2nd half FT attempts -- Texas 26 Kstate 0 ( and last 27 min, Tex 32 Ksu 0)

[wabash909]

The problem I see is that due to the shitty recruiting and roster turnover, there is a high probability that that this could be a downward trend if it's not corrected.

That's what I am concerned with.  It's not about missing out on the NCAA's one season.  It's about projecting the next five.

A school like Syracuse, UCONN or Louisville or any of the elites mentioned will go to an NIT every once in a while and then infuse the program with top echelon recruiting to reset the course of the program.  That's what I'm not seeing right now.

Perhaps, but I think we've got a FR-SO base that can win if Frank keeps them all around. Of course, that is a big question.

Depends what our expectations for winning are.  Trying to win a league title and make deep runs in the tournament or being a fringe bubble NCAA/NIT team on an annual basis?

The FR-SO base is a nice group, but their ceiling from my perspective is an average to slightly above average team in this league.    

We know it takes elite talent, at least a pro/NBA player or two on your roster to win at a high level in this conference.  It's an absolute given.

KU, Baylor, Texas clearly will have it.  West Virginia will always have some elite talent with Huggins.  So, we better get to a point where we are doing the same or this season will be more of the norm and not the exception.

[Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!)]

due to the shitty recruiting

"Credibility Lost: The true story of Wabash909"

relative to the big 12, it's below average.  Looking at the "new" big 12, KU, UT, Baylor, OSU, WVU are all better.  We are probably equal to ISU and OU.  So when you look ahead, we're better than TCU and TT and in a class that puts us battling for 6-8 place.  Frank is losing these games before he plays them.

 

[MakeItRain]

due to the shitty recruiting

"Credibility Lost: The true story of Wabash909"

relative to the big 12, it's below average.  Looking at the "new" big 12, KU, UT, Baylor, OSU, WVU are all better.  We are probably equal to ISU and OU.  So when you look ahead, we're better than TCU and TT and in a class that puts us battling for 6-8 place.  Frank is losing these games before he plays them.

No matter how you slice it the recruiting doesn't even approach shitty.  So since the recruiting is so bad you two must think that Frank is the best strategic coach in the conference, right?

[wabash909]

due to the shitty recruiting

"Credibility Lost: The true story of Wabash909"

 

Yep. Shitty recruiting is not signing Semi Ojeley.  It's shitty recruiting when you have the golden opportunity to sign a high impact, Top 50 small forward who is the brother of a guy on your team and in your own back yard and then wondering why KU, Baylor, and Texas are competing for league titles because they have better players.

But, go ahead and keep taking this personally.

[catzacker]

did I f*cking say it was sh*tty?  I said it was below average. yeah, frank's a f*cking genius sitting at a league standing (6th) that is right around his recruiting standings.

[michigancat]

I think it's reasonable for Florida and UConn fans to expect 1 NIT in 8 seasons, regardless of how many championships they've won.  Expecting to be like Louisville is a stretch? Like Xavier?   I mean, we shouldn't be afraid of having expectations.   They aren't bad things.  If our whole point is just to be mediocre, then f*ck it.  quit playing.

Are you willing to fire a coach at KSU if he goes to 2 NIT's in 8 seasons because Xavier did better? If not, what the eff is the point of your heroic expectations? I mean what in the world are you trying to do here? Just aimlessly bitch?

Also, I'm of the belief that you know what you have in a coach by now.  So, this is frank.  This is K-State.  This is what we'll be. 

The only problem is that his recruiting HAS evolved and improved since 2008. He doesn't land Upshaw or Gipson in his first three classes because he gets on them too late. Angel is far and away the best HS guard he's landed.

On the court, he completely dumped an offense midseason (which I don't really like, but still.) Just because you choose to ignore the change in Frank doesn't mean it isn't happening.

The FR-SO base is a nice group, but their ceiling from my perspective is an average to slightly above average team in this league.   

That's what they are now. Are you saying the freshmen and sophomores have already hit their ceiling?

[Dugout DickStone]

Missing on Semi would be bad.

[michigancat]

Missing on Semi would be bad.

Only if a similar decent player (from anywhere) is not landed.

[catzacker]

I think it's reasonable for Florida and UConn fans to expect 1 NIT in 8 seasons, regardless of how many championships they've won.  Expecting to be like Louisville is a stretch? Like Xavier?   I mean, we shouldn't be afraid of having expectations.   They aren't bad things.  If our whole point is just to be mediocre, then f*ck it.  quit playing.

Are you willing to fire a coach at KSU if he goes to 2 NIT's in 8 seasons because Xavier did better? If not, what the eff is the point of your heroic expectations? I mean what in the world are you trying to do here? Just aimlessly bitch?

Also, I'm of the belief that you know what you have in a coach by now.  So, this is frank.  This is K-State.  This is what we'll be. 

The only problem is that his recruiting HAS evolved and improved since 2008. He doesn't land Upshaw or Gipson in his first three classes because he gets on them too late. Angel is far and away the best HS guard he's landed.

On the court, he completely dumped an offense midseason (which I don't really like, but still.) Just because you choose to ignore the change in Frank doesn't mean it isn't happening.

The FR-SO base is a nice group, but their ceiling from my perspective is an average to slightly above average team in this league.   

That's what they are now. Are you saying the freshmen and sophomores have already hit their ceiling?

-Not fire after this year - but it's a year in which he didn't meet expectations. atleast imo.   that's the point.  you have to establish the years in which a coach does or doesn't meet expectations in order to determine if this is the coach you want. 

-frank is who he is.  this team is who it is.   landing upshaw is great, but we've missed out on the guys that would have really mattered.  whether it's boynton, latwill (regardless), tony mitchell (regardless), cauley, smart, ellis, semi, among others....doesn't matter to me who we recruited against to get them, the point is elite talent doesn't exist in KSU.  average talent does...average talent that has a <50% chance of getting to their senior year.  Angel is so overrated on this board.  I can't believe you're falling in the "frank's a genius for changing offenses" camp.  You mean the offense where we gave the ball to pullen to score?  What miracle changes has frank made this year? 

[michigancat]

-Not fire after this year - but it's a year in which he didn't meet expectations. atleast imo.   that's the point.  you have to establish the years in which a coach does or doesn't meet expectations in order to determine if this is the coach you want. 

See, I think he's doing fine this year. A game or two before now is all it would have taken to get us off the bubble, most likely.  It isn't like we're falling off a cliff or there is some huge gap between what the team is and what your expectations are.
[/quote]

-frank is who he is.  this team is who it is.   landing upshaw is great, but we've missed out on the guys that would have really mattered.  whether it's boynton, latwill (regardless), tony mitchell (regardless), cauley, smart, ellis, semi, among others....doesn't matter to me who we recruited against to get them, the point is elite talent doesn't exist in KSU.  average talent does...average talent that has a <50% chance of getting to their senior year.   

Why should we expect elite talent at KSU? With or without Frank? What's wrong with moving from average to slightly above average? I would like to see recruiting improve, just like you. And I think it will, based on the 2011 and 2012 classes, (which you choose to ignore because we missed some elite guys.)

I can't believe you're falling in the "frank's a genius for changing offenses" camp.  You mean the offense where we gave the ball to pullen to score?

I'm not - it's just an example of him changing, which you said he can't/won't do, despite clear evidence to the contrary.
   

[kim carnes]

-Not fire after this year - but it's a year in which he didn't meet expectations. atleast imo.   that's the point.  you have to establish the years in which a coach does or doesn't meet expectations in order to determine if this is the coach you want. 

See, I think he's doing fine this year. A game or two before now is all it would have taken to get us off the bubble, most likely.  It isn't like we're falling off a cliff or there is some huge gap between what the team is and what your expectations are.

-frank is who he is.  this team is who it is.   landing upshaw is great, but we've missed out on the guys that would have really mattered.  whether it's boynton, latwill (regardless), tony mitchell (regardless), cauley, smart, ellis, semi, among others....doesn't matter to me who we recruited against to get them, the point is elite talent doesn't exist in KSU.  average talent does...average talent that has a <50% chance of getting to their senior year.   

Why should we expect elite talent at KSU? With or without Frank? What's wrong with moving from average to slightly above average? I would like to see recruiting improve, just like you. And I think it will, based on the 2011 and 2012 classes, (which you choose to ignore because we missed some elite guys.)

I can't believe you're falling in the "frank's a genius for changing offenses" camp.  You mean the offense where we gave the ball to pullen to score?

I'm not - it's just an example of him changing, which you said he can't/won't do, despite clear evidence to the contrary.
   
[/quote]

why do you hate bill again?

[wabash909]

The FR-SO base is a nice group, but their ceiling from my perspective is an average to slightly above average team in this league.    

That's what they are now. Are you saying the freshmen and sophomores have already hit their ceiling?

Basically, yes.  Based on a snapshot of what we currently have in the program compared to the rest of the league.

What leads you to believe any differently?

Relative to KU, Baylor we have considerably less talent.  Relative to the young nucleus and the top 10 class at Texas? Texas is definitely more talented.  Huggins has as much or more returning.  OSU has nice crop of young talent and an emerging star in Nash.  ISU is more talented this year and the Mayor can recruit.  

It's a solid group, not taking anything away from it.  I just don't see where we overcompensate the gap in relation to the rest of the league.

[ChiComCat]

Angel is pretty good.  The reason this board "overrates" him because a lot of us see what he can become.  He has more intensity than anyone on the team this year and, as a freshman, is having a lot of the offense through him.  When he makes a good play, we see him making that play more often for 3 more years.  That is why some of us may get too excited.

And when did your standards rise so high on recruiting?  Is it realistic?  Do you think we will be beating out Kentucky/Florida/KU on a regular basis?  I'm all for us going after them because I want a 5* as much as the next guy, but recruiting has gone national and being a local kid means very little.  Its just not realistic to expect us to win those battles on a regular basis.  You fight them because its worth the ones you can steal.  Louisville (Pitino) wanted Angel, that was a good victory.  Honestly, no idea who else wanted Upshaw, but I'm sure we beat out some higher level schools for him.  These are good wins.  LatWill and Mitchell are irrelevant because they weren't going to play.  That makes us 2-5 with what you listed +Angel.  I think thats fine compared to who we're up against

[ChiComCat]

The FR-SO base is a nice group, but their ceiling from my perspective is an average to slightly above average team in this league.   

That's what they are now. Are you saying the freshmen and sophomores have already hit their ceiling?

Basically, yes.

What leads you to believe any differently?

Relative to KU, Baylor we have considerably less talent.  Relative to the young nucleus and the top 10 class at Texas? Texas is definitely more talented.  Huggins has as much or more returning.  OSU has nice crop of young talent and an emerging star in Nash.  ISU is more talented this year and the Mayor can recruit. 

It's a solid group, not taking anything away from it.  I just don't see where we overcompensate the gap in relation to the rest of the league.

We play younger players than a majority of the league.  I expect this experience to help them improve more.  ISU doesn't so much recruit, they get transfers.   The method works to get a bad team to a decent team quickly, but isn't very sustainable.  There aren't a whole lot of teams letting good players become available.  At some point, you have to bring in talented freshman which I see as the transition that we're in.

[MakeItRain]

[catzacker]

why do you hate bill again?

i know.  at least I'm consistent. 

[Stevesie60]

We came in late and Upshaw chose us over Georgetown (Big Man U), Lousiville, and Fresno State, which is where he's from. I think we're fine, not good or great, recruiting. We'll never have the 08 class again, but we're making progress. I think having Lamont on staff is especially going to help. The biggest thing is if we start keeping players for 4 years, and I think we will make more of an effort to do that. I can't feel too sympathetic about the JUCO players or transfers that come in and then are asked to leave after a year. They should know what's going to happen at this point. I just hate running of players that came in as freshmen.

[ednksu]

Missing on Semi would be bad.

Only if a similar decent player (from anywhere) is not landed.

wasn't it russel over denmon?

[sys]

when you recruit all 13 spots, you are going to have transfers.  it is inevitable.  the only way to avoid that is to recruit at least 2-3 just happy to be there guys.  those transfers are painful to fans, but they don't hurt the teams talent level.


i very much agree with what michigancat said about semi ojeleye, only with the additional assertion that i think he will very likely prove to have been substantially overrated.

[kim carnes]

when you recruit all 13 spots, you are going to have transfers.  it is inevitable.  the only way to avoid that is to recruit at least 2-3 just happy to be there guys.  those transfers are painful to fans, but they don't hurt the teams talent level.


i very much agree with what michigancat said about semi ojeleye, only with the additional assertion that i think he will very likely prove to have been substantially overrated.

i don't think our players are transferring voluntarily.

[kso_FAN]

when you recruit all 13 spots, you are going to have transfers.  it is inevitable.  the only way to avoid that is to recruit at least 2-3 just happy to be there guys.  those transfers are painful to fans, but they don't hurt the teams talent level.


i very much agree with what michigancat said about semi ojeleye, only with the additional assertion that i think he will very likely prove to have been substantially overrated.

Of course you are going to have some, but we are setting the bar pretty high. And IMO too much roster turnover isn't good for a program, even if you aren't losing great players.

[sys]

i don't think our players are transferring voluntarily.

in the great majority of cases, i agree, though some of them might think they are.

[sys]

IMO too much roster turnover isn't good for a program, even if you aren't losing great players.

i agree with you, i don't like it myself.  just pointing out that the people that have stated that we'd have more talent with a different style of roster mgmt are wrong.

[MichiganisGood]

You guys got screwed, the only time I've ever seen a difference in FT's/fouls like that are homer jobs from big 10 schools when they play @IU or @MSU, and even then I'm not sure I've ever seen the gap be that large.. No excuse for that, your coach better have been bitching up a storm in the post game presser..

[nicname]

So I re-read the posts in this thread, especially between you and I MIR, and I've come to the conclusion that we were arguing for the sake of arguing.  Or basically, you were insinuating that I meant things that I never said.  26-0 is pretty bad, we'll find out how bad tomorrow after I rewatch the second half.  All I was saying was that we get called for a lot of fouls because we foul more than most teams do.  I think everyone would agree with that.  When we play well we also force other teams to foul us (especially on shots) more than they usually do.  Actually, when we play really well we make tons of jumpers as well.  Well, we hacked and fouled a shitload and didn't make UT foul us.  This is the case at least from what I saw in the first half.

preemptive :dnr


19:25 – Angel gets away with a shove off
18:59 – Same possession Jamar gets away with throwning his man to the floor
18:50 – Same possession Wangamane tackles Jamar, no foul ball out of bounds to KSU
18:47 – Same possession Gip throws Chapman to the floor, no foul called.  Possession ends in missed 3 from Angel (it was a good look)
18:32 – Kabongo beats Angel, might have been fouled on way to hoop, no call, scores anyway. I think this was just acting by Kabongo.  Nice no-call.
18:20 – Gip may have been bumped down low by Champan (replay shows that there was no foul by Chapman, another good no call.
18:18 – Same possession Jamar and Wangamane get called for an LOL double-foul. This occurs while trying to rebound Gips miss.  (score 4-0 UT at this point.)
17:53 – Jamar gets away with shove of (he’s been doing this constantly) while getting a pick up top.  Jamar goes low to receive the pass on opposite block. Chapman hacks on the shot by Jamar.  Foul called Jamar to shoot two.
17:49 – Kabongo charges into Will near midcourt.  Charge called, good call, crowd boos.
17:27 – Wangamene loses Gip and gets a pass down low for an easy dunk.  He traveled on the dunk attempt but not call. Pretty obvious travel.
17:07 – Holmes gets away with an illegal screen. Kabongo gets freed for a drive to the hoop.  Gip makes a pussy reach in foul on the shot.  Kabongo makes it for an and one. Foul should have been called on the screen. Gip made matters worse by not playing defense. He barely touched him but made the arm motion going down that is going to get called every time. 
16:28 – Kabongo gets by Will and drives to the hoop Gip and someone JO help on the drive down low. Gip makes a clear blocking foul on Kabongo on the shot. Foul called. Shot goes in.
16:18 – Jaylen bond gets called for an off the ball foul battling for position.  Jamar is very good at getting guys to foul him in these situations. It wasn’t a blatant foul but easily callable and you can tell the refs have been trying to clean up the game from the tip. 
16:10 – Same possession, after a Spardling save JO ends up with the ball near the hoop, bond gets called for a foul on the shot.  I believe he made contact with JO’s lower body, or reached hard to tell.  Crowd boos (2nd booing btw), replay looks less like a foul than live shot, but still easily callable and refs have been tight all game.
15:56 – I was about to say that Jamar got away with a hack down low, but refs blew a late whistle and called the foul on the floor.

Under 16 TO (15:56) – KSU 9 possible fouls, 4 called. UT 7 possible fouls, 6 called.  Refs blew traveling call on Wangamane.  Score 11-9 UT.

15:46 or so (clock is malfunctioning on espn3) JO gets away with a trip/ illegal screen. Then Rodney is falls on dude who got tripped. Good no call on the second one. 
15:20 – Lewis? gets away with possible reach as Diaz drives with shot clock running out.  Diaz makes hoop.
15:01 – Good clean block by Southwell.
14:51 - clean clock by Chapman on Diaz.
14:36 - another clean block by Chapman on diaz.
14:34 - Diaz has position on Holmes for rebound and Holmes shoves him in the back.  Foul called.
14:17  - Shane DOBs Chapman. Very nice
13:20 – JO fouls Brown to prevent a layup.  Good hard foul by JO.
13:12 – Chapman goes for block on shot by Diaz. Clear foul. Foul called.
13:05 – Irving gets called for a bump near midcourt on Brown.  Brown flails to get the whistle.  Bad call IMO.  Frank sits Tay. ?SMH
11:54 – McClellan flails to get a foul called on McGruder on a lay up attempt. Good no call.

Under 12 TO (11:54) KSU 2 probable fouls IMO 2 called except that Tay got jobbed on his foul and JO got away with one.  UT 3  possible fouls, 2 called.  Score KSU 16-15

10:32 – KSU dicks around and runs shot clock down to nothing. Angel drives and gets stuffed. Good no cal. UT blocks the follow. Another good no call.
10:07 – Diaz slaps Kabongo in the face as Kabongo drives past for a layup.  No call
9:51 – Same Possession, Brown drives and a foul is called on Diaz on the shot.  Looked like Diaz had a hand on Brown’s back but from this angle I can’t tell if he really fouled him. 
9:51 – On KSU in bound Kabongo grabs Angel. Foul called. Good call. Crowd boos (3 memorable boos so far)
9:40 – Shane fouls McClellan to prevent an alley-oop.  Good call. Good foul.
9:32 – Angel gets away with another shove off.
9:10 - Same possession, Angel forced to drive again with shot clock running down.  Wangamene draws the charge on Angel.  Good call. 
8:35 – McClellan gets called for blocking off the ball against Will.  Good off the ball whistle.
8:00 – Gipson gets called for a reach.  I don’t think he really reached like to steal the ball, but he had his hands in as Wangamene cleared and made sure contact with his harms.  Easy Call.
7:37 – Good block by Wangamene on Spradling drive.  No call. I watched this three times looking for a foul.
7:34 – Angel called for a foul blocking on a run out lay up by UT.  I thought the block was clean. Watched it 3 times.  Bad call.
7:00 – Bond gets called for foul on McGruder FT line pull-up J.  Ticky tack foul but refs have been calling it tight.  Bond should know better.
5:35 – Fran thinks that Diaz gets away with Offensive Interferene on alley opp attempt from McGruder.  I don’t know the rule here.  But whatevs. IT looked to me like if he would have caught the ball no one would have noticed anyway.
4:47 – Will gets called for blocking on a Julian Lewis drive.  Will clearly got him with the body on the shot. Good call.
4:22 – Looked like Wangemene got away with a bit of a reach while trapping Will on the wing. No Call
4:20 – Same possession, Diaz gets away with a foul on rebound attempt.
4:14 – JO shoves Wangamene into the goalpost padding. No call.
3:24 – JO fouls Wangamene on Wangamene putback attempt.  Easy call.
1:36 – Jamar pushes McClellan in the back even though another EMAW had position on McClellan for the rebound.  Good call.  Jamar agrees.
:03 – Good block by KSU as Brown drives into the post. 

Stanza – KSU 10 possible fouls, 7 called.  One of the called fouls was BS on the Angel block.
UT – 4 possible fouls, 3 called. 

First half – KSU 21 possible fouls, 13 called (official stats have KSU at 14 so I must have missed one somewhere. KSU also got jobbed on the travel and IMO the Irving and Angel fouls.   UT – 14 possible fouls, 11 called.  Fran thinks UT got jobbed on Diaz alley oop, meh. 

Obviously the second half is what people are pissed about, but this takes a long time and I’m tired (it’s 1:35 AM).  Interesting in this half is that KSU actually got the good lead in the cleanest portion of the game. Not surprisingly it occurred when Rodney and Will were draining threes.  Funny how making shots helps the team a lot. I really couldn’t pay attention to offense/ defense execution much as I was basically just scanning the court for what IMO looked like fouls.  Gip and Tay were the only ones (I might have forgotten someone) who got called for fouls out on the perimeter for KSU.

Second half will come sometime tomorrow.  I may be proven wrong, UT may have gotten away with rape in the 2nd half.  We’ll see.

Jesus Christ, I mean I don't even know.  Nic, you literally don't understand what is happening here.  There isn't a person on thee board who said K-State didn't foul that much.  You wasted your time focused on the wrong thing. Zero is the issue, zero, zero, zero.  How is that so hard to understand?  The absolute worst no call of the day was in the first half and you didn't even mention it is your precious little game diary.  Shane was absolutely mauled by Clint Chapman when Shane dunked on his face anyway, no call.  Not only was there no call but I'm pretty sure there was a blow to the head that should have been a flagrant 1.  As I said yesterday before you started this, don't waste your time.

Your refusal to live in reality is frustrating.  I wasn't focused on the wrong thing?  I looked at all possible/ probable fouls situations for both teams.  Chapman didn't even foul Shane.  I've watched that play numerous times.  Shane didn't react to a possible foul.  The announcers didn't notice anything.  It didn't even look like a foul when you really take a look at it.  If your whole beef is that we should have shot more than zero FTs in the second half, then I agree.  I'm sure the refs missed a call or two, in fact, I know they did late.  My whole original point was that we foul all the time and didn't make them foul.  That is all I said originally and then you misconstrued my words and started talking nonsense.  It's cool though.  It's what you do.  Everyone melts down in their own way. 

I'm sure that when I take a closer look at the second half the both a) we probably should have shot more than 0 FTs b) It probably wasn't very many more than that because we didn't force UT to foul us.