George Zimmerman is a piece of crap

[felix rex]

I don't share all the same sentiments as Gary Younge's widely shared Guardian column, but I agree that this is the basis for any outrage:

"the truth remains that Martin's heart would still be beating if Zimmerman had not chased him down and shot him."

[Kat Kid]

I think the only thing that is iron clad established is that George Zimmerman is an enormous coward masquerading as a tough guy.

[Headinjun]

just so people stop saying stupid stuff about hispanics, race and zimmerman.  hispanic is an ethnicity (only kinda, sorta, but it's used as if it was) and a hispanic can be of any race.  white hispanic is a perfectly rational, accurate term, but it isn't what zimmerman is.  zimmerman is half white (german), half hispanic (peruvian).  looking at him, he looks like his mother was mestizo, but according to wikipedia his maternal lineage included african ancestors.

anyways, saying he's a white hispanic is basically inaccurate.

Quasi-luked......

Actually, the federal government does it's criminal statistics on race as:
1. Caucasian
2. Black
3. Asian
4. Native American
5. Etc..

The only ethnicity they ask about is whether someone is hispanic.

Just a thought, but maybe the white offenders get lesser sentences because it isn't their 14th time in front of the judge?

This black Fl woman got twenty years for firing a warning shot in an abusive situation.  It was her first time to be involved with the law. 

http://www.wtsp.com/news/article/324906/19/Fla-mom-gets-20-years-for-firing-warning-shots

[Trim]

I don't share all the same sentiments as Gary Younge's widely shared Guardian column, but I agree that this is the basis for any outrage:

"the truth remains that Martin's heart would still be beating if Zimmerman had not chased him down and shot him."

No, he was a gangbanger and would've been shot dead within a week anyway.

[eastcat]

just so people stop saying stupid stuff about hispanics, race and zimmerman.  hispanic is an ethnicity (only kinda, sorta, but it's used as if it was) and a hispanic can be of any race.  white hispanic is a perfectly rational, accurate term, but it isn't what zimmerman is.  zimmerman is half white (german), half hispanic (peruvian).  looking at him, he looks like his mother was mestizo, but according to wikipedia his maternal lineage included african ancestors.

anyways, saying he's a white hispanic is basically inaccurate.

Quasi-luked......

Actually, the federal government does it's criminal statistics on race as:
1. Caucasian
2. Black
3. Asian
4. Native American
5. Etc..

The only ethnicity they ask about is whether someone is hispanic.

Just a thought, but maybe the white offenders get lesser sentences because it isn't their 14th time in front of the judge?

This black Fl woman got twenty years for firing a warning shot in an abusive situation.  It was her first time to be involved with the law. 

http://www.wtsp.com/news/article/324906/19/Fla-mom-gets-20-years-for-firing-warning-shots

Headinluke. Already covered this bruh.

[Pendergast]

Good to know you can still shoot someone trying to kill you.  #thanksgz

The only other thing I've learned in all of this is that black people honestly believe the justice system is out to get them.  I thought this belief was limited to high school pot heads.#themoreyouknow

such a shocker that you're in the bag for team Z.

Look up incarceration rates and sentencing lengths and tell me with a straight face that they don't have a point.

They don't have a point.

 

Placing blame on others is a hallmark of weakness.

If a black male and a white male commit the same crime and the white male gets a considerably lesser sentence then there is a problem.

Happens all the time and I witnessed it in my short stint as a youth.

I'm open to changing my mind, but waxing poetic isn't going to do it.  Do you have actual facts?

http://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/raceinc.html

Aren't these stats pretty much common knowledge???

Well no, obviously, but most would assume them to be somewhat accurate.  They don't prove anything though so, keep searching.  To assume that it's simply bias/racism/whatever excuse rather than exploring the cultural influences is foolish.

[michigancat]

Good to know you can still shoot someone trying to kill you.  #thanksgz

The only other thing I've learned in all of this is that black people honestly believe the justice system is out to get them.  I thought this belief was limited to high school pot heads.#themoreyouknow

such a shocker that you're in the bag for team Z.

Look up incarceration rates and sentencing lengths and tell me with a straight face that they don't have a point.

They don't have a point.

 

Placing blame on others is a hallmark of weakness.

If a black male and a white male commit the same crime and the white male gets a considerably lesser sentence then there is a problem.

Happens all the time and I witnessed it in my short stint as a youth.

I'm open to changing my mind, but waxing poetic isn't going to do it.  Do you have actual facts?

http://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/raceinc.html

Aren't these stats pretty much common knowledge???

Well no, obviously, but most would assume them to be somewhat accurate.  They don't prove anything though so, keep searching.  To assume that it's simply bias/racism/whatever excuse rather than exploring the cultural influences is foolish.

What "cultural influence" would you find that had more of an effect than racism?

[Shacks]

I think gun rights are the issue here, possibly more than race. Zimmerman was not properly trained to handle a firearm, and for that reason, I don't think he should have been allowed to have a concealed carry permit.

Zimmerman being a racist didn't kill Trayvon, his gun did.

I'd agree that gun rights and self-defense vs murder/manslaughter should be the bigger issues here, but race is the only reason this case got as much attention as it did.  People get shot and murdered every day in this country so it takes something like racist implications to draw such a huge amount of coverage.  If Zimmerman and Martin were both black or both white nobody cares.

[Pendergast]

Good to know you can still shoot someone trying to kill you.  #thanksgz

The only other thing I've learned in all of this is that black people honestly believe the justice system is out to get them.  I thought this belief was limited to high school pot heads.#themoreyouknow

such a shocker that you're in the bag for team Z.

Look up incarceration rates and sentencing lengths and tell me with a straight face that they don't have a point.

They don't have a point.

 

Placing blame on others is a hallmark of weakness.

If a black male and a white male commit the same crime and the white male gets a considerably lesser sentence then there is a problem.

Happens all the time and I witnessed it in my short stint as a youth.

I'm open to changing my mind, but waxing poetic isn't going to do it.  Do you have actual facts?

http://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/raceinc.html

Aren't these stats pretty much common knowledge???

Well no, obviously, but most would assume them to be somewhat accurate.  They don't prove anything though so, keep searching.  To assume that it's simply bias/racism/whatever excuse rather than exploring the cultural influences is foolish.

What "cultural influence" would you find that had more of an effect than racism?

Education levels, 2 parent families, cultural values, blah blah blah

Racism will always exist, and within every race.  To discount it exists is not my point.  My point is that racism plays one part, and I would argue it accounts for a very small percentage of the differences in "statistics" such as those linked.  Why aren't asians on that graph?  Why aren't native americans on that graph?  Mark twain probably has the perfect answer for those questions.

[SkinnyBenny]

I think gun rights are the issue here, possibly more than race. Zimmerman was not properly trained to handle a firearm, and for that reason, I don't think he should have been allowed to have a concealed carry permit.

Zimmerman being a racist didn't kill Trayvon, his gun did.

I'd agree that gun rights and self-defense vs murder/manslaughter should be the bigger issues here, but race is the only reason this case got as much attention as it did.  People get shot and murdered every day in this country so it takes something like racist implications to draw such a huge amount of coverage.  If Zimmerman and Martin were both black or both white nobody cares.

Why do people do the "if race weren't an issue no one would care" thing? Of course. No crap. But race is very much an issue here, and rightfully so. An unarmed and innocent black teenager can defend himself from a psycho with a gun, be killed, and then be vilified while his (non-black) murderer walks.

[michigancat]

What "cultural influence" would you find that had more of an effect than racism?

Education levels, 2 parent families, cultural values, blah blah blah

And why do you think the things you listed are different asking different races?

[michigancat]

I think gun rights are the issue here, possibly more than race. Zimmerman was not properly trained to handle a firearm, and for that reason, I don't think he should have been allowed to have a concealed carry permit.

Zimmerman being a racist didn't kill Trayvon, his gun did.

I'd agree that gun rights and self-defense vs murder/manslaughter should be the bigger issues here, but race is the only reason this case got as much attention as it did.  People get shot and murdered every day in this country so it takes something like racist implications to draw such a huge amount of coverage.  If Zimmerman and Martin were both black or both white nobody cares.

I think if Zimmerman shot a white kid and everything else went down exactly as it went down for real, it would still be a major story.

[Pendergast]

What "cultural influence" would you find that had more of an effect than racism?

Education levels, 2 parent families, cultural values, blah blah blah

And why do you think the things you listed are different asking different races?

I'm not interested in this bread crumb conversation.  To jump to the conclusion that one influence, in this case racism, is wholly to blame is asinine.  You're free to think otherwise.

[ChiComCat]

I think the sentences issued for similar crimes would be more indicative of racism.

[eastcat]

This thread should be moved to the birther pit.

[michigancat]

What "cultural influence" would you find that had more of an effect than racism?

Education levels, 2 parent families, cultural values, blah blah blah

And why do you think the things you listed are different asking different races?

I'm not interested in this bread crumb conversation.  To jump to the conclusion that one influence, in this case racism, is wholly to blame is asinine.  You're free to think otherwise.

Why is it asinine? Can you name any influence that had more of an impact? Or are you arguing that if blacks had gotten a fair shake in this country from day one that they would still have higher incarceration rates?

[Trim]

I think gun rights are the issue here, possibly more than race. Zimmerman was not properly trained to handle a firearm, and for that reason, I don't think he should have been allowed to have a concealed carry permit.

Zimmerman being a racist didn't kill Trayvon, his gun did.

I'd agree that gun rights and self-defense vs murder/manslaughter should be the bigger issues here, but race is the only reason this case got as much attention as it did.  People get shot and murdered every day in this country so it takes something like racist implications to draw such a huge amount of coverage.  If Zimmerman and Martin were both black or both white nobody cares.

The Jodi Arias case had a Lifetime movie in production before it even ended.  Any number of things can lead to disproportionate coverage, including a case in Florida, which already had heat on it for being weird as eff, involving a kid walking home and getting shot by the neighborhood watchman.

[Headinjun]

Good to know you can still shoot someone trying to kill you.  #thanksgz

The only other thing I've learned in all of this is that black people honestly believe the justice system is out to get them.  I thought this belief was limited to high school pot heads.#themoreyouknow

such a shocker that you're in the bag for team Z.

Look up incarceration rates and sentencing lengths and tell me with a straight face that they don't have a point.

They don't have a point.

 

Placing blame on others is a hallmark of weakness.

If a black male and a white male commit the same crime and the white male gets a considerably lesser sentence then there is a problem.

Happens all the time and I witnessed it in my short stint as a youth.

I'm open to changing my mind, but waxing poetic isn't going to do it.  Do you have actual facts?

http://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/raceinc.html

Aren't these stats pretty much common knowledge???

Well no, obviously, but most would assume them to be somewhat accurate.  They don't prove anything though so, keep searching.  To assume that it's simply bias/racism/whatever excuse rather than exploring the cultural influences is foolish.

What "cultural influence" would you find that had more of an effect than racism?

Education levels, 2 parent families, cultural values, blah blah blah

Racism will always exist, and within every race.  To discount it exists is not my point.  My point is that racism plays one part, and I would argue it accounts for a very small percentage of the differences in "statistics" such as those linked.  Why aren't asians on that graph?  Why aren't native americans on that graph?  Mark twain probably has the perfect answer for those questions.

The disparity in sentences can't be attributed to "Education levels, 2 parent families, cultural values, blah blah blah" as a judge would never use that criteria when sentencing a convicted defendant. 

I take it you're ignorant of the sentencing guidelines that have been put into place because of the drug war as it pertains to crack versus cocaine.   

Think about that, and then think about which communities each drug is prevalent in.

I also recommend watching the American Drug War:The Last White Hope by Kevin Booth. 

[SkinnyBenny]

Headinjun dropping some science right here, gang.

[john "teach me how to" dougie]

I think gun rights are the issue here, possibly more than race. Zimmerman was not properly trained to handle a firearm, and for that reason, I don't think he should have been allowed to have a concealed carry permit.

Zimmerman being a racist didn't kill Trayvon, his gun did.

I'd agree that gun rights and self-defense vs murder/manslaughter should be the bigger issues here, but race is the only reason this case got as much attention as it did.  People get shot and murdered every day in this country so it takes something like racist implications to draw such a huge amount of coverage.  If Zimmerman and Martin were both black or both white nobody cares.

I think if Zimmerman shot a white kid and everything else went down exactly as it went down for real, it would still be a major story.

I don't think he would have been charged if it had been a white kid.

[Trim]

I think gun rights are the issue here, possibly more than race. Zimmerman was not properly trained to handle a firearm, and for that reason, I don't think he should have been allowed to have a concealed carry permit.

Zimmerman being a racist didn't kill Trayvon, his gun did.

I'd agree that gun rights and self-defense vs murder/manslaughter should be the bigger issues here, but race is the only reason this case got as much attention as it did.  People get shot and murdered every day in this country so it takes something like racist implications to draw such a huge amount of coverage.  If Zimmerman and Martin were both black or both white nobody cares.

I think if Zimmerman shot a white kid and everything else went down exactly as it went down for real, it would still be a major story.

I don't think he would have been charged if it had been a white kid.

[Rams]

I think gun rights are the issue here, possibly more than race. Zimmerman was not properly trained to handle a firearm, and for that reason, I don't think he should have been allowed to have a concealed carry permit.

Zimmerman being a racist didn't kill Trayvon, his gun did.

I lean this way. I'm pretty sure Zimmerman would have shot a kid of any color.

I'm in this camp too, though sadly I think he was trained just as well as anyone who gets a concealed carry permit...which is to say very minimally.  I have friends who have taken the concealed carry class and even they say the amount of "training" is equally laughable and frightening.

imo, the nra got really lucky that this case was hijacked by the civil rights community early on because, on it's face, it undeniably disproves the asinine argument that more guns equal safer law-abiding citizens.

[SkinnyBenny]

I think you're right. But I also don't think the case was "highjacked" by the civil rights community. They were right in giving it as much attention as they did. Racial profiling, an issue that they have been fighting against forever, played an undeniable role as the inciting incident that killed an innocent black child.

And you know what? They were right to be up in arms. Seems like they knew nothing was going to come of it...and they were right.

[Pendergast]

Good to know you can still shoot someone trying to kill you.  #thanksgz

The only other thing I've learned in all of this is that black people honestly believe the justice system is out to get them.  I thought this belief was limited to high school pot heads.#themoreyouknow

such a shocker that you're in the bag for team Z.

Look up incarceration rates and sentencing lengths and tell me with a straight face that they don't have a point.

They don't have a point.

 

Placing blame on others is a hallmark of weakness.

If a black male and a white male commit the same crime and the white male gets a considerably lesser sentence then there is a problem.

Happens all the time and I witnessed it in my short stint as a youth.

I'm open to changing my mind, but waxing poetic isn't going to do it.  Do you have actual facts?

http://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/raceinc.html

Aren't these stats pretty much common knowledge???

Well no, obviously, but most would assume them to be somewhat accurate.  They don't prove anything though so, keep searching.  To assume that it's simply bias/racism/whatever excuse rather than exploring the cultural influences is foolish.

What "cultural influence" would you find that had more of an effect than racism?

Education levels, 2 parent families, cultural values, blah blah blah

Racism will always exist, and within every race.  To discount it exists is not my point.  My point is that racism plays one part, and I would argue it accounts for a very small percentage of the differences in "statistics" such as those linked.  Why aren't asians on that graph?  Why aren't native americans on that graph?  Mark twain probably has the perfect answer for those questions.

The disparity in sentences can't be attributed to "Education levels, 2 parent families, cultural values, blah blah blah" as a judge would never use that criteria when sentencing a convicted defendant. 

I take it you're ignorant of the sentencing guidelines that have been put into place because of the drug war as it pertains to crack versus cocaine.   

Think about that, and then think about which communities each drug is prevalent in.

I also recommend watching the American Drug War:The Last White Hope by Kevin Booth.

Yes, judges do use such inputs in sentencing, to doubt that shows a grave misunderstanding of the legal system.  You've not provided any statistics on disparity of sentencing based on race.  This seems to show the disparity quite well:

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/race/news/2012/03/13/11351/the-top-10-most-startling-facts-about-people-of-color-and-criminal-justice-in-the-united-states/

Fact 8, if true.  However, yet again, racism is not the sole component.  To what percentage it influences such inconsistencies is impossible to gauge, making this a theoretical discussion.  So, feel free to tout ignorance and what have you, it's simply not the case.

[Pendergast]

What "cultural influence" would you find that had more of an effect than racism?

Education levels, 2 parent families, cultural values, blah blah blah

And why do you think the things you listed are different asking different races?

I'm not interested in this bread crumb conversation.  To jump to the conclusion that one influence, in this case racism, is wholly to blame is asinine.  You're free to think otherwise.

Why is it asinine? Can you name any influence that had more of an impact? Or are you arguing that if blacks had gotten a fair shake in this country from day one that they would still have higher incarceration rates?

So which is it?  First you imply it's reasonable to blame the disparity wholly on racism, then you ask what had MORE of an impact?  It's asinine to say one factor has 100% of the influence.  Which is obvious to anyone with a pulse.

Then we move on to the historical point of view.  If we're discussing whether past racism has influenced black culture the answer is clearly yes.  And in my opinion has a lot to do with the disparities we're discussing.  My opinion, and only an opinion, is that past discretions cannot justify current actions.  Responsibility is necessary, whether for an individual, a culture or race, or a society.