Hiring Process Discussion with CC

[AbeFroman]

Thecatwhisperer is definitely Currie

[username]

Thank you for being awesome captaincrap.

The rest of you are freaking idiots.

[captaincrap]

CC, I’m going to ask a question and then give my answer in how I perceive it:

Why was oscar Weber the “best” KSU could do?

CZ A:  In part, because every coach in America turned their heads a bit at the idea that Frank Martin left Kansas State (w/ the record he’s had, with the support he’s had, with the new practice facility being built, two years into a new contract, with the team he’s coming back with) to South Carolina (who has never won anything of any substance in its entire history and has been a wasteland for coaches). In part, because John now has a rep amongst coaches of being hard to get along with and with being over-compliant (i.e. wanting a world of black/white and refusing to live in the real, gray world).  In part, because Frank put us in this situation because he’s a maniacal, house burning, crazy, emotional man who was coming close to alienating himself from his team/program.  In part because Currie, from day one, has not found a way to develop a relationship with the best coach KSU has had in 2 decades.     

Your answer?

I don't know why BW was the choice. Never said that he was the best we could do. I said I think the search was fine, it considered lots of options, and BW was the choice. I know of a couple people that said No, but not if there were more or what the reasons were. Coaching searches are weird, and results are never as simple as you think. Lots of back channel convos and feelers that don't progress much.

[SleepFighter]

It sounds like whoever decided to prance him out there without any warning right before the Final Four on little rest should be fired immediately if that's the case.

Seems like most of this thread is CC saying "Yeah, that wasn't handled well" or "Yeah, I don't agree with that"

But the take away is don't try to get the guy responsible for it fired.

Incorrect. Take away is that however angry you are, if you are a K-State fan you should still want K-State basketball to do well and not want the university to be harmed. Reacting in ways that are opposite of that I think are misguided. Channel your anger in directions that can affect change. Root for the people wearing the uniform. Support K-State financially. Realize that the guy in charge has done a lot of good, along with the things you don't like.

John Currie's actions of the last month have delivered the message that Kansas State's leadership does not believe that Kansas State is a first rate institution.  We have seen media people like Goodman, Parrish and Mellinger take that message and run.  Not to even mention the Reiter piece.

Fund raising is great.  Facilities are nice.  But if our own AD can't lure a better candidate than someone who has just been fired, with a losing conference record over the last five years, who completely lost a team that included legitimate NBA talent, what good are those facilities?

If John Currie is going to send the message that Kansas State is not good enough to do better than that, than I am going to send the message to John Currie that he is not good enough for Kansas State.

[Thecatwhisperer]

Both sides are spewing their propaganda but one side remains here at K-State and the other is gone. I'm choosing to support oscar Weber. I've talked with former players who have come back and talked and met with Frank and were very surprised and dissapointed with his arrogance and how he talked about his current players.  Frank was beginning to lose the support of those around him, including his team. That is a fact. He was insecure and acting like a high school coach. His aasistants have little choice but to follow or find themselves unemployed.  I like Brad and wish we could have found a place for him on the staff but if I were him and didnt get the HC job, i wouldnt stick around either. It would just be too awkward. Did our AD do everything in his power to keep Frank? Probably not but if I had an employee who was a superstar media darling who thought he could do anything he wanted and constantly was looking around for other job opportunities and then found one, I would probably do the same.  Currie has a lot of blame in my eyes for not knowing how to handle Frank though.  I'm not sure many people could but that is a part of Currie's job description.  Frank shouldn't have wanted to look around but it's hard to negotiate with someone when they can't control their emotions.

I truly believe our program will be better off next year with Frank gone and Weber here.  Weber is a good coach and we will be more fundamentally sound under his coaching. Despite what people think, I believe we just picked up a very valuable stock that happens to be undervalued at this time. 

You realize Greenawalt, Figger, and Lamont all went to SC before a coach was announced, right? Greenawalt would for sure have a job offer almost anywhere he wanted, and I imagine Figger would have found one without too much trouble.

You realize Frank didn't treat them the way he treated other people around him don't you? I can't read their minds but I have a family to support and if my ability to do so is in question, I'll more than likely go with the sure thing, especially if it gives me the opportunity to look elsewhere in the near future once the dust has settled.

[michigancat]

Coaching searches are weird, and results are never as simple as you think. Lots of back channel convos and feelers that don't progress much.

Yet the results almost always end up being similar to what most of us commonfolk expect a school could hire. (South Carolina is an obvious exception)

[captaincrap]

If you want something to change make sure you and all your friends show up to every game, donate all of your expendable income and hope for the best!!!!! 

WE ARE KSTATEO

 

Root for the team and continue to donate in addition to working to affect change. Sorry, I probably phrased that wrong. I've seen folks encouraging recruits to not come here and for fans to not show up. I don't know how that helps K-State. You can be unhappy and still hope the team does well. there are other things you can do to voice displeasure while you root on the players.

[bruce]

If you want something to change make sure you and all your friends show up to every game, donate all of your expendable income and hope for the best!!!!! 

WE ARE KSTATEO

 

Root for the team and continue to donate in addition to working to affect change. Sorry, I probably phrased that wrong. I've seen folks encouraging recruits to not come here and for fans to not show up. I don't know how that helps K-State. You can be unhappy and still hope the team does well. there are other things you can do to voice displeasure while you root on the players.

Disagree.  I once agreed, but now am quite positive KS and JC won't give a crap until there is a banner right in their fat faces.

[Grimlock]

It seems like we are under some pressure to clean up our basketball program.  Is this initiative internal, or is it possible that we are getting pressure from the NCAA?  Perhaps due to the Beasley v. Joel Bell lawsuit.

[naturalselection]

Incorrect. Take away is that however angry you are, if you are a K-State fan you should still want K-State basketball to do well and not want the university to be harmed. Reacting in ways that are opposite of that I think are misguided. Channel your anger in directions that can affect change. Root for the people wearing the uniform. Support K-State financially. Realize that the guy in charge has done a lot of good, along with the things you don't like.

First, let me say that I think you are doing a very good job representing our athletic department on this forum.  I'm sure this is not part of your job description.  I hope that you understand that my (our) frustrations are in no way focused toward you.  I am grateful that you are trying to provide answers, even if I don't like them. 

I also have no problem admitting that John Currie has done some very good things in his time as our athletic director.  I think it is probably excellent in several areas as far as an athletic directors job description.  However, it's my opinion that he is way below average in a couple areas that I consider to be among the most important of his responsibilities. 

- He FAILED to establish and cultivate a relationship with a very successful and popular basketball coach.  Had he done so, even assuming what you say is true about Frank Martin and his path over the past 1-2 seasons, he may well have been in a position to help make the changes you say were needed.  By creating (is there any question that he has significant responsibility for) an adversarial relationship with this coach, he took away any chance he might have to affect change. 

- He FAILED in his first major sport hire.  You can "wait and see" this all you want, but the process, parameters, and result are failed. 

For those two things alone I have no qualms about wanting him fired.  Reports of a hyperactive compliance department, friction with the football coach, lies and/or half truths.  All icing on the cake imo.  I don't want him lynched.  I don't wish ill on him or his family.  I simply do not want him to occupy his current position at the University I support any longer.

So I should be channeling my anger more properly, but where?  How should I go about getting the athletic director at Kansas State University fired without causing collateral damage?  I would welcome your suggestions here. 

[catzacker]

CC, I’m going to ask a question and then give my answer in how I perceive it:

Why was oscar Weber the “best” KSU could do?

CZ A:  In part, because every coach in America turned their heads a bit at the idea that Frank Martin left Kansas State (w/ the record he’s had, with the support he’s had, with the new practice facility being built, two years into a new contract, with the team he’s coming back with) to South Carolina (who has never won anything of any substance in its entire history and has been a wasteland for coaches). In part, because John now has a rep amongst coaches of being hard to get along with and with being over-compliant (i.e. wanting a world of black/white and refusing to live in the real, gray world).  In part, because Frank put us in this situation because he’s a maniacal, house burning, crazy, emotional man who was coming close to alienating himself from his team/program.  In part because Currie, from day one, has not found a way to develop a relationship with the best coach KSU has had in 2 decades.     

Your answer?

I don't know why BW was the choice. Never said that he was the best we could do. I said I think the search was fine, it considered lots of options, and BW was the choice. I know of a couple people that said No, but not if there were more or what the reasons were. Coaching searches are weird, and results are never as simple as you think. Lots of back channel convos and feelers that don't progress much.

First,  let me say that you have a bigger pair than our AD.  And, if I were John, I’d give you a raise.  Because you have sat there and taken slings and arrows.  So, for that and for whatever it is worth, I have infinite more respect for you than I imagine I ever will for Currie.

I guess, what I won’t understand, what I will never understand, is why oscar Weber was ever good enough for us.  He’s not.  He never will be.  Maybe I have a self-inflated view of this job, but I expect our AD to fight like hell for ksu and to take calculated risks.  Basically, I want an AD who is “all in” because that’s what most AD’s expect out of their fans.  oscar Weber doesn’t symbolize “all in” to me.  And if I don’t believe that our AD is committed, then I’m not going to be either. 

[bruce]

Incorrect. Take away is that however angry you are, if you are a K-State fan you should still want K-State basketball to do well and not want the university to be harmed. Reacting in ways that are opposite of that I think are misguided. Channel your anger in directions that can affect change. Root for the people wearing the uniform. Support K-State financially. Realize that the guy in charge has done a lot of good, along with the things you don't like.

First, let me say that I think you are doing a very good job representing our athletic department on this forum.  I'm sure this is not part of your job description.  I hope that you understand that my (our) frustrations are in no way focused toward you.  I am grateful that you are trying to provide answers, even if I don't like them. 

I also have no problem admitting that John Currie has done some very good things in his time as our athletic director.  I think it is probably excellent in several areas as far as an athletic directors job description.  However, it's my opinion that he is way below average in a couple areas that I consider to be among the most important of his responsibilities. 

- He FAILED to establish and cultivate a relationship with a very successful and popular basketball coach.  Had he done so, even assuming what you say is true about Frank Martin and his path over the past 1-2 seasons, he may well have been in a position to help make the changes you say were needed.  By creating (is there any question that he has significant responsibility for) an adversarial relationship with this coach, he took away any chance he might have to affect change. 

- He FAILED in his first major sport hire.  You can "wait and see" this all you want, but the process, parameters, and result are failed. 

For those two things alone I have no qualms about wanting him fired.  Reports of a hyperactive compliance department, friction with the football coach, lies and/or half truths.  All icing on the cake imo.  I don't want him lynched.  I don't wish ill on him or his family.  I simply do not want him to occupy his current position at the University I support any longer.

So I should be channeling my anger more properly, but where?  How should I go about getting the athletic director at Kansas State University fired without causing collateral damage?  I would welcome your suggestions here.

I would also like to know the answer to this.

[LickNeckey]

You realize Frank didn't treat them the way he treated other people around him don't you? I can't read their minds but I have a family to support and if my ability to do so is in question, I'll more than likely go with the sure thing, especially if it gives me the opportunity to look elsewhere in the near future once the dust has settled.

Yeah that is the problem this is about JC getting a "sure thing" to feed his family rather than what is best for K-State.

JC and his "family" will eat the K-State B-Ball "family" will starve.

[LickNeckey]

It seems like we are under some pressure to clean up our basketball program.  Is this initiative internal, or is it possible that we are getting pressure from the NCAA?  Perhaps due to the Beasley v. Joel Bell lawsuit.

Did you watch the title Game???

Do you think any of the programs in the FF give two fucks about compliance?

But hey if we can do it the "right way" into the first round every other year that would be great!!!

 

[captaincrap]

- He FAILED to establish and cultivate a relationship with a very successful and popular basketball coach.  Had he done so, even assuming what you say is true about Frank Martin and his path over the past 1-2 seasons, he may well have been in a position to help make the changes you say were needed.  By creating (is there any question that he has significant responsibility for) an adversarial relationship with this coach, he took away any chance he might have to affect change. 

- He FAILED in his first major sport hire.  You can "wait and see" this all you want, but the process, parameters, and result are failed. 

For those two things alone I have no qualms about wanting him fired.  Reports of a hyperactive compliance department, friction with the football coach, lies and/or half truths.  All icing on the cake imo.  I don't want him lynched.  I don't wish ill on him or his family.  I simply do not want him to occupy his current position at the University I support any longer.

So I should be channeling my anger more properly, but where?  How should I go about getting the athletic director at Kansas State University fired without causing collateral damage?  I would welcome your suggestions here.

1. He probably could have been better in working with Frank. I will concede that. Would also say that it is a two-way street. Frank, god love him, can be very paranoid and stubborn -- two qualities that make smoothing things out a little challenging. Not sure I'd go so far to say Failed, but yeah, probably could have done better.

2. Respectfully disagree. BW hasn't coached a game yet, not sure how you can say its a failure. You can be dubious and doubtful and pessimistic, sure go ahead. But results are what coaches and Ads are judged on, not how well a PC goes or how the fan reaction goes.

I get it, you don't like BW and are pissed at JC for it. Just maybe put down the pitchfork and torches. First, you aren't going to get him fired. Won't happen until BW has at least coached some games. So really you need to be focusing on where you can affect change -- try to set up meetings with the AD to discuss fan outreach. Send him emails or letters with some productive ideas of ways to interact with fans in a constructive way, such as town hall meetings or focus groups. Explain calmly how it makes you feel to be in the dark on things. that kind of stuff. Yeah, it's not as fun as billboards and airplane banners. But its that kind of stuff that will actually work. I really think there is an opportunity here to use BW as an impetus for change. But if you're focusing on getting BW or JC fired, you're wasting the chance cause those things aren't happening anytime in the short term.

[naturalselection]

Being completely honest about Frank would put the university in harm's way. Leaving it at that, sorry. I know that irritates some fans, but reality sometimes sucks, and forces short term harm for long term protection or benefit.

One more question on this quote CC.  What % of high major basketball coaches do you think an athletic department official could make an identical statement about?  Especially considering a very....active compliance department.

I guess I really don't know what you mean... pretty much every program in the country has dirty laundry that they wouldn't expose. K-State isn't unique here.

My point:  We can't discuss what Frank Martin did because that could/would come back to hurt KSU.  Ok, so how many major college basketball coaches do things that could/would hurt their universities if revealed?  Answer, I'm guessing, is most of them.  So what about that situation makes it unique that KSU HAD to get rid of Frank Martin?

It seems to me there are 2 major talking points on why we had to get rid of Frank Martin.

1)  He had become a total egomaniacal prick who had alienated most if not all of his players, many athletic department officials (not just the AD), and KSU employees in other ancillary departments.  Amazingly, not his direct staff who all followed him and would have been closest to his insanity, I digress.  His program had become unsustainable because no one would work/play for/with him.

2)  He was doing things that could get the university in trouble with the NCAA if revealed.   Obviously stuff that goes well beyond the things that our athletic department did report.

#2 seems obvious why we wouldn't discuss. 

#1 I can't understand exactly why this is still so nebulous.  He can't hurt us in our coaching search.  That's done.  Would talking about what players were going to leave and why hurt our chances to get another coach 3-4-5 (however many) years down the line?  Would talking about #1 cause Frank to go full out nuclear and reveal #2 (crazy suicide bomber style)? 

[kitten_mittons]

How hard would it have been for him to say "I can't talk about the situation regarding Jamar in very much detail because of FERPA, but I will try and answer any questions you may have.  Just know that I can't cross that line." 

He said exactly that before stumbling through the trash can stuff. He should have just said "I can't get into the specifics, sorry", but he tried to dance around it and made himself look bad. He was trying to explain without giving detail, and that wasn't going to work in this spot. But he did preface his comments by saying that because of FERPA he was limited.

I'm pretty sure he told us exactly what happened.  Well, at least why he got suspended.  Well, "Hypothetically," that is.  And if that is what happened, then it was awesome that he told us exactly what happened, but used "hypothetically" to cover himself.

[Dr Rick Daris]

Being completely honest about Frank would put the university in harm's way. Leaving it at that, sorry. I know that irritates some fans, but reality sometimes sucks, and forces short term harm for long term protection or benefit.

 

if you or anybody at the university knows anything about frank then you are required to turn it in to the ncaa immediately or we could get the death penalty. maybe worse.

[naturalselection]

1. He probably could have been better in working with Frank. I will concede that. Would also say that it is a two-way street. Frank, god love him, can be very paranoid and stubborn -- two qualities that make smoothing things out a little challenging. Not sure I'd go so far to say Failed, but yeah, probably could have done better.

2. Respectfully disagree. BW hasn't coached a game yet, not sure how you can say its a failure. You can be dubious and doubtful and pessimistic, sure go ahead. But results are what coaches and Ads are judged on, not how well a PC goes or how the fan reaction goes.

I get it, you don't like BW and are pissed at JC for it. Just maybe put down the pitchfork and torches. First, you aren't going to get him fired. Won't happen until BW has at least coached some games. So really you need to be focusing on where you can affect change -- try to set up meetings with the AD to discuss fan outreach. Send him emails or letters with some productive ideas of ways to interact with fans in a constructive way, such as town hall meetings or focus groups. Explain calmly how it makes you feel to be in the dark on things. that kind of stuff. Yeah, it's not as fun as billboards and airplane banners. But its that kind of stuff that will actually work. I really think there is an opportunity here to use BW as an impetus for change. But if you're focusing on getting BW or JC fired, you're wasting the chance cause those things aren't happening anytime in the short term.

1)  There's a time line of events here.  It's not just one thing that John did to strain the relationship.  Then, "Oops, sorry bro, let me make it up to you."  Paranoid/stubborn Frank:  "f' you John Currie".  To say "yeah, he probably could have done better" is not the right lesson to take from this imo.  Another concern is that John hasn't even taken that.  Because there were still poor decisions (imo) on his part right up to the final break up.

Did Frank do his part to tank the relationship?  Yes.  I can say that unequivocally.  Even though from my understanding of the situation it's easier for me to see why the coach would become paranoid then why the AD wanted him gone. 

2)  And that's fine.  I have not shouted down any "wait and see" fans with anger.  I have seen very little of that here (certainly no more PI then on any other topic that has ever been discussed on this forum).  What many of us on the "failed coach" side have done is provide a veritable mountain of evidence against this hire.  When our athletic director suggests he could not find a single thing. 

Why does it have to be pitch forks and torches?  I don't think John Currie is fit for the position he currently holds.  Is there something morally wrong with that opinion?  I don't have any interest at this point in trying to help him grow into the position (but dude, if you know somebody who has his ear.  Stop with the stupid little lies).  I don't think we're in a position as a University (and general college landscape) to be able to afford the next bad hire.  NOTHING about the process this time leads me to believe "He was almost there" and will do significantly better next time.  I have no interest in getting oscar Weber fired.  Where I feel I (and our fans) can best affect change is by removing John Currie from the Athletics Director role. 

[LickNeckey]

 

did the NCAA make us hire oscar Weber for our transgressions.

like a modern day Death Penalty?

[steve dave]

It seems like we are under some pressure to clean up our basketball program.  Is this initiative internal, or is it possible that we are getting pressure from the NCAA?  Perhaps due to the Beasley v. Joel Bell lawsuit.

interesting first post grimlock

[Pete]

I agree with Captain Crap that we should still support the team in attendance and other "fan" activities.


However, I believe that the only way to remove John Currie is to withhold financial support until he is gone.  There is no other way.  If you do not want Currie as our AD, simply submit a written commitment to KSU with the amount of money you will donate after he is removed from his position.  It's merely a time shift in the donation....once Currie is gone, the "tap opens back up."  Quite simple, and still supports KSU.

go cats.

[8manpick]

Would the coaching search have gone better if we had offered more money?  Was oscar Weber the best we could do for $1.5M escalating to $1.9M?  Serious question.  Could we have gotten someone significantly better for $2.5M?  I ask because I truly don't see any reason we wouldn't spend that extra money to get a better coach.  More success in the basketball program would easily cover $1-2M a year in extra salary costs.

I am genuinely worried that we started with a relatively low number in mind and got told no by people that would have come here for a bit more.

[steve dave]

cc, is the KState job poisoned in some way we don't know about (ie. because of something other than Currie)?

[ben ji]

It sounds like whoever decided to prance him out there without any warning right before the Final Four on little rest should be fired immediately if that's the case.

Seems like most of this thread is CC saying "Yeah, that wasn't handled well" or "Yeah, I don't agree with that"

But the take away is don't try to get the guy responsible for it fired.

Incorrect. Take away is that however angry you are, if you are a K-State fan you should still want K-State basketball to do well and not want the university to be harmed. Reacting in ways that are opposite of that I think are misguided. Channel your anger in directions that can affect change. Root for the people wearing the uniform. Support K-State financially. Realize that the guy in charge has done a lot of good, along with the things you don't like.

John Currie's actions of the last month have delivered the message that Kansas State's leadership does not believe that Kansas State is a first rate institution.  We have seen media people like Goodman, Parrish and Mellinger take that message and run.  Not to even mention the Reiter piece.

Fund raising is great.  Facilities are nice.  But if our own AD can't lure a better candidate than someone who has just been fired, with a losing conference record over the last five years, who completely lost a team that included legitimate NBA talent, what good are those facilities?

If John Currie is going to send the message that Kansas State is not good enough to do better than that, than I am going to send the message to John Currie that he is not good enough for Kansas State.

This