11:11 PM »
Interesting opinion and no where near fact.

The only real argument to be had is whether or not it is OK to destroy truly innocent human beings. If you believe it is, then we can begin to discuss. This is where pro-choicers should begin.

The problem is, most would say that it isn't...


Not true.  Unless you believe God frequently and without reason kills truly innocent human beings.  Than we may begin a true discussion.
For the record, LSOC, I think you were the first person in this thread to reference the existence of God.  I think that, assuming one believes in the existence of morality and the idea that some things are "right" and others are "wrong," (which plenty of athiests would contend is true) an argument against abortion can be made without ever referencing God.

I can rephrase.  So nature and or simple fate performs abortions?!  Why?

Offline CNS

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Re: Operation Rescue (Kansas)
« Reply #44 on: August 14, 2012, 05:13:25 PM »
Perhaps women themselves are aborting subconsciously. 

Or perhaps the group of cells are self aborting due to hating each other's faces?


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Re: Operation Rescue (Kansas)
« Reply #45 on: August 14, 2012, 05:15:24 PM »
A sincere congratulations to Dlew12 for logically thinking, for himself/herself. He/she is also mostly correct.

The only issue is that there is no need to even consider when something has become something else. The fact is, to destroy something, something must first exist. What exists is a human being. Always will be, always has been. If it was not, no one would care to destroy it. The "clump of cells" is destroyed because 10 years from now, it will be a 9 year-old boy or girl. The clock has already started. It has already distinguished itself as a something.

Additionally, in a case like this, doctors should do all all they can to save both the mother and the child. Yes, it stinks that we are in this predicament, but we no longer have a choice (yes, I said that). Everything should be done to protect the health and lives of two unique individuals, as we would in any other case. And after that, there are alternatives (adoption, etc).


In the case of rape, which is where the rubber meets the road on this issue in my eyes, where is the "we" in that scenario?  We're not talking about forcing the rape victim to fill out some paper work or to pee in a cup here; we're talking about 9 months of pregnancy and child birth.  Who are you to have a say in that decision?  She no longer has a choice not because reality so dictates, but because of the say so of someone who has no burden to bear once the decision is made, doesn't have to deal with the accompanying physical/emotional/financial fallout, wasn't raped, etc.?  You get to prance off on your moral high horse after you've told all the silly rape victims of the world not only where their priorities should lie, but where they will lie, never having walked in their shoes. 

I just can't wrap my mind around the arrogance of someone who thinks they get the final say over the victim in such cases.  That a belief that we're all unique little snow flakes entitled to life somehow justifies perpetrating what could be a second and more devastating victimization.  The whole human life above all else argument is idealistic to the point of being juvenile. 

For example, consider a Typhoid Mary hypothetical.  We know a child is a carrier of some super pathogen that will result in the deaths of hundreds of other human beings.  The only way to prevent this mass death is the destruction of the child who would have otherwise continued on living a healthy life.  Do we kill it?  One to save hundreds of lives or thousands or millions?  Surely the right of the many to life outweighs the right of the one?  Do we consign them to death to let one innocent live?  Keep in mind "[w]hat can't be done is discuss with someone who is inconsistent in any way. Their philosophy must continue, consistently, to all ends." 

To me there exist considerations that trump innocent human life.  The aforementioned are two of them.  What about you big guy?
My prescience is fully engorged.  It throbs with righteous accuracy.  I am sated.

Offline PoetWarrior

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Re: Operation Rescue (Kansas)
« Reply #46 on: August 14, 2012, 05:17:31 PM »
For the record, LSOC, I think you were the first person in this thread to reference the existence of God.  I think that, assuming one believes in the existence of morality and the idea that some things are "right" and others are "wrong," (which plenty of athiests would contend is true) an argument against abortion can be made without ever referencing God.

He/she doesn't understand what he's/she's talking about. That it would be a second discussion. We can have both. But I can save us time and say that (A.) He can and will do whatever he wants. (B.) But in this case, he is allowing the natural processes of a fallen world to kill people. Just as tornadoes and animals and accidents, kill people. Babies die due to miscarriages, car accidents, abortions, and many other ways. Most of which people mourn and one of which we can easily prevent.

And yes, even an atheist should be able to see most of this logic, but without God, even it breaks down. Like I said earlier, consistency is key.

Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: Operation Rescue (Kansas)
« Reply #47 on: August 14, 2012, 05:19:30 PM »
Perhaps women themselves are aborting subconsciously. 

Or perhaps the group of cells are self aborting due to hating each other's faces?

I think the group of cells will do what other groups of cells will do.  Grow into something else or not.  But they are still just a group of cells.

One person's "natural process" is another's "miracle".

Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: Operation Rescue (Kansas)
« Reply #48 on: August 14, 2012, 05:21:46 PM »
For the record, LSOC, I think you were the first person in this thread to reference the existence of God.  I think that, assuming one believes in the existence of morality and the idea that some things are "right" and others are "wrong," (which plenty of athiests would contend is true) an argument against abortion can be made without ever referencing God.

He/she doesn't understand what he's/she's talking about. That it would be a second discussion. We can have both. But I can save us time and say that (A.) He can and will do whatever he wants. (B.) But in this case, he is allowing the natural processes of a fallen world to kill people. Just as tornadoes and animals and accidents, kill people. Babies die due to miscarriages, car accidents, abortions, and many other ways. Most of which people mourn and one of which we can easily prevent.

And yes, even an atheist should be able to see most of this logic, but without God, even it breaks down. Like I said earlier, consistency is key.


I wish you understood what you were talking about.  It would really help.  But you simply have no understanding so you will never understand.  Then maybe you would be consistent.

Offline bubbles4ksu

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Re: Operation Rescue (Kansas)
« Reply #49 on: August 14, 2012, 05:34:16 PM »
In the case of rape, which is where the rubber meets the road on this issue in my eyes, where is the "we" in that scenario?  We're not talking about forcing the rape victim to fill out some paper work or to pee in a cup here; we're talking about 9 months of pregnancy and child birth.  Who are you to have a say in that decision?  She no longer has a choice not because reality so dictates, but because of the say so of someone who has no burden to bear once the decision is made, doesn't have to deal with the accompanying physical/emotional/financial fallout, wasn't raped, etc.?  You get to prance off on your moral high horse after you've told all the silly rape victims of the world not only where their priorities should lie, but where they will lie, never having walked in their shoes. 

I just can't wrap my mind around the arrogance of someone who thinks they get the final say over the victim in such cases.  That a belief that we're all unique little snow flakes entitled to life somehow justifies perpetrating what could be a second and more devastating victimization.  The whole human life above all else argument is idealistic to the point of being juvenile. 

For example, consider a Typhoid Mary hypothetical.  We know a child is a carrier of some super pathogen that will result in the deaths of hundreds of other human beings.  The only way to prevent this mass death is the destruction of the child who would have otherwise continued on living a healthy life.  Do we kill it?  One to save hundreds of lives or thousands or millions?  Surely the right of the many to life outweighs the right of the one?  Do we consign them to death to let one innocent live?  Keep in mind "[w]hat can't be done is discuss with someone who is inconsistent in any way. Their philosophy must continue, consistently, to all ends." 

To me there exist considerations that trump innocent human life.  The aforementioned are two of them.  What about you big guy?

Outstanding input.