Privatizing Education/Romney's plan

[ednksu]

The problem is there are more administrators than teachers.  A subproblem is that there are also more paras than teachers. 

We've managed to turn something as simple as reading, writing, math and science into a bureaucracy that's more political than politics itself.  The entire structure is completely asinine and organized under the guise of "fairness"(at least we know who to blame).

There are not more admins than teachers, the problem is they have more power than teachers could hope for.  There are not more paras than teachers, but people like you don't want to pay fair amount of taxes to support public education so paras are the only option left.

[Rage Against the McKee]

http://www.kansasopengov.org/SchoolDistricts/PayrollListing/OlatheSchoolPayrollList/tabid/1593/Default.aspx


You have to go 17 pages until you get to a page with a majority out classroom teachers on it.

Yeah, school administrators are ridiculously overpaid.

[Stellarcat]

 I am not sure where you are getting the notion that there is a plethora of paras in schools, but there are definitely more now than there were when I started teaching.  However, they are certainly needed, especially when the law states that all children must be educated in the least restrictive environment possible. 

My last year of teaching (2 years ago), I had 22 students in my fifth grade class.  One student was autistic, and he  was on the lower functioning end of the spectrum...very challenging.  Another student was bipolar and oppositional defiant, and he regularly threw things across the room, was violent toward both students and adults, and ran out of the classroom every time he was expected to do work.  I had one para for a limited time each day.  But hey, if my students (including the two mentioned above) didn't pass the state assessments, guess who got the blame?

[Kat Kid]

http://www.kansasopengov.org/SchoolDistricts/PayrollListing/OlatheSchoolPayrollList/tabid/1593/Default.aspx


You have to go 17 pages until you get to a page with a majority out classroom teachers on it.

Yeah, school administrators are ridiculously overpaid.

What are the comps on executives overseeing million dollar budgets, 40-100+staff and also legally liable for hundreds to thousands of customers?  As for central office staff, you probably won't get too many complaints from me on that, but again compliance with state and federal law, preserving funding and getting new revenue streams (grants) for an organization of that size is going to require people.

[CNS]

My main problem with the admin(at least in my wife's district) is that many of them are not good at their job.  I don't think teachers make good admins, but that is who they hire. 

They take people who's experience is dealing with 20-30 10yr olds for the last decade, then put them in charge of 20-30 adults and a medium to large budget/facility.  I don't care what the 4 semesters of Masters class does for them, the leap between the two is extraordinarily drastic and the personality required to be successful at the former is most likely not the right personality to be effective at the later. 

I mean, the way the admins admin is ridic in 80% of the examples I have knowledge of.  Their handling of personnel, the culture they create/maintain, and their decisions overall are insane as often as not. 

When the supt is a former PE, Language, or Science teacher who is managing a hundred teachers and a 15 mill budget, it seems like a recipe for a product that isn't as quality as it should be.  Yet this is normal.

 

[Stellarcat]

My main problem with the admin(at least in my wife's district) is that many of them are not good at their job.  I don't think teachers make good admins, but that is who they hire. 

They take people who's experience is dealing with 20-30 10yr olds for the last decade, then put them in charge of 20-30 adults and a medium to large budget/facility.  I don't care what the 4 semesters of Masters class does for them, the leap between the two is extraordinarily drastic and the personality required to be successful at the former is most likely not the right personality to be effective at the later. 

I mean, the way the admins admin is ridic in 80% of the examples I have knowledge of.  Their handling of personnel, the culture they create/maintain, and their decisions overall are insane as often as not. 

When the supt is a former PE, Language, or Science teacher who is managing a hundred teachers and a 15 mill budget, it seems like a recipe for a product that isn't as quality as it should be.  Yet this is normal.

I had never thought about it that way.  I do think that there has to be some teaching experience required, though, unless every building was required to have a curriculum/instruction person as well. 

I would hate to be a principal, fwiw.  Dealing with crappy parents, meeting AYP, trying to help bad teachers.  Hey, wait!  I already did all of that as a teacher.   

[Rage Against the McKee]

http://www.kansasopengov.org/SchoolDistricts/PayrollListing/OlatheSchoolPayrollList/tabid/1593/Default.aspx


You have to go 17 pages until you get to a page with a majority out classroom teachers on it.

Yeah, school administrators are ridiculously overpaid.

What are the comps on executives overseeing million dollar budgets, 40-100+staff and also legally liable for hundreds to thousands of customers?  As for central office staff, you probably won't get too many complaints from me on that, but again compliance with state and federal law, preserving funding and getting new revenue streams (grants) for an organization of that size is going to require people.

I guess I would say that the problem isn't necessarily the amount of pay that any particular administrator receives, just that there are way too many administrators. CNS Casey made a great point about school districts hiring teachers who have absolutely no administrative experience, and then paying them 6 figures to run the district.

[CNS]

http://www.kansasopengov.org/SchoolDistricts/PayrollListing/OlatheSchoolPayrollList/tabid/1593/Default.aspx


You have to go 17 pages until you get to a page with a majority out classroom teachers on it.

Yeah, school administrators are ridiculously overpaid.

What are the comps on executives overseeing million dollar budgets, 40-100+staff and also legally liable for hundreds to thousands of customers?  As for central office staff, you probably won't get too many complaints from me on that, but again compliance with state and federal law, preserving funding and getting new revenue streams (grants) for an organization of that size is going to require people.

imo, public schools need to up their focus on this.  I mean, my wife's district gets grants, but they are little ones(ex: $500 for 3rd grade technology or $800 for the elementary library), and while every little bit is surely appreciated, they could probs be doing a lot better if they hired the right personnel and turned the heat up.

Have a budget gap?  go market the budget gap to the right audience apply the need to those in the community who are positioned to willingly help out, rather than waiting for someone at the state level to email you about some crap fed grant.  Seriously, my wife is one of the biggest grant getters in her school and the biggest thing they have received in 10 yrs is a grant that gives them some mini laptops in such a quantity that all 4 classes in the grade have to rotate them since there is only enough for one class to use them at a time and even then there are 4 kids per one laptop.

Again, they have ex teachers in these roles.  People who can teach your kids to read but have never had to hustle, market, and push for donations before.

[Rage Against the McKee]

http://www.kansasopengov.org/SchoolDistricts/PayrollListing/OlatheSchoolPayrollList/tabid/1593/Default.aspx


You have to go 17 pages until you get to a page with a majority out classroom teachers on it.

Yeah, school administrators are ridiculously overpaid.

What are the comps on executives overseeing million dollar budgets, 40-100+staff and also legally liable for hundreds to thousands of customers?  As for central office staff, you probably won't get too many complaints from me on that, but again compliance with state and federal law, preserving funding and getting new revenue streams (grants) for an organization of that size is going to require people.

imo, public schools need to up their focus on this.  I mean, my wife's district gets grants, but they are little ones(ex: $500 for 3rd grade technology or $800 for the elementary library), and while every little bit is surely appreciated, they could probs be doing a lot better if they hired the right personnel and turned the heat up.

Have a budget gap?  go market the budget gap to the right audience apply the need to those in the community who are positioned to willingly help out, rather than waiting for someone at the state level to email you about some crap fed grant.  Seriously, my wife is one of the biggest grant getters in her school and the biggest thing they have received in 10 yrs is a grant that gives them some mini laptops in such a quantity that all 4 classes in the grade have to rotate them since there is only enough for one class to use them at a time and even then there are 4 kids per one laptop.

Again, they have ex teachers in these roles.  People who can teach your kids to read but have never had to hustle, market, and push for donations before.

Considering how difficult it is for a school district to get rid of failing personnel, hiring a grant writer is a pretty risky proposition (the risk being that the school district could hire somebody who just isn't good at writing grants). I would assume a good grant writer would cost upwards of $100k, which would totally be worth it if this writer was pulling in ~$300k per year. Are there a lot of big $ grants out there for public school systems? A professional grant writer will not be able to cover their own salary writing grants for less than $1000.

[CNS]

http://www.kansasopengov.org/SchoolDistricts/PayrollListing/OlatheSchoolPayrollList/tabid/1593/Default.aspx


You have to go 17 pages until you get to a page with a majority out classroom teachers on it.

Yeah, school administrators are ridiculously overpaid.

What are the comps on executives overseeing million dollar budgets, 40-100+staff and also legally liable for hundreds to thousands of customers?  As for central office staff, you probably won't get too many complaints from me on that, but again compliance with state and federal law, preserving funding and getting new revenue streams (grants) for an organization of that size is going to require people.

imo, public schools need to up their focus on this.  I mean, my wife's district gets grants, but they are little ones(ex: $500 for 3rd grade technology or $800 for the elementary library), and while every little bit is surely appreciated, they could probs be doing a lot better if they hired the right personnel and turned the heat up.

Have a budget gap?  go market the budget gap to the right audience apply the need to those in the community who are positioned to willingly help out, rather than waiting for someone at the state level to email you about some crap fed grant.  Seriously, my wife is one of the biggest grant getters in her school and the biggest thing they have received in 10 yrs is a grant that gives them some mini laptops in such a quantity that all 4 classes in the grade have to rotate them since there is only enough for one class to use them at a time and even then there are 4 kids per one laptop.

Again, they have ex teachers in these roles.  People who can teach your kids to read but have never had to hustle, market, and push for donations before.

Considering how difficult it is for a school district to get rid of failing personnel, hiring a grant writer is a pretty risky proposition (the risk being that the school district could hire somebody who just isn't good at writing grants). I would assume a good grant writer would cost upwards of $100k, which would totally be worth it if this writer was pulling in ~$300k per year. Are there a lot of big $ grants out there for public school systems? A professional grant writer will not be able to cover their own salary writing grants for less than $1000.

Yeah I don't know about quantity of avail grants.  I was talking about doing more than grant writing.  I was suggesting out right fundraising.

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[LickNeckey]

1. NCLB is not perfect however it has made teachers and schools more aware of struggling populations/students.  This information when used successfully allows teachers to generate programs/curriculum to meet the needs of each student.  This increased individualization has had an impact. 

2. As class sizes have grown and funding has been cut Para's (when used properly) allow for the increased individualization of  instruction.  Good paras represent a great value in education.

3.  The criticism of the size, structure, and pay of Administration doesn't seem to hold up under scrutiny.  First how many corporations/organizations employ management from outside their organization or area of expertise?  If corporations were forced to disclose compensation for management/administration do you think school employees would make more?  Do you think their job is considerably easier?

4. As it relates to finance and oversight I agree that the majority of funding should be done at the state level.  However i fail to see how having a set of nationalized educational goals and objectives is a negative.  Does that mean we need a nationalized curriculum? No.  But establishing a common "finish line makes sense to me.

[CNS]

3.  The criticism of the size, structure, and pay of Administration doesn't seem to hold up under scrutiny.  First how many corporations/organizations employ management from outside their organization or area of expertise?  If corporations were forced to disclose compensation for management/administration do you think school employees would make more?  Do you think their job is considerably easier?

Difference is that the personality and skillset of someone who relates well to a room full of 10yr olds is very often not the right personality and skillset of someone who should be managing a district full of adults.  It's a personality type thing.  The same traits that make a good teacher can actually make you a bad boss. 

[LickNeckey]

Sure there are bad hires but don't you prolly hire someone with sales experience managing sales?

[Stellarcat]

1. NCLB is not perfect however it has made teachers and schools more aware of struggling populations/students.  This information when used successfully allows teachers to generate programs/curriculum to meet the needs of each student.  This increased individualization has had an impact. 

I disagree with this point.   As the proficiency percentages increased, I was less able to create lessons or even supplement the district curriculum.   We spent all day, every day until the end of April cramming test prep into all students' heads, regardless of ability or readiness level.  Once May came around, the whole atmosphere lightened and the kids started to enjoy learning.  We were allowed to do big, cross-curricular projects.  We were allowed to teach social studies and science! 

[CNS]

Sure there are bad hires but don't you prolly hire someone with sales experience managing sales?

I don't think you can generalize and compare education to most of the private industries out there.  I mean, it is somewhat unique due to the level of interaction with children.  I get that experience makes management easier, but I don't think your above example translates ever single time.  I think education may be one of the times that it may not translate. 

I get that there are good admins out there I just don't believe there as many as there should be.

[Rage Against the McKee]

3.  The criticism of the size, structure, and pay of Administration doesn't seem to hold up under scrutiny.  First how many corporations/organizations employ management from outside their organization or area of expertise?  If corporations were forced to disclose compensation for management/administration do you think school employees would make more?  Do you think their job is considerably easier?

I don't think there really is anybody holding the typical school administrator accountable in the way that stockholders hold a corporation's CEO accountable.

[john "teach me how to" dougie]

Comparing any private enterprise to any government department is apple to oranges and should never be done. One is in business to make money for others and one is in business to spend others money.

[Kat Kid]

3.  The criticism of the size, structure, and pay of Administration doesn't seem to hold up under scrutiny.  First how many corporations/organizations employ management from outside their organization or area of expertise?  If corporations were forced to disclose compensation for management/administration do you think school employees would make more?  Do you think their job is considerably easier?

I don't think there really is anybody holding the typical school administrator accountable in the way that stockholders hold a corporation's CEO accountable.

You think stockholders hold corporations CEOs accountable?  LOL

[Kat Kid]

Comparing any private enterprise to any government department is apple to oranges and should never be done. One is in business to make money for others and one is in business to spend others money.

That statement isn't even right on its own stupid logic.

[ben ji]

I would of loved to have been a teacher and thought about it in college but I couldnt get over how little the pay was. That being said I dont think teachers are underpaid. They get summers off, 2 weeks off for christmas, all those random holidays the real world doesnt get off(mlk day, presidents day etc) so it evens out.

If I were to become incredibly rich by the time I'm 45-50 I would probably quit my job and become a teacher. You would still be bringing in some money and would have plenty of time for vacations.

[CNS]

I don't think the time off evens anything out.  So you get a job that is ok with you only being there 2 months.  those don't usually pay well.  So let's say $10/hr.  Over two months you are earning $3400.  That doesn't take an avg teach salary and suddenly make the year's earnings good.  Starting in the $30k's and earning another $3400 still means that you aren't getting paid crap.  Especially considering what society is asking you to do and expecting from you.

[john "teach me how to" dougie]

I would of loved to have been a teacher and thought about it in college but I couldnt get over how little the pay was. That being said I dont think teachers are underpaid. They get summers off, 2 weeks off for christmas, all those random holidays the real world doesnt get off(mlk day, presidents day etc) so it evens out.

If I were to become incredibly rich by the time I'm 45-50 I would probably quit my job and become a teacher. You would still be bringing in some money and would have plenty of time for vacations.

Just move to California. You can be making more than $90,000 with full retirement bennies within 15 years. The state may be broke by then, but its worth a shot.

[Rage Against the McKee]

I would of loved to have been a teacher and thought about it in college but I couldnt get over how little the pay was. That being said I dont think teachers are underpaid. They get summers off, 2 weeks off for christmas, all those random holidays the real world doesnt get off(mlk day, presidents day etc) so it evens out.

If I were to become incredibly rich by the time I'm 45-50 I would probably quit my job and become a teacher. You would still be bringing in some money and would have plenty of time for vacations.

Just move to California. You can be making more than $90,000 with full retirement bennies within 15 years. The state may be broke by then, but its worth a shot.

Does that $90,000 include benefits or is that base salary? Also, what do California teachers start at?

[LickNeckey]

3.  The criticism of the size, structure, and pay of Administration doesn't seem to hold up under scrutiny.  First how many corporations/organizations employ management from outside their organization or area of expertise?  If corporations were forced to disclose compensation for management/administration do you think school employees would make more?  Do you think their job is considerably easier?

I don't think there really is anybody holding the typical school administrator accountable in the way that stockholders hold a corporation's CEO accountable.

Board of Education????

[ednksu]

I would of loved to have been a teacher and thought about it in college but I couldnt get over how little the pay was. That being said I dont think teachers are underpaid. They get summers off, 2 weeks off for christmas, all those random holidays the real world doesnt get off(mlk day, presidents day etc) so it evens out.

If I were to become incredibly rich by the time I'm 45-50 I would probably quit my job and become a teacher. You would still be bringing in some money and would have plenty of time for vacations.

yeah than include continuing ed which is necessary for NCLB, spending more of their own money than any other profession would to make their work places (classrooms) run because people don't want to pay a fair share for taxes to support their schools, regularly spend at least 20% more time than they are contracted doing school duties, or the fact that many other people do get those days off as well and no, teachers are behind the 8 ball.