Author Topic: Criticisms of Frank Thread (Official)  (Read 34116 times)

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Offline SdK

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Re: Criticisms of Frank Thread (Official)
« Reply #125 on: January 29, 2012, 05:13:25 PM »
calling a timeout was stupid.  come down and pop off your 3.  much higher % play than letting ou's coaches tell everyone to foul, exchange fts, and then (fortunately) get off a 3 in 5 seconds.

I don't disagree with that philosophy, but we got about as good a look got McGruds as we could have asked for.

While I do not disagree. I've never seen Rodney shoot or make a three that was beyond the minimum for 3pt range. I'm not sure what correlation this has to anything or if this is even irregular for 3pt shooters in general.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Criticisms of Frank Thread (Official)
« Reply #126 on: January 29, 2012, 05:28:39 PM »
calling a timeout was stupid.  come down and pop off your 3.  much higher % play than letting ou's coaches tell everyone to foul, exchange fts, and then (fortunately) get off a 3 in 5 seconds.

I don't disagree with that philosophy, but we got about as good a look got McGruds as we could have asked for.

That one didn't have the TO. The TO led to the JO foul.

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Re: Criticisms of Frank Thread (Official)
« Reply #127 on: January 29, 2012, 07:25:42 PM »
calling a timeout was stupid.  come down and pop off your 3.  much higher % play than letting ou's coaches tell everyone to foul, exchange fts, and then (fortunately) get off a 3 in 5 seconds.

this.  doesn't trust the pg's to get it to rod?  Or just stupid over coaching.

Offline pissclams

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Re: Criticisms of Frank Thread (Official)
« Reply #128 on: January 29, 2012, 09:13:22 PM »
calling a timeout was stupid.  come down and pop off your 3.  much higher % play than letting ou's coaches tell everyone to foul, exchange fts, and then (fortunately) get off a 3 in 5 seconds.

this.  doesn't trust the pg's to get it to rod?  Or just stupid over coaching.

weird because frank didn't call a time out versus west virginia


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Offline CNS

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Re: Criticisms of Frank Thread (Official)
« Reply #129 on: January 30, 2012, 09:31:48 AM »
I can't believe this thread hasn't gotten all extra serious and meltdowny after last game.


Offline JKEYS

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Re: Criticisms of Frank Thread (Official)
« Reply #130 on: January 30, 2012, 11:19:45 AM »
Inability to address getting back-doored repeatedly?  :dunno:
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Offline bozocat

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Re: Criticisms of Frank Thread (Official)
« Reply #131 on: January 30, 2012, 05:40:30 PM »
Inability to address getting back-doored repeatedly?  :dunno:

Nothing worse than getting back-doored repeatedly.    :sdeek:

Offline SwiftCat

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Re: Criticisms of Frank Thread (Official)
« Reply #132 on: January 30, 2012, 11:54:25 PM »
Inability to address getting back-doored repeatedly?  :dunno:

It's part of the defense. Overplay the passing lanes. It's going to happen and he doesn't care.

Offline mcmwcat

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Re: Criticisms of Frank Thread (Official)
« Reply #133 on: January 31, 2012, 08:30:03 AM »
Inability to address getting back-doored repeatedly?  :dunno:

It's part of the defense. Overplay the passing lanes. It's going to happen and he doesn't care.

he cares

Offline 5thYearJr

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Re: Criticisms of Frank Thread (Official)
« Reply #134 on: January 31, 2012, 09:48:38 AM »
Inability to address getting back-doored repeatedly?  :dunno:

It's part of the defense. Overplay the passing lanes. It's going to happen and he doesn't care.

he cares

doesn't it make more sense to play sound assignment defense than to overplay passing lanes. I'm just saying the success rate of tipping a pass or intercepting it is pretty slim. But that opens up a back door cut every time for an easy basket every time. i think he cares about it but can't fathom not being an attacking in your face defense.

Offline bigwillie20

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Re: Criticisms of Frank Thread (Official)
« Reply #135 on: January 31, 2012, 09:53:24 AM »
I was really pissed about all the backdoors but I was over it before this year started.  It's just the way we're going to continue to play defense so it's just something we'll have to live with happening to us.  Nothing we can do about it.

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: Criticisms of Frank Thread (Official)
« Reply #136 on: January 31, 2012, 10:04:54 AM »
Inability to address getting back-doored repeatedly?  :dunno:

It's part of the defense. Overplay the passing lanes. It's going to happen and he doesn't care.

he cares

doesn't it make more sense to play sound assignment defense than to overplay passing lanes. I'm just saying the success rate of tipping a pass or intercepting it is pretty slim. But that opens up a back door cut every time for an easy basket every time. i think he cares about it but can't fathom not being an attacking in your face defense.

We give up maybe 2 to 3 back doors a game because of the way we play defense. But we also force 15-20 turnovers. I think the good outweighs the bad, and it has every season Frank has been here.

Offline 5thYearJr

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Re: Criticisms of Frank Thread (Official)
« Reply #137 on: January 31, 2012, 10:09:53 AM »
I was really pissed about all the backdoors but I was over it before this year started.  It's just the way we're going to continue to play defense so it's just something we'll have to live with happening to us.  Nothing we can do about it.

than we'll also have to live with being a bottom half team.
i used to love frank but there are so many things that drive me up the wall when watching this team that i'm done with this little charade. Delonte leaving was the worst thing that ever happened to this team.
they can't hit free throws, they can't hit open shots, they play scared, the "offense" is a joke, the "defense" is a worse joke.  :flush: :bang:

Offline Stevesie60

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Re: Criticisms of Frank Thread (Official)
« Reply #138 on: January 31, 2012, 10:21:04 AM »
I was really pissed about all the backdoors but I was over it before this year started.  It's just the way we're going to continue to play defense so it's just something we'll have to live with happening to us.  Nothing we can do about it.

than we'll also have to live with being a bottom half team.
i used to love frank but there are so many things that drive me up the wall when watching this team that i'm done with this little charade. Delonte leaving was the worst thing that ever happened to this team. they can't hit free throws, they can't hit open shots, they play scared, the "offense" is a joke, the "defense" is a worse joke.  :flush: :bang:

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Offline bigwillie20

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Re: Criticisms of Frank Thread (Official)
« Reply #139 on: January 31, 2012, 10:22:29 AM »
I was really pissed about all the backdoors but I was over it before this year started.  It's just the way we're going to continue to play defense so it's just something we'll have to live with happening to us.  Nothing we can do about it.

than we'll also have to live with being a bottom half team.
i used to love frank but there are so many things that drive me up the wall when watching this team that i'm done with this little charade. Delonte leaving was the worst thing that ever happened to this team.
they can't hit free throws, they can't hit open shots, they play scared, the "offense" is a joke, the "defense" is a worse joke.  :flush: :bang:

I've learned that it is pointless to get upset about the backdoors, there are so many other things that make a much bigger difference in the game.  Like _Fan said, the good outweighs the bad in this deal.  I mean we probably throw it directly to the opposing team with our guards 5-6 times a game at least, now THAT is something to get angry about  :curse:

Offline mcmwcat

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Re: Criticisms of Frank Thread (Official)
« Reply #140 on: January 31, 2012, 10:26:49 AM »
Inability to address getting back-doored repeatedly?  :dunno:

It's part of the defense. Overplay the passing lanes. It's going to happen and he doesn't care.

he cares

doesn't it make more sense to play sound assignment defense than to overplay passing lanes. I'm just saying the success rate of tipping a pass or intercepting it is pretty slim. But that opens up a back door cut every time for an easy basket every time. i think he cares about it but can't fathom not being an attacking in your face defense.

you're 100% wrong.  read _Fanalysis

http://goEMAW.com/blog/?p=1786

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: Criticisms of Frank Thread (Official)
« Reply #141 on: January 31, 2012, 10:36:07 AM »
Inability to address getting back-doored repeatedly?  :dunno:

It's part of the defense. Overplay the passing lanes. It's going to happen and he doesn't care.

he cares

doesn't it make more sense to play sound assignment defense than to overplay passing lanes. I'm just saying the success rate of tipping a pass or intercepting it is pretty slim. But that opens up a back door cut every time for an easy basket every time. i think he cares about it but can't fathom not being an attacking in your face defense.

you're 100% wrong.  read _Fanalysis

http://goEMAW.com/blog/?p=1786

I don't think it will make a difference.

Offline SdK

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Re: Criticisms of Frank Thread (Official)
« Reply #142 on: February 01, 2012, 12:03:30 AM »
So on ISU's posession right before the end of the first half, Frank switches to zone. That looked awfully familiar..........like the end of the OU game. If you can't beat em, copy them?  :dunno:

Offline gatoveintisiete

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Re: Criticisms of Frank Thread (Official)
« Reply #143 on: February 01, 2012, 12:41:15 AM »
Inability to address getting back-doored repeatedly?  :dunno:

It's part of the defense. Overplay the passing lanes. It's going to happen and he doesn't care.


he cares

doesn't it make more sense to play sound assignment defense than to overplay passing lanes. I'm just saying the success rate of tipping a pass or intercepting it is pretty slim. But that opens up a back door cut every time for an easy basket every time. i think he cares about it but can't fathom not being an attacking in your face defense.

you're 100% wrong.  read _Fanalysis

http://goEMAW.com/blog/?p=1786

I don't think it will make a difference.
I just read your analysis on Franks defense, then I went to statsheet and looked through our schedules in the martin era and something stood out to me.  While your argument for our statistics with this strategy makes sense as a season overview, it is not really very representative of how basketball really works.  For example the large body of our schedules are made up of teams that are less talented than us that we could beat with a lot of different strategies, but Franks works especially well against them because they are not solid with the ball and don't have the ability to break us down with penetration. That leaves the games that in my mind really matter, the games against equal or more talent and sometimes just one or two dynamic offensive players.  I would love to see our defensive numbers against teams with at least one dynamic threat off the dribble.  Examples of players like this would be Jimmer, colorado dudes, pierre jackson, ole miss guards, james anderson, royce, kyrie irving, wva jones/ bryant, the list goes on.  It would be really easy to say that those guys are nba talent and of course you will lose more than your share to them, but my point is there are just guys you can't pressure and contain one on one, and these are the guys that torch us every time.  If Frank wants to play his style against everyone else I think that's great, but to not have a different strategy for the guys no one on our team can guard is just  :bang:  Thoughts and hopefully stats?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 12:56:24 AM by gatoveintisiete »
it’s not like I’m tired of WINNING, but dude, let me catch my breath.

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: Criticisms of Frank Thread (Official)
« Reply #144 on: February 01, 2012, 08:47:55 AM »
I just read your analysis on Franks defense, then I went to statsheet and looked through our schedules in the martin era and something stood out to me.  While your argument for our statistics with this strategy makes sense as a season overview, it is not really very representative of how basketball really works.  For example the large body of our schedules are made up of teams that are less talented than us that we could beat with a lot of different strategies, but Franks works especially well against them because they are not solid with the ball and don't have the ability to break us down with penetration. That leaves the games that in my mind really matter, the games against equal or more talent and sometimes just one or two dynamic offensive players.  I would love to see our defensive numbers against teams with at least one dynamic threat off the dribble.  Examples of players like this would be Jimmer, colorado dudes, pierre jackson, ole miss guards, james anderson, royce, kyrie irving, wva jones/ bryant, the list goes on.  It would be really easy to say that those guys are nba talent and of course you will lose more than your share to them, but my point is there are just guys you can't pressure and contain one on one, and these are the guys that torch us every time.  If Frank wants to play his style against everyone else I think that's great, but to not have a different strategy for the guys no one on our team can guard is just  :bang:  Thoughts and hopefully stats?

Frank isn't likely to change his philosophy on defense, and I do have some stats for you. Here is a breakdown of Frank's teams in his career. It would seem that his philosophy is fairly sound because starting with the Top 50 our offensive efficiency is better than our defensive efficiency. IMHO that's pretty good, there aren't very many teams that are going to be really good against Top 25 or Top 10.



I understand being down on Frank, K-State basketball, players, whatever at this point. The last few weeks have been frustrating, but even in points of frustration, you've got to let things play out. At this point I think this is probably a .500 Big 12 team that will sit on the bubble and go to the NIT. However, I'm not even in the ball park for Frank being on the hot seat or anything like that. He's done enough so far in his career that IMHO we can be patient.

Offline gatoveintisiete

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Re: Criticisms of Frank Thread (Official)
« Reply #145 on: February 01, 2012, 09:42:57 AM »
I just read your analysis on Franks defense, then I went to statsheet and looked through our schedules in the martin era and something stood out to me.  While your argument for our statistics with this strategy makes sense as a season overview, it is not really very representative of how basketball really works.  For example the large body of our schedules are made up of teams that are less talented than us that we could beat with a lot of different strategies, but Franks works especially well against them because they are not solid with the ball and don't have the ability to break us down with penetration. That leaves the games that in my mind really matter, the games against equal or more talent and sometimes just one or two dynamic offensive players.  I would love to see our defensive numbers against teams with at least one dynamic threat off the dribble.  Examples of players like this would be Jimmer, colorado dudes, pierre jackson, ole miss guards, james anderson, royce, kyrie irving, wva jones/ bryant, the list goes on.  It would be really easy to say that those guys are nba talent and of course you will lose more than your share to them, but my point is there are just guys you can't pressure and contain one on one, and these are the guys that torch us every time.  If Frank wants to play his style against everyone else I think that's great, but to not have a different strategy for the guys no one on our team can guard is just  :bang:  Thoughts and hopefully stats?

Frank isn't likely to change his philosophy on defense, and I do have some stats for you. Here is a breakdown of Frank's teams in his career. It would seem that his philosophy is fairly sound because starting with the Top 50 our offensive efficiency is better than our defensive efficiency. IMHO that's pretty good, there aren't very many teams that are going to be really good against Top 25 or Top 10.



I understand being down on Frank, K-State basketball, players, whatever at this point. The last few weeks have been frustrating, but even in points of frustration, you've got to let things play out. At this point I think this is probably a .500 Big 12 team that will sit on the bubble and go to the NIT. However, I'm not even in the ball park for Frank being on the hot seat or anything like that. He's done enough so far in his career that IMHO we can be patient.

First let me say that I am not down on Frank or the team.  Could you address these questions?

1. Do you see a correllation between getting abused off the dribble (which creates points in the paint, kickouts for open 3s, FTR for the other team, and foul trouble for us) and us getting beat ?
2. Why would changing approaches constantly throughout the game to keep a  Royce White off balance be a bad thing? 
3. Frank says he doesn't like teams to feel comfortable, so when teams find something as basic as a one on one missmatch, why would we let them get comfortable exploiting it endlessly?

I love Frank and would be happy with him if he never changed, but I don't think you can point to very many championship coaches that when faced with a situation where they were overmatched partially or totally took the attitude of eff it, this is what we do, it's never worked before, but today we are going to play even harder and execute even better. 
it’s not like I’m tired of WINNING, but dude, let me catch my breath.

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: Criticisms of Frank Thread (Official)
« Reply #146 on: February 01, 2012, 09:53:37 AM »
First let me say that I am not down on Frank or the team.  Could you address these questions?

1. Do you see a correllation between getting abused off the dribble (which creates points in the paint, kickouts for open 3s, FTR for the other team, and foul trouble for us) and us getting beat ?
2. Why would changing approaches constantly throughout the game to keep a  Royce White off balance be a bad thing?  
3. Frank says he doesn't like teams to feel comfortable, so when teams find something as basic as a one on one missmatch, why would we let them get comfortable exploiting it endlessly?

I love Frank and would be happy with him if he never changed, but I don't think you can point to very many championship coaches that when faced with a situation where they were overmatched partially or totally took the attitude of eff it, this is what we do, it's never worked before, but today we are going to play even harder and execute even better.  

1. Yes. When we don't get teams sped up and create turnovers or tough shots, we get beat more often than not. Last night's first half compared to the second half would be a good example, though we never really turned ISU over much in either half. The first half we made it tough enough that ISU had less than 1.0 points per possession, you are going to win most games doing that. But in the 2nd they had nearly 1.4, you aren't going to wins those. A lot of that was do to the difference in perimeter defense from half to half.

2. It wouldn't, but this is something Frank will have to learn or adjust in his philosophy. He really doesn't run different styles of man, right now his only change up is going zone once in a while. Even a guy like Self has shown he'll change up more than most, like going triangle and 2 agaisnt us in the past couple of years. But that's probably something that took him time to get to, and of course he has really good players. But yeah, Frank is probably going to have to add another change up to his pressure man philosophy and I don't think he's gotten there yet.

3. Yeah. I think he was afraid of his usual change up (zone) because of ISU's shooters. And like I said, besides minor tweaks of where we force the ball or let people catch the ball there isn't much we can do in our man defense. I suppose Frank having us pick up White at half court was a tweak too for the bigs. But I would've certainly done something different, especially in the last possession. If you are playing for OT (which Frank obviously was without the foul) you have to change. Once White when to half court to hold the ball, I probably would've gone zone so you could double him and not let him drive for example. Or stay man, and send a double team from whoever was guarding ISU's worse offense threat on the floor. Frank took a shot staying with his gameplan for the game and as it did often in the 2nd half it didn't work.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 09:58:25 AM by ksu_FAN »

Offline gatoveintisiete

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Re: Criticisms of Frank Thread (Official)
« Reply #147 on: February 01, 2012, 10:15:09 AM »
First let me say that I am not down on Frank or the team.  Could you address these questions?

1. Do you see a correllation between getting abused off the dribble (which creates points in the paint, kickouts for open 3s, FTR for the other team, and foul trouble for us) and us getting beat ?
2. Why would changing approaches constantly throughout the game to keep a  Royce White off balance be a bad thing?  
3. Frank says he doesn't like teams to feel comfortable, so when teams find something as basic as a one on one missmatch, why would we let them get comfortable exploiting it endlessly?

I love Frank and would be happy with him if he never changed, but I don't think you can point to very many championship coaches that when faced with a situation where they were overmatched partially or totally took the attitude of eff it, this is what we do, it's never worked before, but today we are going to play even harder and execute even better.  

1. Yes. When we don't get teams sped up and create turnovers or tough shots, we get beat more often than not. Last night's first half compared to the second half would be a good example, though we never really turned ISU over much in either half. The first half we made it tough enough that ISU had less than 1.0 points per possession, you are going to win most games doing that. But in the 2nd they had nearly 1.4, you aren't going to wins those. A lot of that was do to the difference in perimeter defense from half to half.

2. It wouldn't, but this is something Frank will have to learn or adjust in his philosophy. He really doesn't run different styles of man, right now his only change up is going zone once in a while. Even a guy like Self has shown he'll change up more than most, like going triangle and 2 agaisnt us in the past couple of years. But that's probably something that took him time to get to, and of course he has really good players. But yeah, Frank is probably going to have to add another change up to his pressure man philosophy and I don't think he's gotten there yet.

3. Yeah. I think he was afraid of his usual change up (zone) because of ISU's shooters. And like I said, besides minor tweaks of where we force the ball or let people catch the ball there isn't much we can do in our man defense. I suppose Frank having us pick up White at half court was a tweak too for the bigs. But I would've certainly done something different, especially in the last possession. If you are playing for OT (which Frank obviously was without the foul) you have to change. Once White when to half court to hold the ball, I probably would've gone zone so you could double him and not let him drive for example. Or stay man, and send a double team from whoever was guarding ISU's worse offense threat on the floor. Frank took a shot staying with his gameplan for the game and as it did often in the 2nd half it didn't work.

Ok Agreed, this mystery is solved, Frank will win but probably not win big until he matures as a strategerist.
it’s not like I’m tired of WINNING, but dude, let me catch my breath.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Criticisms of Frank Thread (Official)
« Reply #148 on: February 01, 2012, 10:28:30 AM »
we do worse against the best teams?!?!?  :horrorsurprise:


Offline kso_FAN

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Re: Criticisms of Frank Thread (Official)
« Reply #149 on: February 01, 2012, 10:33:23 AM »
we do worse against the best teams?!?!?  :horrorsurprise:



Yeah. Funny how that works.

Still, I stand by my comments that there are things Frank can learn defensively, but he's still a young coach at this level. I still think overall he's really good, even after the past few weeks.