Year Round School

[Rage Against the McKee]

If you want both high pay and a quality teacher, you need to pay for a private school without a union.

Actually, private schools don't have better teachers than public schools, and they pay much worse than public schools. Students at private schools score much better on standardized tests, obviously, but that has much more to do with parents who care and the school's ability to easily expel any problem students than it does with the quality of the teachers themselves. This is why the voucher program is doomed to fail. If you give vouchers to the problem students at failing public schools, the private schools will either have to kick them out or become failing schools themselves.

[CNS]

If you want both high pay and a quality teacher, you need to pay for a private school without a union.

Actually, private schools don't have better teachers than public schools, and they pay much worse than public schools. Students at private schools score much better on standardized tests, obviously, but that has much more to do with parents who care and the school's ability to easily expel any problem students than it does with the quality of the teachers themselves. This is why the voucher program is doomed to fail. If you give vouchers to the problem students at failing public schools, the private schools will either have to kick them out or become failing schools themselves.

You also have a much higher probability of teachers "teaching to the test" rather than fully covering a subject.  Where as in pub school(at least my wifes's) there is more than one test the kids are responsible for taking and both test differently.  Makes teaching to the test difficult, even if it wasn't discouraged, which it is.

[CNS]

You are over simplifying the "need to perform/love of the work" of any job.  Again, teachers are not priests.

[john "teach me how to" dougie]

If you want both high pay and a quality teacher, you need to pay for a private school without a union.

Actually, private schools don't have better teachers than public schools, and they pay much worse than public schools. Students at private schools score much better on standardized tests, obviously, but that has much more to do with parents who care and the school's ability to easily expel any problem students than it does with the quality of the teachers themselves. This is why the voucher program is doomed to fail. If you give vouchers to the problem students at failing public schools, the private schools will either have to kick them out or become failing schools themselves.

You also have a much higher probability of teachers "teaching to the test" rather than fully covering a subject.  Where as in pub school(at least my wifes's) there is more than one test the kids are responsible for taking and both test differently.  Makes teaching to the test difficult, even if it wasn't discouraged, which it is.

This is a good reason to get the federal government out of the business of teaching. No child left behind is a huge failure. Education should be kept at the city or county level with some state oversight.

[06wildcat]

Depends on what you consider reasonable. I don't like the idea that there can be a cap on gross incompetence/negligence. That being said, serious health care reform has to go well beyond just tort reform and it's most likely not going to include a private sector solution, at least not as the private sector is organized today.

But back to teaching, people tout private/charter schools as having higher attainment rates, and they do. But they also have things like better funding, more involved parents and a host of other things that aren't accounted for.

NPR recently had Diane Ravitch on (here's the link http://www.npr.org/2011/04/28/135142895/ravitch-standardized-testing-undermines-teaching ) talking about this. Finding causality in education is very, very difficult. Better pay to attract better teachers would help. More involved parents would help more, provided they're involved in the right way.

[CNS]

If you want both high pay and a quality teacher, you need to pay for a private school without a union.

Actually, private schools don't have better teachers than public schools, and they pay much worse than public schools. Students at private schools score much better on standardized tests, obviously, but that has much more to do with parents who care and the school's ability to easily expel any problem students than it does with the quality of the teachers themselves. This is why the voucher program is doomed to fail. If you give vouchers to the problem students at failing public schools, the private schools will either have to kick them out or become failing schools themselves.

You also have a much higher probability of teachers "teaching to the test" rather than fully covering a subject.  Where as in pub school(at least my wifes's) there is more than one test the kids are responsible for taking and both test differently.  Makes teaching to the test difficult, even if it wasn't discouraged, which it is.

This is a good reason to get the federal government out of the business of teaching. No child left behind is a huge failure. Education should be kept at the city or county level with some state oversight.

State should be the responsible party.  Fed should be booted out.

[john "teach me how to" dougie]

You are over simplifying the "need to perform/love of the work" of any job.  Again, teachers are not priests.

Agreed. There needs to be a "happy medium" for both the employer and employee.

[Rage Against the McKee]

Personally, I think there should be trade schools for students who aren't going to college and have finished their sophomore year of high school. High school for juniors and seniors should be for college bound students only. All schools should be year round.

[OK_Cat]

school year round is a terrible idea from a financial standpoint.  Districts already don't have any money....now you'd be asking them to keep schools open during the summer months, where electric bills will skyrocket due to the summer heat.

[WildCatzPhreak]

Interesting link - it lets you check the salary of teachers and other district employees in the state of Kansas.  (Not all districts are available yet.)

http://www.kansasopengov.org/SchoolDistricts/PayrollListing/tabid/1592/Default.aspx

[Trim]

I think Alice Cooper said it best when he said "school's out for summer".

[john "teach me how to" dougie]

Personally, I think there should be trade schools for students who aren't going to college and have finished their sophomore year of high school. High school for juniors and seniors should be for college bound students only. All schools should be year round.

Not a bad idea.

[WildCatzPhreak]

fwiw, none of my teachers were underpaid.  if anything, some of those bastards were overpaid.  my Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) hs english teacher makes 65k.  he has no grad degree and only has to work 9 months a year, and the cost of benefits aren't included in that number.

[Rage Against the McKee]

fwiw, none of my teachers were underpaid.  if anything, some of those bastards were overpaid.  my Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) hs english teacher makes 65k.  he has no grad degree and only has to work 9 months a year, and the cost of benefits aren't included in that number.

How old is he?

[WildCatzPhreak]

fwiw, none of my teachers were underpaid.  if anything, some of those bastards were overpaid.  my Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) hs english teacher makes 65k.  he has no grad degree and only has to work 9 months a year, and the cost of benefits aren't included in that number.

How old is he?

low 30's

[Rage Against the McKee]

school year round is a terrible idea from a financial standpoint.  Districts already don't have any money....now you'd be asking them to keep schools open during the summer months, where electric bills will skyrocket due to the summer heat.

This is true. It would cost more to go year round.

[OK_Cat]

Interesting link - it lets you check the salary of teachers and other district employees in the state of Kansas.  (Not all districts are available yet.)

http://www.kansasopengov.org/SchoolDistricts/PayrollListing/tabid/1592/Default.aspx

wow, kinda interesting in a stalker-ish way.  my mom makes more money than i thought she did. 

[wetwillie]

I sampled the Hutchinson link and found several elementary teachers in the 19k-22k range.  Student loan debt would start to look terrifying making that.

[WildCatzPhreak]

I sampled the Hutchinson link and found several elementary teachers in the 19k-22k range.  Student loan debt would start to look terrifying making that.

hutch teachers probably are underpaid.  several at shawnee mission are way the eff overpaid.

[john "teach me how to" dougie]

school year round is a terrible idea from a financial standpoint.  Districts already don't have any money....now you'd be asking them to keep schools open during the summer months, where electric bills will skyrocket due to the summer heat.

It wouldn't surprise me to find they keep many schools air-conditioned in over the summer.

[MeatSauce]

Good topic. Been debated for yrs. Was gaining popularity in the early 90's  when money was flowing Districts had a 194 day contract with teachers and kids were in session for 186 days. At that time the feeling was we could possibly end up around 220 days. Obviously that didn't happen.

I have always been intrigued with the idea of year round school with one, two, and three week breaks scheduled in. A big issue is the UNION. Unless a big pot of money is associated with this the NEA would fight to the end against it.

**A/C shutoff b/c of summer? please. those things run non-stop without school being in session anyways.

[CNS]

school year round is a terrible idea from a financial standpoint.  Districts already don't have any money....now you'd be asking them to keep schools open during the summer months, where electric bills will skyrocket due to the summer heat.

It wouldn't surprise me to find they keep many schools air-conditioned in over the summer.

They have to, otherwise you end up with other major maintenance nightmares.  That said, they do so at a much lesser level than what is needed when you have 500+ heat producing people in your building.  Not only do people create heat, but they prefer the ambient temp to be at a lower level than what the facility needs to maintain it's integrity.  In other words, you can let a facility cool it's self to 80degrees during July rather than 74 degrees, and yes 6 degrees is a huge financial difference in a facility the size of a school.

Also, you can cut your maintenence staff hours during the off season.  Not as many trash cans to empty, bathrooms to clean as often, etc.  There is a lot of cost savings in facilities in the summer, or any time off for that matter.

That said, the year round plan I have seen was one that would have allowed for the same amt of time off, just at more frequent intervals for shorter durations.

If you are dealing with a annual budget, it would come close to equaling out in the end.

[CNS]

Good topic. Been debated for yrs. Was gaining popularity in the early 90's  when money was flowing Districts had a 194 day contract with teachers and kids were in session for 186 days. At that time the feeling was we could possibly end up around 220 days. Obviously that didn't happen.

I have always been intrigued with the idea of year round school with one, two, and three week breaks scheduled in. A big issue is the UNION. Unless a big pot of money is associated with this the NEA would fight to the end against it.

**A/C shutoff b/c of summer? please. those things run non-stop without school being in session anyways.

Correct me if I am wrong, but NEA isn't a union everywhere.  They act as a professional organization in Kansas, for instance, but have no bargaining power.  My wife isn't a member of NEA.  NEA has no say in bargaining her contract.  It is all handled by the teachers.   The NEA had no say what so ever in my wife's district possibly going year round a few years ago.  Kansas isn't MO.  The teachers have much less power here than across state line.

[06wildcat]

Depends on the district, CNS. Some districts in Kansas have enough NEA members that the organization does help with bargaining.

[SkinnyBenny]

**A/C shutoff b/c of summer? please. those things run non-stop without school being in session anyways.

wrong