Author Topic: Zimmerman gets a stand-your-ground hearing  (Read 26154 times)

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Offline Emo EMAW

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Re: Zimmerman gets a stand-your-ground hearing
« Reply #50 on: August 10, 2012, 11:22:57 AM »
As far as I'm concerned a 911 dispatcher isn't a rough ridin' cop and I don't have to do what they say, or at least failing to do what they say isn't obstruction.

So because the 911 dispatcher isn't a cop, that makes it OK for GZ to continue to chase TM through the neighboorhood eventhought GZ knows the cops are on their way?  If you aren't going to wait for the cops to show up to do their job, why the even call 911 in the first place?

I'm saying it's not illegal for GZ to not follow the dispatcher's directions.  Or that him ignoring those directions does not by itself nullify the stand-your-ground statute.

Offline HeinBallz

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Re: Zimmerman gets a stand-your-ground hearing
« Reply #51 on: August 10, 2012, 11:23:25 AM »
I didn't realize a trial had taken place where all of these details & personal accounts had been officially brought to light.  All I’ve heard are accounts where TM was walking around a gated community… not his front yard.  I also heard that GZ was following him in his car.   See what I mean when I made this statement:


Who was attacked by who would be the indicator of who I would side with obviously... There's just so many conflicting stories out there, I don't know what to believe.

Yet you've already labeled TM a douchebag and have spent this entire thread defending GZ's right to shoot TM if TM attacked GZ after GZ chased him through the neighboorhood on a dark, rainy night...and started another thread about gun control laws.

If that's all you've heard, you obviously haven't heard the 911 call where GZ told the dispatcher that TM was running away from him and the dispatcher told him to wait for police...yet somehow they crossed paths again later.

You must be new to my posts, I label everyone a douchebag that resorts to violence based off of their paranoia. As for the gun control thread; It's completely unrelated to this discussion. I've been in several threads over the last month discussing gun control with gun control nuts - that thread is an extension of my arguments.
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Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Zimmerman gets a stand-your-ground hearing
« Reply #52 on: August 10, 2012, 11:27:52 AM »
If some stranger is walking around on my property in the middle of a rainy night, I definitely have the right to judge him, especially if he is armed.

Well now you're just throwing hypothetical situations out there to make my argument void. 
Hey everyone!  Heinballs says that if a dude wearing a jason mask and carrying a big machete is following you in your house, you can't kick his ass until he tries to kill you.   What a douchbag, amirite?

FTR, what you're doing is social engineering.

1. Trayvon did not own the property, but he did live there.

2. It was raining.

Had Trayvon killed GZ, he would have a self defense claim that would stand up under duty to flee laws, not to mention stand your ground.

I'm not so sure.  It takes a lot longer to kill a person by beating them to death than by shooting.  One could argue (and these arguments have been made in Florida in stand-your-ground hearings before) that it would be excessive.

Here's one thing though, wouldn't GZ not qualify for stand-your-ground if the was breaking the law at the time, ala stalking or trespassing?

GZ had a gun. TM had reason to believe that if he stopped beating GZ, he would get shot, and it turns out he was right.

Offline TheHamburglar

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Re: Zimmerman gets a stand-your-ground hearing
« Reply #53 on: August 10, 2012, 11:33:06 AM »
You must be new to my posts, I label everyone a douchebag that resorts to violence based off of their paranoia.

lol at you thinking that someone chasing you through your neighboorhood after you start running on a dark, rainy night might have ill-intentions towards you as "paranoia", especially since you stated earlier that since GZ was chasing TM, TM should have assumed he had a gun.
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Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Zimmerman gets a stand-your-ground hearing
« Reply #54 on: August 10, 2012, 11:38:58 AM »
I think the moral of the story here is that if somebody chases you to your home you should just kill them first and ask questions later. If you don't like the answers to those questions, you can just make up your own story. It's not like the dead guy is going to dispute it.

Offline john "teach me how to" dougie

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Re: Zimmerman gets a stand-your-ground hearing
« Reply #55 on: August 10, 2012, 11:55:51 AM »
OK Unruly, let me get this straight.  You're saying TM knew GZ was following him, asked GZ to stop following him, GZ didn't, so TM jumped GZ.  At this point GZ has the right to pull out his gun and shoot TM because he is being attacked.  TM stood his ground against a man following him because he felt threatened, but because TM stood his ground with his fists, that gives GZ the right to stand his ground with a gun?

If it's within your legal rights to provoke someone to protect themselves (while knowing you are carrying a gun) and then shoot them because of their reaction to you stalking them, then the law is mumped up.

This is Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!).  Your natural response to someone following you is "kick their ass"?  That's mumped up.


Sent from my iPhone using DealWithItBitches.

I would expect that to be that natural response of anybody I chased home and then tried to apprehend.
I haven't heard this before. Link?

http://articles.businessinsider.com/2012-04-12/politics/31330086_1_affidavit-martin-case-police-dispatcher

I'm not defending GZ, but the affidavit doesn't say who started the "struggle". Says he confronted him, but that doesn't mean he touched him or even got within arms length.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Zimmerman gets a stand-your-ground hearing
« Reply #56 on: August 10, 2012, 11:57:46 AM »
OK Unruly, let me get this straight.  You're saying TM knew GZ was following him, asked GZ to stop following him, GZ didn't, so TM jumped GZ.  At this point GZ has the right to pull out his gun and shoot TM because he is being attacked.  TM stood his ground against a man following him because he felt threatened, but because TM stood his ground with his fists, that gives GZ the right to stand his ground with a gun?

If it's within your legal rights to provoke someone to protect themselves (while knowing you are carrying a gun) and then shoot them because of their reaction to you stalking them, then the law is mumped up.

This is Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!).  Your natural response to someone following you is "kick their ass"?  That's mumped up.


Sent from my iPhone using DealWithItBitches.

I would expect that to be that natural response of anybody I chased home and then tried to apprehend.
I haven't heard this before. Link?

http://articles.businessinsider.com/2012-04-12/politics/31330086_1_affidavit-martin-case-police-dispatcher

I'm not defending GZ, but the affidavit doesn't say who started the "struggle". Says he confronted him, but that doesn't mean he touched him or even got within arms length.

He couldn't have gotten punched if he wasn't within arms length.

Offline john "teach me how to" dougie

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Re: Zimmerman gets a stand-your-ground hearing
« Reply #57 on: August 10, 2012, 12:01:14 PM »
OK Unruly, let me get this straight.  You're saying TM knew GZ was following him, asked GZ to stop following him, GZ didn't, so TM jumped GZ.  At this point GZ has the right to pull out his gun and shoot TM because he is being attacked.  TM stood his ground against a man following him because he felt threatened, but because TM stood his ground with his fists, that gives GZ the right to stand his ground with a gun?

If it's within your legal rights to provoke someone to protect themselves (while knowing you are carrying a gun) and then shoot them because of their reaction to you stalking them, then the law is mumped up.

This is Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!).  Your natural response to someone following you is "kick their ass"?  That's mumped up.


Sent from my iPhone using DealWithItBitches.

I would expect that to be that natural response of anybody I chased home and then tried to apprehend.
I haven't heard this before. Link?

http://articles.businessinsider.com/2012-04-12/politics/31330086_1_affidavit-martin-case-police-dispatcher

I'm not defending GZ, but the affidavit doesn't say who started the "struggle". Says he confronted him, but that doesn't mean he touched him or even got within arms length.

He couldn't have gotten punched if he wasn't within arms length.

For all we know, GZ was running from TM at the time. I'm sure this will all come out in the hearing.

Offline HeinBallz

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Re: Zimmerman gets a stand-your-ground hearing
« Reply #58 on: August 10, 2012, 12:21:10 PM »
You must be new to my posts, I label everyone a douchebag that resorts to violence based off of their paranoia.

lol at you thinking that someone chasing you through your neighboorhood after you start running on a dark, rainy night might have ill-intentions towards you as "paranoia", especially since you stated earlier that since GZ was chasing TM, TM should have assumed he had a gun.

You're missing the point here entirely.  Who started the assault?  Chasing / running/ following/ driving after is not assault.  Whoever started the assault is the one acting on their paranoia and is in the wrong.   
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Offline TheHamburglar

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Re: Zimmerman gets a stand-your-ground hearing
« Reply #59 on: August 10, 2012, 12:25:41 PM »
You must be new to my posts, I label everyone a douchebag that resorts to violence based off of their paranoia.

lol at you thinking that someone chasing you through your neighboorhood after you start running on a dark, rainy night might have ill-intentions towards you as "paranoia", especially since you stated earlier that since GZ was chasing TM, TM should have assumed he had a gun.

You're missing the point here entirely.  Who started the assault?  Chasing / running/ following/ driving after is not assault.  Whoever started the assault is the one acting on their paranoia and is in the wrong.

This is laughable.  You're trying to take an absolute statement (one you made up yourself) and apply it to this situation.  Are you saying if someone chased you through your neighboorhood on a dark, rainy night, you are going assume they have good intentions up until the point that their hands/weapons come into physical contact with you?
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Offline 8manpick

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Re: Zimmerman gets a stand-your-ground hearing
« Reply #60 on: August 10, 2012, 12:30:30 PM »
For all we know, GZ was running from TM at the time. I'm sure this will all come out in the hearing.

It won't come out in the hearing, the witness who isn't on trial was shot and killed
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Offline Emo EMAW

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Re: Zimmerman gets a stand-your-ground hearing
« Reply #61 on: August 10, 2012, 12:43:05 PM »
I think the moral of the story here is that if somebody chases you to your home you should just kill them first and ask questions later. If you don't like the answers to those questions, you can just make up your own story. It's not like the dead guy is going to dispute it.

Pretty much.   :thumbs:

Offline HeinBallz

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Re: Zimmerman gets a stand-your-ground hearing
« Reply #62 on: August 10, 2012, 12:50:59 PM »
You must be new to my posts, I label everyone a douchebag that resorts to violence based off of their paranoia.

lol at you thinking that someone chasing you through your neighboorhood after you start running on a dark, rainy night might have ill-intentions towards you as "paranoia", especially since you stated earlier that since GZ was chasing TM, TM should have assumed he had a gun.

You're missing the point here entirely.  Who started the assault?  Chasing / running/ following/ driving after is not assault.  Whoever started the assault is the one acting on their paranoia and is in the wrong.

This is laughable.  You're trying to take an absolute statement (one you made up yourself) and apply it to this situation.  Are you saying if someone chased you through your neighboorhood on a dark, rainy night, you are going assume they have good intentions up until the point that their hands/weapons come into physical contact with you?

1. Assault is defined differently in different states - but typically it deals with imminent intention of doing harm.  Pulling a weapon would suffice.
2. It's already been stated that this case represents 1% of when laws don't work - which I agree that happens - why is it hard to believe that 1% of the time, the guy following you could just be trying to return the wallet you dropped. 

This entire debate reminds me of a study done several years ago where they had children play Grand Theft Auto at different age brackets to see how they played the game.  It was surprising to see the kids roughly 7 & under play the video game in a completely non-violent manner.  Driving around firetrucks/ambulances and generally being decent human beings.   The older kids drove around killing prostitutes and were shocked to know that it was possible to drive around firetrucks and make $$ by putting out fires. 

You're the type of guy that drives around choking out prostitutes - and shocked to see that people might have good intentions.   I'm the guy that knows you like to choke out prostitutes, but also knows some people like to drive around with their fire trucks and put out fires - so I withhold judgement until I'm sure if I need to shoot you in the rough ridin' chest or not.    So until it is evident exactly who initiated the assault, I will withhold judgement on who is legally responsible, but I will immediately judge both of them for being the type of guys that like to drive around & choke out prostitutes.  I should emphasize though that enjoying this behavior is not illegal... the behavior itself is.
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Offline HeinBallz

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Re: Zimmerman gets a stand-your-ground hearing
« Reply #63 on: August 10, 2012, 12:53:42 PM »
and LOL at you for thinking another thread was in any way related to this thread.  If I wanted to talk about gun control in relation to this, I would have posted that video in this thread.   Learn how bbs works, then come back.
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Offline TheHamburglar

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Re: Zimmerman gets a stand-your-ground hearing
« Reply #64 on: August 10, 2012, 01:03:25 PM »
Two responses, still no response to my actual question about if someone was chasing you through your neighboorhood in the dark if you would assume they have good intentions until they phsyically touch you, instead you give some Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) response about GTA and dropped wallets. 
I got a guy on the other line about some white walls

Offline Emo EMAW

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Re: Zimmerman gets a stand-your-ground hearing
« Reply #65 on: August 10, 2012, 01:09:09 PM »
If GZ was giving CPR when the cops showed up does it make him look a lot better?  I think so.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Zimmerman gets a stand-your-ground hearing
« Reply #66 on: August 10, 2012, 01:12:33 PM »
fwiw, I don't think GZ should be convicted of murder, just manslaughter.

Offline Emo EMAW

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Re: Zimmerman gets a stand-your-ground hearing
« Reply #67 on: August 10, 2012, 01:25:34 PM »
fwiw, I don't think GZ should be convicted of murder, just manslaughter.

I think he should be convicted of causing HeizBalls emotional distress.

Offline HeinBallz

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Re: Zimmerman gets a stand-your-ground hearing
« Reply #68 on: August 10, 2012, 01:28:51 PM »
Two responses, still no response to my actual question about if someone was chasing you through your neighboorhood in the dark if you would assume they have good intentions until they phsyically touch you, instead you give some Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) response about GTA and dropped wallets. 
Let me be more straight forward and highlight my answering your question along with an explaining my reasoning through a GTA story that I thought was relevant.

I'm the guy that knows you like to choke out prostitutes, but also knows some people like to drive around with their fire trucks and put out fires - so I withhold judgement until I'm sure if I need to shoot you in the rough ridin' chest or not.   
To summarize... I would probably ask a guy why he was following me before I decided to kick his ass. If he began assault by brandishing a weapon, or physically touching me, I would then kick his ass.   
Good is better than Evil because it's nicer.

Offline HeinBallz

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Re: Zimmerman gets a stand-your-ground hearing
« Reply #69 on: August 10, 2012, 01:33:41 PM »
fwiw, I don't think GZ should be convicted of murder, just manslaughter.

I think he should be convicted of causing HeizBalls emotional distress.

Do I seem distressed?   That's unfortunate you've perceived that.
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Offline Emo EMAW

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Re: Zimmerman gets a stand-your-ground hearing
« Reply #70 on: August 10, 2012, 01:35:50 PM »
fwiw, I don't think GZ should be convicted of murder, just manslaughter.

I think he should be convicted of causing HeizBalls emotional distress.

Do I seem distressed?   That's unfortunate you've perceived that.

I'm mostly sarcastic.  Personally I could given an eff about laws or whatever, I just do what I want according to my own constitution of what's right and wrong.  So I think it's dumb to try to convince others of whatever.  Let dissenters dissent. 

Offline TheHamburglar

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Re: Zimmerman gets a stand-your-ground hearing
« Reply #71 on: August 10, 2012, 01:44:37 PM »
Two responses, still no response to my actual question about if someone was chasing you through your neighboorhood in the dark if you would assume they have good intentions until they phsyically touch you, instead you give some Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) response about GTA and dropped wallets. 
Let me be more straight forward and highlight my answering your question along with an explaining my reasoning through a GTA story that I thought was relevant.

I'm the guy that knows you like to choke out prostitutes, but also knows some people like to drive around with their fire trucks and put out fires - so I withhold judgement until I'm sure if I need to shoot you in the rough ridin' chest or not.   
To summarize... I would probably ask a guy why he was following me before I decided to kick his ass. If he began assault by brandishing a weapon, or physically touching me, I would then kick his ass.

Good luck with stopping, turning around, and asking "why are you chasing me?" when they catch up to you.  You take your chance that the crazy guy has good intentions and is just waiting until he catches you to tell you that you dropped your wallet instead of yelling it at you while he chases you.  No reasonable person chases someone around the neighboorhood in the dark without identifiying themselves.  If someone is chasing me in the dark and catches up, I'm turning around swinging.  If he yells out a reasonable answer as to why he was chasing me at any point, like "I'm neighboorhood watch", I'll stop.  (It should be noted that no where in anything about the TM case has GZ said that anytime during the incident he identified himself as neighboorhood watch.)
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Offline HeinBallz

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Re: Zimmerman gets a stand-your-ground hearing
« Reply #72 on: August 10, 2012, 02:46:26 PM »
I'm done with this.   You're clearly trying to paint me as something I'm not.   FTR, you've revealed yourself as someone that is no different than TM or GZ as you've illustrated your ability to cast judgements and assertions based off of your vague and unclear perceptions.  I'll maintain that you shouldn't judge a person based off misconstrued sinister actions when they could be completely innocent in nature - something each party was guilty of.  Maybe GZ was running up to ask him what TM was doing - you don't know - there has been no trial.   At the end of the day, an innocent kid is dead. - It's sad - but innocent people die all the time.  Where is the heartfelt sorrow & bickering/anger/outrage at the thousands of people that die every day?  Why has this one become such a big deal? 
Good is better than Evil because it's nicer.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Zimmerman gets a stand-your-ground hearing
« Reply #73 on: August 10, 2012, 02:56:03 PM »
Why has this one become such a big deal?

This one became a big deal because the local police and DA decided that GZ was innocent without even trying him. Had GZ been arrested and tried before the media outcry led to federal involvement, nobody would know anything about this case.

Offline TheHamburglar

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Re: Zimmerman gets a stand-your-ground hearing
« Reply #74 on: August 10, 2012, 03:06:16 PM »
I'm done with this.   You're clearly trying to paint me as something I'm not.   FTR, you've revealed yourself as someone that is no different than TM or GZ as you've illustrated your ability to cast judgements and assertions based off of your vague and unclear perceptions.  I'll maintain that you shouldn't judge a person based off misconstrued sinister actions when they could be completely innocent in nature - something each party was guilty of.  Maybe GZ was running up to ask him what TM was doing - you don't know - there has been no trial.   At the end of the day, an innocent kid is dead. - It's sad - but innocent people die all the time.  Where is the heartfelt sorrow & bickering/anger/outrage at the thousands of people that die every day?  Why has this one become such a big deal?

What do you think I'm trying to paint you as?  I'm not trying to paint you as anything.  What I am doing is attacking you for calling TM a douchebag for defending himself because he was being chased in the dark by someone who didn't identify themself and trying to put him in the same boat as the guy who had a 60+pound advantage and still felt the need to shoot him in the chest, eventhough there was enough separation between the two he got off a clean shot to the chest.  I have no idea how you can say "I'm no different than TM" and mean that as an insult. 


You keep defending GZ by saying we don't have the facts because their hasn't been a trial, but you keep damning TM...but hey, keep attacking me for passing judgement GZ, you clearly haven't on TM
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 03:12:24 PM by TheHamburglar »
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