Author Topic: Year Round School  (Read 16906 times)

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Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Year Round School
« Reply #50 on: May 10, 2011, 08:44:50 PM »
Yeah, there are things about my profession that I absolutely hate doing(plenty that I enjoy too), but the paycheck helps tip the scale to keep me in my profession rather than finding one where I don't encounter such issues.

This can be applied across the board when it comes to why people stay at their job with very few exceptions. 

You are overrating the "calling" part of the teach job.  They are not priests or social workers. 

Higher pay = Higher interest from higher performing individuals.  There are plenty people out there who like to work with children or enjoy teaching concepts to people that don't do so for a living because they make way more money doing whatevs it is they do instead.



Teachers need to do it because they love it. For someone to take up teaching for the great pay will not have your child's best interest at heart. If you want both high pay and a quality teacher, you need to pay for a private school without a union.

Doctors need to practice medicine because they love it. For someone to enter a medical practice for the great pay will not have your best health interest at heart.

This is true, but the threat of a malpractice lawsuit will force them to care.

Actually the threat of a malpractice lawsuit will force them to over care, which is also against the patient's best interest.

This is why any serious health care reform must include reasonable limits on malpractice damages.

Malpractice is under 5% of total costs.  I mean sure you could argue that it accounts for over care which bleeds in to the other metrics.  But it is several magnitudes less of a problem than administrative costs and lack of good primary care and the explosion of specialization and the dominance of out patient hospital care.

Offline john "teach me how to" dougie

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Re: Year Round School
« Reply #51 on: May 10, 2011, 09:15:01 PM »
Yeah, there are things about my profession that I absolutely hate doing(plenty that I enjoy too), but the paycheck helps tip the scale to keep me in my profession rather than finding one where I don't encounter such issues.

This can be applied across the board when it comes to why people stay at their job with very few exceptions. 

You are overrating the "calling" part of the teach job.  They are not priests or social workers. 

Higher pay = Higher interest from higher performing individuals.  There are plenty people out there who like to work with children or enjoy teaching concepts to people that don't do so for a living because they make way more money doing whatevs it is they do instead.



Teachers need to do it because they love it. For someone to take up teaching for the great pay will not have your child's best interest at heart. If you want both high pay and a quality teacher, you need to pay for a private school without a union.

Doctors need to practice medicine because they love it. For someone to enter a medical practice for the great pay will not have your best health interest at heart.

This is true, but the threat of a malpractice lawsuit will force them to care.

Actually the threat of a malpractice lawsuit will force them to over care, which is also against the patient's best interest.

This is why any serious health care reform must include reasonable limits on malpractice damages.

Malpractice is under 5% of total costs.  I mean sure you could argue that it accounts for over care which bleeds in to the other metrics.  But it is several magnitudes less of a problem than administrative costs and lack of good primary care and the explosion of specialization and the dominance of out patient hospital care.

It is more about insurance premiums for doctors, nurses, and hospitals than it is the total amount of all rewards. Premiums are a major factor in the cost of health care.  Depending on specialty, yearly malpractice premiums can be $200k

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Year Round School
« Reply #52 on: May 10, 2011, 09:29:49 PM »
http://www.medicalbillingandcoding.org/medicals-costs-2/

Not sure I agree with everything (obviously the subjective judgements about doctor compensation) but I have yet to see evidence that malpractice is a serious player.  I mean I would love for it to be because it is such an easy fix, but I just don't think it is.  There are plenty of states with state medical boards or caps on maximum awards, and it isn't like they have spectacularly better health outcomes or cheaper rates.  I think it is mostly irrelevant.

Offline Dirty Sanchez

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Re: Year Round School
« Reply #53 on: May 10, 2011, 10:53:28 PM »
http://www.medicalbillingandcoding.org/medicals-costs-2/

Not sure I agree with everything (obviously the subjective judgements about doctor compensation) but I have yet to see evidence that malpractice is a serious player.  I mean I would love for it to be because it is such an easy fix, but I just don't think it is.  There are plenty of states with state medical boards or caps on maximum awards, and it isn't like they have spectacularly better health outcomes or cheaper rates.  I think it is mostly irrelevant.

I clicked on another link on that page and got to state employees that made over $100K last year.  You have lew perkins bilking the taxpayers out of $2.7M, far and away the highest (#2 was 1/5th of that).  bernadette gray-little was 4th at $420K.  Schulz was 10th at $345K.  The rest of the top 10 are uk med.

Then came the shocker.  Ranking #12...uk english prof and ex-uk chancellor robert hemenway.  Really?  We're spending $340K of taxpayer money to keep the gravy train running for a multimillionaire ex-university chancellor. just $5K and $2K less respectively to the KSU and wsu presidents?  On top of that, from poking around on the uk english department website, it doesn't even list him as faculty.  My guess is he doesn't even teach anything.  Just collects a paycheck. 

I guess that's why they call it "liberal" arts.

Offline pike

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Re: Year Round School
« Reply #54 on: May 10, 2011, 11:01:42 PM »
http://www.medicalbillingandcoding.org/medicals-costs-2/

Not sure I agree with everything (obviously the subjective judgements about doctor compensation) but I have yet to see evidence that malpractice is a serious player.  I mean I would love for it to be because it is such an easy fix, but I just don't think it is.  There are plenty of states with state medical boards or caps on maximum awards, and it isn't like they have spectacularly better health outcomes or cheaper rates.  I think it is mostly irrelevant.

I clicked on another link on that page and got to state employees that made over $100K last year.  You have lew perkins bilking the taxpayers out of $2.7M, far and away the highest (#2 was 1/5th of that).  bernadette gray-little was 4th at $420K.  Schulz was 10th at $345K.  The rest of the top 10 are uk med.

Then came the shocker.  Ranking #12...uk english prof and ex-uk chancellor robert hemenway.  Really?  We're spending $340K of taxpayer money to keep the gravy train running for a multimillionaire ex-university chancellor. just $5K and $2K less respectively to the KSU and wsu presidents?  On top of that, from poking around on the uk english department website, it doesn't even list him as faculty.  My guess is he doesn't even teach anything.  Just collects a paycheck. 

I guess that's why they call it "liberal" arts.

Amazing how much money we shell out for such an awful med school

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Year Round School
« Reply #55 on: May 11, 2011, 03:37:14 AM »
http://www.medicalbillingandcoding.org/medicals-costs-2/

Not sure I agree with everything (obviously the subjective judgements about doctor compensation) but I have yet to see evidence that malpractice is a serious player.  I mean I would love for it to be because it is such an easy fix, but I just don't think it is.  There are plenty of states with state medical boards or caps on maximum awards, and it isn't like they have spectacularly better health outcomes or cheaper rates.  I think it is mostly irrelevant.

I clicked on another link on that page and got to state employees that made over $100K last year.  You have lew perkins bilking the taxpayers out of $2.7M, far and away the highest (#2 was 1/5th of that).  bernadette gray-little was 4th at $420K.  Schulz was 10th at $345K.  The rest of the top 10 are uk med.

Then came the shocker.  Ranking #12...uk english prof and ex-uk chancellor robert hemenway.  Really?  We're spending $340K of taxpayer money to keep the gravy train running for a multimillionaire ex-university chancellor. just $5K and $2K less respectively to the KSU and wsu presidents?  On top of that, from poking around on the uk english department website, it doesn't even list him as faculty.  My guess is he doesn't even teach anything.  Just collects a paycheck. 

I guess that's why they call it "liberal" arts.

We pay $212K for Wefald.  Just an FYI.

Offline Dirty Sanchez

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Re: Year Round School
« Reply #56 on: May 11, 2011, 05:14:29 AM »
http://www.medicalbillingandcoding.org/medicals-costs-2/

Not sure I agree with everything (obviously the subjective judgements about doctor compensation) but I have yet to see evidence that malpractice is a serious player.  I mean I would love for it to be because it is such an easy fix, but I just don't think it is.  There are plenty of states with state medical boards or caps on maximum awards, and it isn't like they have spectacularly better health outcomes or cheaper rates.  I think it is mostly irrelevant.

I clicked on another link on that page and got to state employees that made over $100K last year.  You have lew perkins bilking the taxpayers out of $2.7M, far and away the highest (#2 was 1/5th of that).  bernadette gray-little was 4th at $420K.  Schulz was 10th at $345K.  The rest of the top 10 are uk med.

Then came the shocker.  Ranking #12...uk english prof and ex-uk chancellor robert hemenway.  Really?  We're spending $340K of taxpayer money to keep the gravy train running for a multimillionaire ex-university chancellor. just $5K and $2K less respectively to the KSU and wsu presidents?  On top of that, from poking around on the uk english department website, it doesn't even list him as faculty.  My guess is he doesn't even teach anything.  Just collects a paycheck. 

I guess that's why they call it "liberal" arts.

We pay $212K for Wefald.  Just an FYI.

Didn't get that far down on the list.  Also a travesty. 

Offline MeatSauce

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Re: Year Round School
« Reply #57 on: May 11, 2011, 09:12:01 AM »
Good topic. Been debated for yrs. Was gaining popularity in the early 90's  when money was flowing Districts had a 194 day contract with teachers and kids were in session for 186 days. At that time the feeling was we could possibly end up around 220 days. Obviously that didn't happen.

I have always been intrigued with the idea of year round school with one, two, and three week breaks scheduled in. A big issue is the UNION. Unless a big pot of money is associated with this the NEA would fight to the end against it.

**A/C shutoff b/c of summer? please. those things run non-stop without school being in session anyways.

Correct me if I am wrong, but NEA isn't a union everywhere.  They act as a professional organization in Kansas, for instance, but have no bargaining power.  My wife isn't a member of NEA.  NEA has no say in bargaining her contract.  It is all handled by the teachers.   The NEA had no say what so ever in my wife's district possibly going year round a few years ago.  Kansas isn't MO.  The teachers have much less power here than across state line.
Definitely.  The NEA is a powerful union with a lot of clout in DC. It's a matter of if the funding is there to pay teachers what the union feels is fair then they might support it. Otherwise they would fight very hard to see that it doesn't happen,  regardless if it is the right thing to do for kids. Good for your wife...I see no pros. The cons are that you pay monthly dues to a bureaucracy that does nothing (my opinion) to ensure that kids are the focus and that student achievement is the priority.

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Re: Year Round School
« Reply #58 on: May 11, 2011, 09:21:04 AM »
Good topic. Been debated for yrs. Was gaining popularity in the early 90's  when money was flowing Districts had a 194 day contract with teachers and kids were in session for 186 days. At that time the feeling was we could possibly end up around 220 days. Obviously that didn't happen.

I have always been intrigued with the idea of year round school with one, two, and three week breaks scheduled in. A big issue is the UNION. Unless a big pot of money is associated with this the NEA would fight to the end against it.

**A/C shutoff b/c of summer? please. those things run non-stop without school being in session anyways.

Correct me if I am wrong, but NEA isn't a union everywhere.  They act as a professional organization in Kansas, for instance, but have no bargaining power.  My wife isn't a member of NEA.  NEA has no say in bargaining her contract.  It is all handled by the teachers.   The NEA had no say what so ever in my wife's district possibly going year round a few years ago.  Kansas isn't MO.  The teachers have much less power here than across state line.
Definitely.  The NEA is a powerful union with a lot of clout in DC. It's a matter of if the funding is there to pay teachers what the union feels is fair then they might support it. Otherwise they would fight very hard to see that it doesn't happen,  regardless if it is the right thing to do for kids. Good for your wife...I see no pros. The cons are that you pay monthly dues to a bureaucracy that does nothing (my opinion) to ensure that kids are the focus and that student achievement is the priority.

Some NEA's(not sure if KS is doing this or not) provides options for bene's that your district may not.  Also, they cover you legally if you get sued by parents(at least that is what I understand). 

Not sure there is much else there in KS.

Offline SkinnyBenny

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Re: Year Round School
« Reply #59 on: May 11, 2011, 12:52:51 PM »
Some NEA's(not sure if KS is doing this or not) provides options for bene's that your district may not.  Also, they cover you legally if you get sued by parents(at least that is what I understand).  

Not sure there is much else there in KS.


This.  And this is why teachers' unions are important.  I know certain people (who almost always have no idea what it's actually like to be a teacher) have an ingrained hatred of teachers' unions and think they are to blame for most if not all of education's woes, but the legal protection they provide is huge.  "But totally, if you aren't a bad teacher, you won't get sued!" says MeatSauce, having no idea what parents are actually like.  Wrong, MeatSauce.  Wrong.  Good teachers who have done nothing egregious get sued all the time by parents who think their shithead kids can do no wrong and that anything that displeases their child must be the teacher's fault.  Without unions, who's going to protect the teacher in such a case?  How will a teacher that makes under $40K/year hire a decent lawyer to fight unjust charges?

Unions aren't perfect by any means, but they're pretty rough ridin' necessary in cases like that.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 12:55:03 PM by SkinnyBenny »
"walking around mhk and crying in the rain because of love lost is the absolute purest and best thing in the world.  i hope i fall in love during the next few weeks and get my heart broken and it starts raining just to experience it one last time."   --Dlew12

Offline MeatSauce

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Re: Year Round School
« Reply #60 on: May 11, 2011, 01:15:42 PM »
Some NEA's(not sure if KS is doing this or not) provides options for bene's that your district may not.  Also, they cover you legally if you get sued by parents(at least that is what I understand).  

Not sure there is much else there in KS.


This.  And this is why teachers' unions are important.  I know certain people (who almost always have no idea what it's actually like to be a teacher) have an ingrained hatred of teachers' unions and think they are to blame for most if not all of education's woes, but the legal protection they provide is huge.  "But totally, if you aren't a bad teacher, you won't get sued!" says MeatSauce, having no idea what parents are actually like.  Wrong, MeatSauce.  Wrong.  Good teachers who have done nothing egregious get sued all the time by parents who think their shithead kids can do no wrong and that anything that displeases their child must be the teacher's fault.  Without unions, who's going to protect the teacher in such a case?  How will a teacher that makes under $40K/year hire a decent lawyer to fight unjust charges?

Unions aren't perfect by any means, but they're pretty rough ridin' necessary in cases like that.
I was focusing on the bargaining and/or negotiating power of the NEA in regards to salaries and contracted days.  Parents are awful to deal with, believe me I know, and they put teachers in a defenseless position sometimes.  In that aspect, of offering legal assistance to educators, I do appreciate what the NEA does. Assuming my teacher is in the right, of course.

Offline 0.42

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Re: Year Round School
« Reply #61 on: May 11, 2011, 01:54:57 PM »
DID NOT READ most of this thread, but I agree with SkinnyBenny on whatever he says in here

Offline john "teach me how to" dougie

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Re: Year Round School
« Reply #62 on: May 11, 2011, 02:33:47 PM »
Some NEA's(not sure if KS is doing this or not) provides options for bene's that your district may not.  Also, they cover you legally if you get sued by parents(at least that is what I understand).  

Not sure there is much else there in KS.


This.  And this is why teachers' unions are important.  I know certain people (who almost always have no idea what it's actually like to be a teacher) have an ingrained hatred of teachers' unions and think they are to blame for most if not all of education's woes, but the legal protection they provide is huge.  "But totally, if you aren't a bad teacher, you won't get sued!" says MeatSauce, having no idea what parents are actually like.  Wrong, MeatSauce.  Wrong.  Good teachers who have done nothing egregious get sued all the time by parents who think their shithead kids can do no wrong and that anything that displeases their child must be the teacher's fault.  Without unions, who's going to protect the teacher in such a case?  How will a teacher that makes under $40K/year hire a decent lawyer to fight unjust charges?

Unions aren't perfect by any means, but they're pretty rough ridin' necessary in cases like that.

Of course the originally intended function of a union was to protect workers, but they are now PACs. This is now their main function along with holding municipalities hostage during contract negotiations. You never hear of teacher's unions threaten a strike because they are not happy with the curriculum forced upon them by the federal government, it is always about pay and benefits.

Offline 06wildcat

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Re: Year Round School
« Reply #63 on: May 11, 2011, 02:51:35 PM »
Some NEA's(not sure if KS is doing this or not) provides options for bene's that your district may not.  Also, they cover you legally if you get sued by parents(at least that is what I understand).  

Not sure there is much else there in KS.


This.  And this is why teachers' unions are important.  I know certain people (who almost always have no idea what it's actually like to be a teacher) have an ingrained hatred of teachers' unions and think they are to blame for most if not all of education's woes, but the legal protection they provide is huge.  "But totally, if you aren't a bad teacher, you won't get sued!" says MeatSauce, having no idea what parents are actually like.  Wrong, MeatSauce.  Wrong.  Good teachers who have done nothing egregious get sued all the time by parents who think their shithead kids can do no wrong and that anything that displeases their child must be the teacher's fault.  Without unions, who's going to protect the teacher in such a case?  How will a teacher that makes under $40K/year hire a decent lawyer to fight unjust charges?

Unions aren't perfect by any means, but they're pretty rough ridin' necessary in cases like that.

Of course the originally intended function of a union was to protect workers, but they are now PACs. This is now their main function along with holding municipalities hostage during contract negotiations. You never hear of teacher's unions threaten a strike because they are not happy with the curriculum forced upon them by the federal government, it is always about pay and benefits.

I don't know of any state where teachers are allowed to strike, union or otherwise.

Offline SkinnyBenny

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Re: Year Round School
« Reply #64 on: May 11, 2011, 03:07:15 PM »
Of course the originally intended function of a union was to protect workers, but they are now PACs. This is now their main function along with holding municipalities hostage during contract negotiations. You never hear of teacher's unions threaten a strike because they are not happy with the curriculum forced upon them by the federal government, it is always about pay and benefits.


So John Dougie, how many years have you taught?

 :users:


DID NOT READ most of this thread, but I agree with SkinnyBenny on whatever he says in here
:D

"walking around mhk and crying in the rain because of love lost is the absolute purest and best thing in the world.  i hope i fall in love during the next few weeks and get my heart broken and it starts raining just to experience it one last time."   --Dlew12

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Re: Year Round School
« Reply #65 on: May 11, 2011, 03:11:27 PM »
pretty sue that MO teachers went on strike last year.  almost caused school to be delayed

Offline 06wildcat

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Re: Year Round School
« Reply #66 on: May 11, 2011, 04:55:20 PM »
pretty sue that MO teachers went on strike last year.  almost caused school to be delayed

Yeah, didn't realize some states actually allow strikes for public workers. Incredibly dumb way to craft union legislation for the public sector.

Offline john "teach me how to" dougie

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Re: Year Round School
« Reply #67 on: May 11, 2011, 05:04:34 PM »
Of course the originally intended function of a union was to protect workers, but they are now PACs. This is now their main function along with holding municipalities hostage during contract negotiations. You never hear of teacher's unions threaten a strike because they are not happy with the curriculum forced upon them by the federal government, it is always about pay and benefits.


So John Dougie, how many years have you taught?

 :users:





3 years, bro; we have discussed this before.

Offline SkinnyBenny

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Re: Year Round School
« Reply #68 on: May 11, 2011, 05:11:02 PM »
My burst, I must have forgot.   :cheers:
"walking around mhk and crying in the rain because of love lost is the absolute purest and best thing in the world.  i hope i fall in love during the next few weeks and get my heart broken and it starts raining just to experience it one last time."   --Dlew12

Offline john "teach me how to" dougie

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Re: Year Round School
« Reply #69 on: May 11, 2011, 06:12:03 PM »
My burst, I must have forgot.   :cheers:

 :bong:

Offline Panjandrum

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Re: Year Round School
« Reply #70 on: May 16, 2011, 01:32:02 PM »
If you want both high pay and a quality teacher, you need to pay for a private school without a union.

Actually, private schools don't have better teachers than public schools, and they pay much worse than public schools. Students at private schools score much better on standardized tests, obviously, but that has much more to do with parents who care and the school's ability to easily expel any problem students than it does with the quality of the teachers themselves. This is why the voucher program is doomed to fail. If you give vouchers to the problem students at failing public schools, the private schools will either have to kick them out or become failing schools themselves.

Anyone who has interest in this subject needs to read "Outliers" by Malcom Gladwell.

The fact that there's a strong correlation of successful students coming from wealthy, educated families is more of a byproduct of the fact that wealthy, educated parents are more willing to talk, read, and work with their children (and genes play a factor as well) as opposed to less wealthy, educated families.  Basically, the biggest influence on a child's education is set before they're even born.  If they're born to wealthy, smart parents, the kids are more likely to do well in school, and if you're born to poor, uneducated parents, your odds of succeeding are much lower.

The educational system can have an impact, and studies have shown that a combination of year-round schooling and challenging curriculum can greatly increases a child's chances of doing well in school and going to college, but at the end of the day, you basically have to move a mountain or be fortunate enough to be a statistical minority to actually succeed in school if you were born to the wrong family.

We can throw billions of dollars at under-performing schools and teachers, disband unions, change mandatory curricula, etc. but really, the increases you'll see won't be as dramatic as people will ultimately want for that investment.  We're simply going to have to find the right balance because there is going to be a point where your ROI won't be worth it because the home lives for a lot of children aren't conducive to success.

The easiest solution to create the most rapid success would be year-round school.  That has to happen at some point.

Offline john "teach me how to" dougie

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Re: Year Round School
« Reply #71 on: May 16, 2011, 01:52:07 PM »
If you want both high pay and a quality teacher, you need to pay for a private school without a union.

Actually, private schools don't have better teachers than public schools, and they pay much worse than public schools. Students at private schools score much better on standardized tests, obviously, but that has much more to do with parents who care and the school's ability to easily expel any problem students than it does with the quality of the teachers themselves. This is why the voucher program is doomed to fail. If you give vouchers to the problem students at failing public schools, the private schools will either have to kick them out or become failing schools themselves.

Anyone who has interest in this subject needs to read "Outliers" by Malcom Gladwell.

The fact that there's a strong correlation of successful students coming from wealthy, educated families is more of a byproduct of the fact that wealthy, educated parents are more willing to talk, read, and work with their children (and genes play a factor as well) as opposed to less wealthy, educated families.  Basically, the biggest influence on a child's education is set before they're even born.  If they're born to wealthy, smart parents, the kids are more likely to do well in school, and if you're born to poor, uneducated parents, your odds of succeeding are much lower.

The educational system can have an impact, and studies have shown that a combination of year-round schooling and challenging curriculum can greatly increases a child's chances of doing well in school and going to college, but at the end of the day, you basically have to move a mountain or be fortunate enough to be a statistical minority to actually succeed in school if you were born to the wrong family.

We can throw billions of dollars at under-performing schools and teachers, disband unions, change mandatory curricula, etc. but really, the increases you'll see won't be as dramatic as people will ultimately want for that investment.  We're simply going to have to find the right balance because there is going to be a point where your ROI won't be worth it because the home lives for a lot of children aren't conducive to success.

The easiest solution to create the most rapid success would be year-round school.  That has to happen at some point.

I think we need to boil this down to the lowest common denominator and put the blame on the parents attitude rather than how much the money the parent makes. I realize class warfare is very important to many people, and perhaps the amount of money you have will affect your attitude, but it shouldn't. It always boils down to being a responsible parent, but it is usually easier to be a victim of society.

Offline SkinnyBenny

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Re: Year Round School
« Reply #72 on: May 16, 2011, 02:09:05 PM »
I think it's partly both, though I am certainly on board with a LOTTTT of parents being super shitty parents and their kids being at a disadvantage because of it.  I mean, on the way to school when I was in elementary school, my dad used to quiz us on European capitals and crazy crap like that.  Wish every parent did that.
"walking around mhk and crying in the rain because of love lost is the absolute purest and best thing in the world.  i hope i fall in love during the next few weeks and get my heart broken and it starts raining just to experience it one last time."   --Dlew12

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Re: Year Round School
« Reply #73 on: May 16, 2011, 02:10:38 PM »
Yeah, it's both.  There are plenty of mom's out there more concerned about their new boyfriend than their kids, but there are also plenty of parents out there that work two jobs and are simply not home to take care of this part of things.

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Re: Year Round School
« Reply #74 on: May 16, 2011, 03:19:33 PM »
Basically I just think people need to stop having kids they can't afford/care for and the educational problem will begin to sort itself out a little bit.  Not entirely, but it would sure make things easier.  But yeah, defund Planned Parenthood, because poor people don't need birth control pills.
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"walking around mhk and crying in the rain because of love lost is the absolute purest and best thing in the world.  i hope i fall in love during the next few weeks and get my heart broken and it starts raining just to experience it one last time."   --Dlew12