Hiring Process Discussion with CC

[captaincrap]

Gottlieb stated that he had already talked to potential assistants, and had a plan. Weber said he had not talked to potential assistants and said little more than "I want someone with K-State ties and maybe someone that can maybe recruit texas or something". Who knows, maybe Weber is a liar.

Also, I have no problem with Currie and Weber not publicly discussing targets.

Not defending BW, but... The dude had maybe a couple hours sleep in two days. He had flown all over the country in the last 8 hours leading up to the PC. He had met about a 100 people in the last hour. He was tired and nervous and up in front of a room of people he didn't know. Probably not the best environment for perfect name recall. I do think the PC was rushed and was a little unfair to BW, it put him in a tough spot to really excel.

I would say BW has been much better than his PC in is subsequent radio interviews. He's had a chance to catch his breath.

[naturalselection]

Look, the reality of it is that most of the general public will not find out the details of certain events, namely the Jamar situation... With Jamar, a lot of that is coming from FERPA. That is the main reason for the FOIA refusals, because discussion of Jamar's financial situation and personal details falls under FERPA.

Fine, that is a reasonable answer.  Doesn't explain his poor handling of the questions, or situation in general, but I can accept that.  Are the media dudes lying/exaggerating when they say that EVERY FOIA request they have put in has been denied (or price tagged way over industry standard)?

With Frank, I don't think K-State gains anything publicly by detailing everything. It could harm everyone involved. So I think they are just going to keep quiet, wish him well, and move on. Unfortunately, Frank was digging a grave that no AD was going to be able to dig him out of. Trust me, it's best for both sides.

The consequence of that is you guys are left to speculate, read reports from "sources" that are probably only telling one side of the story, and then have to form opinions on incomplete information. That sucks, no question. And it's not fair to you guys, no question.

Explain to me how K-State has nothing to gain with being forthright about Frank?  Right now we have a large segment of our fan base disenfranchised, and a significant segment in full out revolt.  What are the potential negative consequences (short and/or long term) that are overriding the current situation?

It is my opinion this is being caused in large part because we DON'T believe what our athletic director (and athletic department sources) is telling us.  The reason that many of us don't believe John Currie is that we see a pattern of lying (or stretching the truth, whatever) that causes us to question everything he says.

John Currie says "there are no predetermined parameters".  You come on a few days later and say "he really wanted someone with prior head coaching experience".  Well rough ridin' say that John, why wouldn't you?  Why not say "we're going to look at all the qualified candidates, but there are certain things that I feel are important for this hire and will be used in comparing them", then tell us what you're looking for and explain why those things are important.  Is that asking too much?  That assumes though, that there really was a thought process before hand.  That we didn't end up at oscar Weber and then make up the rational for the hire.

John Currie says "we wanted to do this quickly for our student athletes".  Come on, really?  You don't think that's insulting to the fan base CC?  We all know that is not the case.  If the truth is we realized oscar Weber is the best we were going to get and the process was over, fine.  "After vetting our candidates and interviewing those we wanted to meet we came to the decision that oscar Weber was our coach.  At that point there was no reason to prolong the appearance of a search."  But:  "We did this for the kids."? 

John Currie says "I looked hard for anyone who would tell me oscar Weber wasn't a good coach and couldn't get the job done and couldn't find one person or shred of evidence that was the case."  You can try to pass that off as press conference fluff, but that is not the way it comes off. 

But then, when we talk about Frank we get:

"Dude it was bad and getting worse."
"What do you mean?"
"Everybody was going to leave, no one could work with him, it was going to be BAD if something wasn't done."
"Like how bad?  NCAA bad?"
"Can't say, maybe some day, but BAD."
"Cause we were still doing pretty well on the court.."
"Are you listening, BAD.  Poisoned well, no more players, no more recruits."
"But we had a top 50 commit and were in on some other top 150 guys.."
"I don't think you're listening to me, off a cliff, program over, had to be done."
"Well what about the staff?"
"No they were ok, just Frank.  Frank was off the deep end."
"But they're all going with Frank."
"?  No they were part of the problem too."


Can you see how when people associated with the athletic department tell us things about how bad Frank had become, it's hard for us to take them at face value?  When the leader of the athletic department is fairly frequently telling us things we KNOW are not true (some understandable and excusable, many just unexplainable). 

[steve dave]

Gottlieb stated that he had already talked to potential assistants, and had a plan. Weber said he had not talked to potential assistants and said little more than "I want someone with K-State ties and maybe someone that can maybe recruit texas or something". Who knows, maybe Weber is a liar.

Also, I have no problem with Currie and Weber not publicly discussing targets.

Not defending BW, but... The dude had maybe a couple hours sleep in two days. He had flown all over the country in the last 8 hours leading up to the PC. He had met about a 100 people in the last hour. He was tired and nervous and up in front of a room of people he didn't know. Probably not the best environment for perfect name recall. I do think the PC was rushed and was a little unfair to BW, it put him in a tough spot to really excel.

I would say BW has been much better than his PC in is subsequent radio interviews. He's had a chance to catch his breath.

It sounds like whoever decided to prance him out there without any warning right before the Final Four on little rest should be fired immediately if that's the case. 

[michigancat]

Not defending BW, but... The dude had maybe a couple hours sleep in two days. He had flown all over the country in the last 8 hours leading up to the PC. He had met about a 100 people in the last hour. He was tired and nervous and up in front of a room of people he didn't know. Probably not the best environment for perfect name recall. I do think the PC was rushed and was a little unfair to BW, it put him in a tough spot to really excel.

Isn't that what life of a high-major basketball coach is like? Maybe asking oscar to be a high-major basketball coach is a little unfair.

[naturalselection]

It sounds like whoever decided to prance him out there without any warning right before the Final Four on little rest should be fired immediately if that's the case.

Seems like most of this thread is CC saying "Yeah, that wasn't handled well" or "Yeah, I don't agree with that"

But the take away is don't try to get the guy responsible for it fired. 

[captaincrap]

Look, the reality of it is that most of the general public will not find out the details of certain events, namely the Jamar situation... With Jamar, a lot of that is coming from FERPA. That is the main reason for the FOIA refusals, because discussion of Jamar's financial situation and personal details falls under FERPA.

Fine, that is a reasonable answer.  Doesn't explain his poor handling of the questions, or situation in general, but I can accept that.  Are the media dudes lying/exaggerating when they say that EVERY FOIA request they have put in has been denied (or price tagged way over industry standard)?

With Frank, I don't think K-State gains anything publicly by detailing everything. It could harm everyone involved. So I think they are just going to keep quiet, wish him well, and move on. Unfortunately, Frank was digging a grave that no AD was going to be able to dig him out of. Trust me, it's best for both sides.

The consequence of that is you guys are left to speculate, read reports from "sources" that are probably only telling one side of the story, and then have to form opinions on incomplete information. That sucks, no question. And it's not fair to you guys, no question.

Explain to me how K-State has nothing to gain with being forthright about Frank?  Right now we have a large segment of our fan base disenfranchised, and a significant segment in full out revolt.  What are the potential negative consequences (short and/or long term) that are overriding the current situation?

It is my opinion this is being caused in large part because we DON'T believe what our athletic director (and athletic department sources) is telling us.  The reason that many of us don't believe John Currie is that we see a pattern of lying (or stretching the truth, whatever) that causes us to question everything he says.

John Currie says "there are no predetermined parameters".  You come on a few days later and say "he really wanted someone with prior head coaching experience".  Well rough ridin' say that John, why wouldn't you?  Why not say "we're going to look at all the qualified candidates, but there are certain things that I feel are important for this hire and will be used in comparing them", then tell us what you're looking for and explain why those things are important.  Is that asking too much?  That assumes though, that there really was a thought process before hand.  That we didn't end up at oscar Weber and then make up the rational for the hire.

John Currie says "we wanted to do this quickly for our student athletes".  Come on, really?  You don't think that's insulting to the fan base CC?  We all know that is not the case.  If the truth is we realized oscar Weber is the best we were going to get and the process was over, fine.  "After vetting our candidates and interviewing those we wanted to meet we came to the decision that oscar Weber was our coach.  At that point there was no reason to prolong the appearance of a search."  But:  "We did this for the kids."? 

John Currie says "I looked hard for anyone who would tell me oscar Weber wasn't a good coach and couldn't get the job done and couldn't find one person or shred of evidence that was the case."  You can try to pass that off as press conference fluff, but that is not the way it comes off. 

But then, when we talk about Frank we get:

"Dude it was bad and getting worse."
"What do you mean?"
"Everybody was going to leave, no one could work with him, it was going to be BAD if something wasn't done."
"Like how bad?  NCAA bad?"
"Can't say, maybe some day, but BAD."
"Cause we were still doing pretty well on the court.."
"Are you listening, BAD.  Poisoned well, no more players, no more recruits."
"But we had a top 50 commit and were in on some other top 150 guys.."
"I don't think you're listening to me, off a cliff, program over, had to be done."
"Well what about the staff?"
"No they were ok, just Frank.  Frank was off the deep end."
"But they're all going with Frank."
"?  No they were part of the problem too."


Can you see how when people associated with the athletic department tell us things about how bad Frank had become, it's hard for us to take them at face value?  When the leader of the athletic department is fairly frequently telling us things we KNOW are not true (some understandable and excusable, many just unexplainable).

Don't think FOIA refusals are abnormal, but don't know enough about other depts.

I did not say that JC wanted HC experience before he started searching. If I implied that, I apologize. I think he came to that conclusion late in the process.

Being completely honest about Frank would put the university in harm's way. Leaving it at that, sorry. I know that irritates some fans, but reality sometimes sucks, and forces short term harm for long term protection or benefit.

[captaincrap]

Gottlieb stated that he had already talked to potential assistants, and had a plan. Weber said he had not talked to potential assistants and said little more than "I want someone with K-State ties and maybe someone that can maybe recruit texas or something". Who knows, maybe Weber is a liar.

Also, I have no problem with Currie and Weber not publicly discussing targets.

Not defending BW, but... The dude had maybe a couple hours sleep in two days. He had flown all over the country in the last 8 hours leading up to the PC. He had met about a 100 people in the last hour. He was tired and nervous and up in front of a room of people he didn't know. Probably not the best environment for perfect name recall. I do think the PC was rushed and was a little unfair to BW, it put him in a tough spot to really excel.

I would say BW has been much better than his PC in is subsequent radio interviews. He's had a chance to catch his breath.

It sounds like whoever decided to prance him out there without any warning right before the Final Four on little rest should be fired immediately if that's the case.

Meh, just wasn't good timing. If it was any other weekend, I really think it would have been handled differently. The Final Four was a big variable. I think it could have waited a day or two, personally, but I think they were trying to get him going with the players as soon as he could.

[captaincrap]

Not defending BW, but... The dude had maybe a couple hours sleep in two days. He had flown all over the country in the last 8 hours leading up to the PC. He had met about a 100 people in the last hour. He was tired and nervous and up in front of a room of people he didn't know. Probably not the best environment for perfect name recall. I do think the PC was rushed and was a little unfair to BW, it put him in a tough spot to really excel.

Isn't that what life of a high-major basketball coach is like? Maybe asking oscar to be a high-major basketball coach is a little unfair.

I get it, you don't like oscar Weber.

[naturalselection]

I did not say that JC wanted HC experience before he started searching. If I implied that, I apologize. I think he came to that conclusion late in the process.

I don't believe you specified at what point you believe prior head coaching experience became an important (or over riding) priority for candidate selection.  I likely projected my belief that the process was a coherent one.  A mistake I seem to be making too often. 

[captaincrap]

It sounds like whoever decided to prance him out there without any warning right before the Final Four on little rest should be fired immediately if that's the case.

Seems like most of this thread is CC saying "Yeah, that wasn't handled well" or "Yeah, I don't agree with that"

But the take away is don't try to get the guy responsible for it fired.

Incorrect. Take away is that however angry you are, if you are a K-State fan you should still want K-State basketball to do well and not want the university to be harmed. Reacting in ways that are opposite of that I think are misguided. Channel your anger in directions that can affect change. Root for the people wearing the uniform. Support K-State financially. Realize that the guy in charge has done a lot of good, along with the things you don't like.

[AbeFroman]

Being completely honest about Frank would put the university in harm's way. Leaving it at that, sorry. I know that irritates some fans, but reality sometimes sucks, and forces short term harm for long term protection or benefit.

Unless Frank was involved in Jerry Sandusky activities, I don't see how any of these secrets could hurt K-State worse than it already has. We look like Futility U all over again with this debacle.

Currie doing this on the Final Four day just isn't going to fly with me. He tried to bury it, he's an ashamed little dog with his tail between his legs.

[steve dave]

Gottlieb stated that he had already talked to potential assistants, and had a plan. Weber said he had not talked to potential assistants and said little more than "I want someone with K-State ties and maybe someone that can maybe recruit texas or something". Who knows, maybe Weber is a liar.

Also, I have no problem with Currie and Weber not publicly discussing targets.

Not defending BW, but... The dude had maybe a couple hours sleep in two days. He had flown all over the country in the last 8 hours leading up to the PC. He had met about a 100 people in the last hour. He was tired and nervous and up in front of a room of people he didn't know. Probably not the best environment for perfect name recall. I do think the PC was rushed and was a little unfair to BW, it put him in a tough spot to really excel.

I would say BW has been much better than his PC in is subsequent radio interviews. He's had a chance to catch his breath.

It sounds like whoever decided to prance him out there without any warning right before the Final Four on little rest should be fired immediately if that's the case.

Meh, just wasn't good timing. If it was any other weekend, I really think it would have been handled differently. The Final Four was a big variable. I think it could have waited a day or two, personally, but I think they were trying to get him going with the players as soon as he could.

that's a good point

[Thecatwhisperer]

UPKS received a call from the NCAA about 2 minutes after Frank announced on national TV that he paid players in high school.  The NCAA said that was a very stupid thing Frank just did.  Frank knew at this point he was gone.  What purpose did he have for opening that can of worms? Sure didn't help K-State.

why is that a problem here but not at USC???

GTFOOMF

It show a little piece of the pie that our athletic department has had to deal with. It's Franks way or no way, he doesn't think sometimes, he just reacts.  They are juggling a PR nightmare right now with a coach who was loved by most fans (myself included) who wanted to ignore what was going on behind the scenes.  A lot of the rumors going around about our AD are being spread from the former administration. Rather than speculating on message boards, why don't you go inform yourselves by talking to the actual people. 

Yeah, that's a rough ridin' two way street. The AD is spreading these Frank was "out-of-control" and showing up late for practice rumors, yet the entire staff decided to follow this egomaniac who lost his team and just M-F'ed everyone all day. EVERYONE followed him!

Also, how about you rough ridin' inform us?

Both sides are spewing their propaganda but one side remains here at K-State and the other is gone. I'm choosing to support oscar Weber. I've talked with former players who have come back and talked and met with Frank and were very surprised and dissapointed with his arrogance and how he talked about his current players.  Frank was beginning to lose the support of those around him, including his team. That is a fact. He was insecure and acting like a high school coach. His aasistants have little choice but to follow or find themselves unemployed.  I like Brad and wish we could have found a place for him on the staff but if I were him and didnt get the HC job, i wouldnt stick around either. It would just be too awkward. Did our AD do everything in his power to keep Frank? Probably not but if I had an employee who was a superstar media darling who thought he could do anything he wanted and constantly was looking around for other job opportunities and then found one, I would probably do the same.  Currie has a lot of blame in my eyes for not knowing how to handle Frank though.  I'm not sure many people could but that is a part of Currie's job description.  Frank shouldn't have wanted to look around but it's hard to negotiate with someone when they can't control their emotions.

I truly believe our program will be better off next year with Frank gone and Weber here.  Weber is a good coach and we will be more fundamentally sound under his coaching. Despite what people think, I believe we just picked up a very valuable stock that happens to be undervalued at this time. 

[michigancat]

Not defending BW, but... The dude had maybe a couple hours sleep in two days. He had flown all over the country in the last 8 hours leading up to the PC. He had met about a 100 people in the last hour. He was tired and nervous and up in front of a room of people he didn't know. Probably not the best environment for perfect name recall. I do think the PC was rushed and was a little unfair to BW, it put him in a tough spot to really excel.

Isn't that what life of a high-major basketball coach is like? Maybe asking oscar to be a high-major basketball coach is a little unfair.

I get it, you don't like oscar Weber.

I'm sorry, but you're making a bullshit excuse for oscar. He's expected to travel around the country on little sleep and go into living rooms and gyms on little sleep and meet lots of people and not flub up names or sound like a bumbling idiot. Coaches have press conferences under similar circumstances all the time and don't sound that stupid.

Gottlieb stated that he had already talked to potential assistants, and had a plan. Weber said he had not talked to potential assistants and said little more than "I want someone with K-State ties and maybe someone that can maybe recruit texas or something". Who knows, maybe Weber is a liar.

Also, I have no problem with Currie and Weber not publicly discussing targets.

Not defending BW, but... The dude had maybe a couple hours sleep in two days. He had flown all over the country in the last 8 hours leading up to the PC. He had met about a 100 people in the last hour. He was tired and nervous and up in front of a room of people he didn't know. Probably not the best environment for perfect name recall. I do think the PC was rushed and was a little unfair to BW, it put him in a tough spot to really excel.

I would say BW has been much better than his PC in is subsequent radio interviews. He's had a chance to catch his breath.

It sounds like whoever decided to prance him out there without any warning right before the Final Four on little rest should be fired immediately if that's the case.

Meh, just wasn't good timing. If it was any other weekend, I really think it would have been handled differently. The Final Four was a big variable. I think it could have waited a day or two, personally, but I think they were trying to get him going with the players as soon as he could.

he didn't want to interview gottlieb.

[naturalselection]

Being completely honest about Frank would put the university in harm's way. Leaving it at that, sorry. I know that irritates some fans, but reality sometimes sucks, and forces short term harm for long term protection or benefit.

One more question on this quote CC.  What % of high major basketball coaches do you think an athletic department official could make an identical statement about?  Especially considering a very....active compliance department. 

[bruce]

Incorrect. Take away is that however angry you are, if you are a K-State fan you should still want K-State basketball to do well and not want the university to be harmed. Reacting in ways that are opposite of that I think are misguided. Channel your anger in directions that can affect change. Root for the people wearing the uniform. Support K-State financially. Realize that the guy in charge has done a lot of good, along with the things you don't like.

[michigancat]

Meh, just wasn't good timing. If it was any other weekend, I really think it would have been handled differently. The Final Four was a big variable. I think it could have waited a day or two, personally, but I think they were trying to get him going with the players as soon as he could.

that's a good point

yeah, who knows how many players would have left by the time we announced the name Saturday and had a Sunday press conference.

[ChiComCat]

It sounds like whoever decided to prance him out there without any warning right before the Final Four on little rest should be fired immediately if that's the case.

Seems like most of this thread is CC saying "Yeah, that wasn't handled well" or "Yeah, I don't agree with that"

But the take away is don't try to get the guy responsible for it fired.

Incorrect. Take away is that however angry you are, if you are a K-State fan you should still want K-State basketball to do well and not want the university to be harmed. Reacting in ways that are opposite of that I think are misguided. Channel your anger in directions that can affect change. Root for the people wearing the uniform. Support K-State financially. Realize that the guy in charge has done a lot of good, along with the things you don't like.

If our reaction to being angry at the admin is the same as when we are happy with it, I do not see how this affects change

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

[captaincrap]

Being completely honest about Frank would put the university in harm's way. Leaving it at that, sorry. I know that irritates some fans, but reality sometimes sucks, and forces short term harm for long term protection or benefit.

One more question on this quote CC.  What % of high major basketball coaches do you think an athletic department official could make an identical statement about?  Especially considering a very....active compliance department.

I guess I really don't know what you mean... pretty much every program in the country has dirty laundry that they wouldn't expose. K-State isn't unique here.

[bruce]

Being completely honest about Frank would put the university in harm's way. Leaving it at that, sorry. I know that irritates some fans, but reality sometimes sucks, and forces short term harm for long term protection or benefit.

One more question on this quote CC.  What % of high major basketball coaches do you think an athletic department official could make an identical statement about?  Especially considering a very....active compliance department.

I guess I really don't know what you mean... pretty much every program in the country has dirty laundry that they wouldn't expose. K-State isn't unique here.

But you are implying Frank DID do something unique, which is why he was at odds with Currie.  If not, then WTF is Frank not still here?

[captaincrap]

Being completely honest about Frank would put the university in harm's way. Leaving it at that, sorry. I know that irritates some fans, but reality sometimes sucks, and forces short term harm for long term protection or benefit.

Unless Frank was involved in Jerry Sandusky activities, I don't see how any of these secrets could hurt K-State worse than it already has. We look like Futility U all over again with this debacle.

Currie doing this on the Final Four day just isn't going to fly with me. He tried to bury it, he's an ashamed little dog with his tail between his legs.

If he wanted to bury it, he would have waited till Tuesday. Announcing it prior to the most watched basketball games of the year is the best way to get it discussed. The Gameday guys talked about the hire. They don't do that if it was done Tuesday. That was actively discussed as a benefit of doing it on Saturday, early enough to get run on national TV.

[catzacker]

CC, I’m going to ask a question and then give my answer in how I perceive it:

Why was oscar Weber the “best” KSU could do?

CZ A:  In part, because every coach in America turned their heads a bit at the idea that Frank Martin left Kansas State (w/ the record he’s had, with the support he’s had, with the new practice facility being built, two years into a new contract, with the team he’s coming back with) to South Carolina (who has never won anything of any substance in its entire history and has been a wasteland for coaches). In part, because John now has a rep amongst coaches of being hard to get along with and with being over-compliant (i.e. wanting a world of black/white and refusing to live in the real, gray world).  In part, because Frank put us in this situation because he’s a maniacal, house burning, crazy, emotional man who was coming close to alienating himself from his team/program.  In part because Currie, from day one, has not found a way to develop a relationship with the best coach KSU has had in 2 decades.     

Your answer?

[michigancat]

Both sides are spewing their propaganda but one side remains here at K-State and the other is gone. I'm choosing to support oscar Weber. I've talked with former players who have come back and talked and met with Frank and were very surprised and dissapointed with his arrogance and how he talked about his current players.  Frank was beginning to lose the support of those around him, including his team. That is a fact. He was insecure and acting like a high school coach. His aasistants have little choice but to follow or find themselves unemployed.  I like Brad and wish we could have found a place for him on the staff but if I were him and didnt get the HC job, i wouldnt stick around either. It would just be too awkward. Did our AD do everything in his power to keep Frank? Probably not but if I had an employee who was a superstar media darling who thought he could do anything he wanted and constantly was looking around for other job opportunities and then found one, I would probably do the same.  Currie has a lot of blame in my eyes for not knowing how to handle Frank though.  I'm not sure many people could but that is a part of Currie's job description.  Frank shouldn't have wanted to look around but it's hard to negotiate with someone when they can't control their emotions.

I truly believe our program will be better off next year with Frank gone and Weber here.  Weber is a good coach and we will be more fundamentally sound under his coaching. Despite what people think, I believe we just picked up a very valuable stock that happens to be undervalued at this time. 

You realize Greenawalt, Figger, and Lamont all went to SC before a coach was announced, right? Greenawalt would for sure have a job offer almost anywhere he wanted, and I imagine Figger would have found one without too much trouble.

[LickNeckey]

If you want something to change make sure you and all your friends show up to every game, donate all of your expendable income and hope for the best!!!!! 

WE ARE KSTATEO

 

[michigancat]

Both sides are spewing their propaganda but one side remains here at K-State and the other is gone. I'm choosing to support oscar Weber. I've talked with former players who have come back and talked and met with Frank and were very surprised and dissapointed with his arrogance and how he talked about his current players.  Frank was beginning to lose the support of those around him, including his team. That is a fact. He was insecure and acting like a high school coach. His aasistants have little choice but to follow or find themselves unemployed.  I like Brad and wish we could have found a place for him on the staff but if I were him and didnt get the HC job, i wouldnt stick around either. It would just be too awkward. Did our AD do everything in his power to keep Frank? Probably not but if I had an employee who was a superstar media darling who thought he could do anything he wanted and constantly was looking around for other job opportunities and then found one, I would probably do the same.  Currie has a lot of blame in my eyes for not knowing how to handle Frank though.  I'm not sure many people could but that is a part of Currie's job description.  Frank shouldn't have wanted to look around but it's hard to negotiate with someone when they can't control their emotions.

I truly believe our program will be better off next year with Frank gone and Weber here.  Weber is a good coach and we will be more fundamentally sound under his coaching. Despite what people think, I believe we just picked up a very valuable stock that happens to be undervalued at this time. 

Also, I just realized you think Weber will be an upgrade.