Author Topic: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan  (Read 18455 times)

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Offline 3maw

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Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« on: June 05, 2012, 03:09:32 PM »
I feel this issue is overlooked. Sorry if this is buried in another thread somewhere, I just wanted to hear thoughts on it. Romney's view is to heavily encourage the private sector to increase admissions to private education.

Does anyone else see this as a threat to many things?

1. Definitely stratifies the classes even more.
2. Does not assuredly decrease federal spending on education - plan is to subsidize the cost.
3. Helps some excel farther than they would in public ed, but on the flip side, potentially holds down talent in lower SES areas.
4. State Universities, such as our elite home, could see a drop in admissions, as people flock to "better" privates schools, "better" out of state uni's.
5. Grounds for admissions to universities will have to be redrawn, as there won't be a uniform standard of achievement beyond the ACT/SAT, rather individual schools will have their own means of assessment which could vary greatly.
6. has the same penalties on schools and teachers as no child left behind, but with less of the few positives there were with NCLB.

And some other frustrations with Romney's plans.
I. New teachers will not have to take state certification exams, essentially anyone with a degree in anything can teach anything.
II. He believes class size doesn't matter, that if one teacher is teaching 15 kids, or if their teaching 40 kids, that both groups should achieve marks at the same level.
III. Has stated he will pull federal aid for universities.

Not saying I'm voting either way - there are certainly things from pres. Obama that i disagree with, i just wanted to see how other rational folk felt about education.


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Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2012, 03:13:44 PM »
I'm a firm believer that private schools only outperform public schools because they only have kids with parents who value education enough to pay for the private schooling. Sending your kid to a private school and expecting better results than what you would get at a public school just seems silly to me.

Offline steve dave

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2012, 03:25:34 PM »
most private schools have shittier teachers than public schools.  primarily because they pay less. 

Offline CNS

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2012, 03:34:50 PM »
Yeah, teacher pay and class size are the two primary issues that need to be addressed.

Both would go a long way to take care of the rest.

Offline john "teach me how to" dougie

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2012, 04:28:47 PM »
I say we throw more money at the failing public schools and everything will be better. It's what we've been doing for the last 40 years and kids are much better prepared for college than they were before the Dept of Education was formed. I don't think $600,000,000,000 per year is enough.

Offline CNS

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2012, 04:32:02 PM »
Your a free market guy.

What happens when a job that used to pay $40k per year starts paying $80k per year?

Also, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to understand that one person conveying info to 15 people is more effective than one person conveying info to 30 people.

I am not saying throw money at the problem, because there are a lot of other items in a school's budget.  However, if you want to solve the education quality problem, the above two things are the most effective variables to control.

Offline HeinBallz

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2012, 04:38:18 PM »
Curriculum's & programs like no child left behind are already causing a huge problem - Big government meddling with private education isn't going to help anyone out. 

Class sizes are the biggest problem  - kids perform better with 1 on 1 time and personalized curriculum.  Something impossible to do with a class of over 15 kids.  I'm a believer in the difference between a well performing student & a non performing student depends entirely on parent participation and students willingness to learn - which is why no child left behind is a gigantic pile of horse crap.  Some kids just don't care.  Kids will learn what they're motivated to learn and telling teachers "we're going to lose funding if your class doesn't hit X number of passing grades on this standardized test" isn't going to help motivate kids to learn.

But another big problem is teachers not having the freedom to teach in their own way - their constantly changing their methods to fit the new trendy way, because research has shown it helps inner city Chicago kids pass tests, etc. etc. 

But I'm not the person that can really yank intellectually on the subject - as my wife is the one that's spent more time & energy on this subject through 4 years of elementary education, 4 years teaching experience and the past few working on her Reading Specialist masters.  I'll see if Ms. Heinballz will log on here and give her opinion.

This issue is extremely important to me however.  We're currently looking at some montessori schools and homeschooling until we figure out what to do.  We both feel that public education is a lost cause and got sick of watching our kid go to school eager to learn only to come home frustrated that he spent all day doing worksheets in kindergarten on telling time & learning patterns like "dime, dime, nickel - dime, dime, nickel - dime, dime, _______"  when he'd rather be learning chemistry, geology & rocket rocket propulsion.   He was turning into a kid that just didn't give a crap about learning... In kindergarten.  What has the public education system come to when a kindergarten kid comes home burnt out on learning and has a bag full of pointless homework that if he doesn't do, he'll be held in from recess. 
« Last Edit: June 05, 2012, 04:40:38 PM by HeinBallz »
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Offline CNS

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2012, 04:45:25 PM »
I would also like to say that, imo, if this is a throw-money-at-it problem, then so be it.  It is that important.  Much more so than any other issue including foreign affairs, defense, intelligence, healthcare, unemployment, or any other recent hot button issue.  If we fail on the ed side, we will fail everywhere.

Offline AbeFroman

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2012, 05:00:07 PM »
Parents. It all starts with the parents. My mom is a teacher and she says it's harder to get parents to take a role in their kid's educations than it is to manage 25 kids. The stories I've heard are ridiculous. If the parents don't care, by the time the kids are getting ready for junior high they stop caring too.

Offline john "teach me how to" dougie

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2012, 05:09:49 PM »
Schools need to be administered, accredited, and paid for at the county or state level with their own set of requirements.

I would also like to say that, imo, if this is a throw-money-at-it problem, then so be it.  It is that important.  Much more so than any other issue including foreign affairs, defense, intelligence, healthcare, unemployment, or any other recent hot button issue.  If we fail on the ed side, we will fail everywhere.

Have you ever heard the phrase "throwing good money after bad"?

If it is so important, don't you think getting rid of bad teachers would be the first place to start? Or are unions more important?

Offline CNS

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2012, 05:24:02 PM »
I full agree about bad teachers.  That was my point about raising pay.  An $80k yr job attracts a lot of very qualified workers who work hard to keep that job.  A $30k starting salary attracts candidates who want to be finished for the day at 3:30pm and get summers off.

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Offline CNS

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2012, 05:25:30 PM »
The local level simply won't work unless you want to create 3rd world conditions in much of the heartland.

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Offline john "teach me how to" dougie

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2012, 05:50:41 PM »
I full agree about bad teachers.  That was my point about raising pay.  An $80k yr job attracts a lot of very qualified workers who work hard to keep that job.  A $30k starting salary attracts candidates who want to be finished for the day at 3:30pm and get summers off.

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I don't really see a problem with teachers starting at $30K for a 24 year old. If they are driven and enjoy teaching, having a performance based salary should allow for pretty quick increase. An employer matched 401K could also be a good incentive.

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2012, 05:52:38 PM »

Offline HeinBallz

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Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2012, 06:15:04 PM »
I full agree about bad teachers.  That was my point about raising pay.  An $80k yr job attracts a lot of very qualified workers who work hard to keep that job.  A $30k starting salary attracts candidates who want to be finished for the day at 3:30pm and get summers off.

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I don't really see a problem with teachers starting at $30K for a 24 year old. If they are driven and enjoy teaching, having a performance based salary should allow for pretty quick increase. An employer matched 401K could also be a good incentive.

But eff all the kids in the classes of those teachers 1st & 2nd years of learning how to be a teacher - which is a fairly large amount of kids considering the flame out teachers who quit early in their careers.  Quality educators can make more money in their first 5 years with less standards running a day care with only 5 kids. Fact.


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Offline CNS

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Re: Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2012, 06:27:56 PM »
I full agree about bad teachers.  That was my point about raising pay.  An $80k yr job attracts a lot of very qualified workers who work hard to keep that job.  A $30k starting salary attracts candidates who want to be finished for the day at 3:30pm and get summers off.

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I don't really see a problem with teachers starting at $30K for a 24 year old. If they are driven and enjoy teaching, having a performance based salary should allow for pretty quick increase. An employer matched 401K could also be a good incentive.

You want results but don't want to pay for them.  You don't want mediocre and lazy, but you want pay to remain at a level that makes summers necessary for secondary jobs to support families.  If I worked yr round in HS as an untrained laborer/ carpenter on residential jobs, I would have made more at 16 than a fully trained and certified teacher in charge of an entire classroom.

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2012, 06:43:01 PM »
i love that anytime education is brought up, the right's first cry is "bad, lazy teachers", as though it's an epidemic.
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Offline p1k3

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2012, 08:11:59 PM »
i love that anytime education is brought up, the right's first cry is "bad, lazy teachers", as though it's an epidemic.

It is an epidemic. I can think of plenty of shitty teachers I've had over the years. It should be no surprise that there are horrible teachers everywhere when they have no accountability and cant get fired because they are protected by unions. Hell, the only way to fire a teacher is if he/she fucks one of their students.

People suck at their jobs in every industry, and to say that isnt the case  in education is incredibly naive. 

« Last Edit: June 05, 2012, 08:17:40 PM by p1k3 »

Offline Mrs. Heinballz

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2012, 08:34:44 PM »
"Romney's view is to heavily encourage the private sector to increase admissions to private education."

I'd love have encouragement to choose where to educate my kids and since we homeschool it'd be awesome to get money for that or  to send our kids to a Montessori school.  We pay the same taxes and it'd be nice to reap some of the benefits in the education we choose.  There's a catch though.  I learned, through experience, that when people give you money they start to think they have a say in where and how you spend it.  Since we are trying to escape from endless testing and negative judgements on our kids based on if their views and behavior lead to an effecient classroom, the government getting involved makes me nervous.

In our current system, NCLB brings higher standards but does not provide more professional development opportunities for the teachers.  That is like giving kids with shitty teachers more negative consequences for scoring low and expecting they will magically get smarter.  It has brought up test scores and has probably been enough of stinger to help some teachers up their game, but I think the main reason is that they are figuring out the tests and teaching directly to them and cutting out anything not seen as important such as art, science and social studies.  This type of fear based motivating can only do so much and spreads the fear and stress of the teachers to the kids.  If we "throw more money" at this problem schools are just going to do more of the same. 

I think a major paradigm shift is needed.  Lay off the conformity and systematic teaching.  Kids are individuals, just like adults!!  They learn in different ways, at different TIMES!  If we could see the whole person and honor what they care about and are good at, while encouraging them in other skills at their own pace, we might start to see kids that are confident critical thinkers and retain the information they learn.  This might mean that kids (GASP) don't learn to read and do more difficult arithematic in Kindergarten or even first grade.  They might actually gain an appreciation and understanding first and then learn the skills!  Just because we figured out that we can cram certain skills down kids throats at earlier ages doesn't mean that's the best method.

I agree with seven that everyone loves to blame "bad, lazy teachers", but when you're only a part of a broken system there is only so much you can do. Of course, some teachers are amazing and can makes a difference despite the cards stacked against them, but imagine what they could do in an environment that is condusive to everyone learning.

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Offline HeinBallz

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Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2012, 08:52:24 PM »
i love that anytime education is brought up, the right's first cry is "bad, lazy teachers", as though it's an epidemic.

It is an epidemic. I can think of plenty of shitty teachers I've had over the years. It should be no surprise that there are horrible teachers everywhere when they have no accountability and cant get fired because they are protected by unions. Hell, the only way to fire a teacher is if he/she fucks one of their students.

People suck at their jobs in every industry, and to say that isnt the case  in education is incredibly naive.

I see you also watched "waiting for superman" - teachers are held accountable by parents and believe it or not kids.  I've never seen anyone talk attrition rates when talking to this topic; and teachers quit for several reasons.  Among these things are pay/pressure/or general dissatisfaction with the whole system.  Are they a shitty teacher when their hands are tied to teaching to kids with methods they don't agree with?  Educators are expected to be this mythological conveyer of knowledge using tactics of repetition/beating info into their brains and when they fail - its the teachers fault.  Can there really be a bad teacher when the curriculum is founded around having a person "preach" info to the masses?  Why not just a tape recorder?  No - don't talk to me about shitty teachers until we put them in situations where they're doing more than being a speaker in a lecture based environment - followed by a standard worksheet.


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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2012, 09:00:44 PM »
i love that anytime education is brought up, the right's first cry is "bad, lazy teachers", as though it's an epidemic.

It is an epidemic. I can think of plenty of shitty teachers I've had over the years. It should be no surprise that there are horrible teachers everywhere when they have no accountability and cant get fired because they are protected by unions. Hell, the only way to fire a teacher is if he/she fucks one of their students.

People suck at their jobs in every industry, and to say that isnt the case  in education is incredibly naive.

I have a feeling you were just a shitty student.
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline p1k3

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2012, 09:10:11 PM »
i love that anytime education is brought up, the right's first cry is "bad, lazy teachers", as though it's an epidemic.

It is an epidemic. I can think of plenty of shitty teachers I've had over the years. It should be no surprise that there are horrible teachers everywhere when they have no accountability and cant get fired because they are protected by unions. Hell, the only way to fire a teacher is if he/she fucks one of their students.

People suck at their jobs in every industry, and to say that isnt the case  in education is incredibly naive.

I see you also watched "waiting for superman" - teachers are held accountable by parents and believe it or not kids.  I've never seen anyone talk attrition rates when talking to this topic; and teachers quit for several reasons.  Among these things are pay/pressure/or general dissatisfaction with the whole system.  Are they a shitty teacher when their hands are tied to teaching to kids with methods they don't agree with?  Educators are expected to be this mythological conveyer of knowledge using tactics of repetition/beating info into their brains and when they fail - its the teachers fault.  Can there really be a bad teacher when the curriculum is founded around having a person "preach" info to the masses?  Why not just a tape recorder?  No - don't talk to me about shitty teachers until we put them in situations where they're doing more than being a speaker in a lecture based environment - followed by a standard worksheet.


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Actually I have no idea what you're talking about in regards to superman. Agree with everything you said though. In high school I worked for a small business (restaurant) owned by a former teacher from Wisconsin and his wife. He liked teaching and everything but he had no freedom to teach his own methods and eventually became fed up with the system and the unions so they started a business in KC of all places.

i love that anytime education is brought up, the right's first cry is "bad, lazy teachers", as though it's an epidemic.

It is an epidemic. I can think of plenty of shitty teachers I've had over the years. It should be no surprise that there are horrible teachers everywhere when they have no accountability and cant get fired because they are protected by unions. Hell, the only way to fire a teacher is if he/she fucks one of their students.

People suck at their jobs in every industry, and to say that isnt the case  in education is incredibly naive.

I have a feeling you were just a shitty student.

I'll admit I was never a great student by any stretch but there were much, much worse students than me.

Offline john "teach me how to" dougie

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2012, 09:10:40 PM »
Excellent post Mrs Hbz.


Offline sys

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Re: Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2012, 10:13:18 PM »
We pay the same taxes and it'd be nice to reap some of the benefits in the education we choose. 

i'd like my no child refund.
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Offline HeinBallz

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Privatizing Education/Romney's plan
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2012, 10:27:03 PM »
We pay the same taxes and it'd be nice to reap some of the benefits in the education we choose. 

i'd like my no child refund.

:thumbs:

In our world, you wouldn't even pay in to begin with.

Back to the original series of questions though - this seems like a situation of "well, government mumped up public education, let's make private education an option for everyone!" - just seems completely ridiculous to me.  If your goal is better education, fix public education - that's what you're in charge of - don't go rough ridin' up the private sector and sell it as "evening the playing field."


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« Last Edit: June 05, 2012, 10:30:19 PM by HeinBallz »
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