Author Topic: Holy War  (Read 163563 times)

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Online DQ12

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #525 on: April 11, 2011, 01:58:28 AM »
I really, really, really don't understand how anyone with a functioning brain can really believe in "God" unless they really have a fear of death.  That's the only explanation I can come up with.

I said the same thing when I was an atheist. There are plenty of people who are smarter than anyone on this board (which is saying something) who believe in God, and there are plenty of people who are smarter than anyone on this board who do not believe in God.

The smartest person I know, a math professor at K-State, claims to be agnostic. We've talked about creationism vs. evolution a lot, and he always says "it is stupid to call either side stupid. There is plenty of evidence for both sides that cannot be disproven by the other side, and to not acknowledge that is ignorant."

I think there is enough evidence for both sides that people can choose to believe whatever they want and be able to justify it to themselves.

Yep.  I subscribe to this but have never been able to verbalize quite this well.


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Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #526 on: April 11, 2011, 08:19:32 AM »
It's my hope, that before I die, we live in a world that's essentially disproven God.  I doubt that I'll see it, but it would give me hope for our species if we can break from our ancient mysticism and actually start tapping into human potential.

It's not possible to disprove the existence of a God who exists outside the realm of our universe. Also, it's sort of an odd thing to wish for. If God was actually disproven, I don't think I would want to be around to witness the fallout.

Offline Panjandrum

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #527 on: April 11, 2011, 08:22:30 AM »
It's my hope, that before I die, we live in a world that's essentially disproven God.  I doubt that I'll see it, but it would give me hope for our species if we can break from our ancient mysticism and actually start tapping into human potential.

It's not possible to disprove the existence of a God who exists outside the realm of our universe. Also, it's sort of an odd thing to wish for. If God was actually disproven, I don't think I would want to be around to witness the fallout.

It's gotta happen at some point.   :dunno:

And the first sentence proves the points I've been making in the last few posts.

Offline pike

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #528 on: April 11, 2011, 08:26:20 AM »
It's my hope, that before I die, we live in a world that's essentially disproven God.  I doubt that I'll see it, but it would give me hope for our species if we can break from our ancient mysticism and actually start tapping into human potential.

It's not possible to disprove the existence of a God who exists outside the realm of our universe. Also, it's sort of an odd thing to wish for. If God was actually disproven, I don't think I would want to be around to witness the fallout.

I think people will slowly start to come to their senses about religion. I'd be willing to bet there has been a steady increase in atheism over the last century, but won't look it up now since I have to work. In other words, it's more of a desensitization over a long time and hopefully that wouldn't lead to a global riot as you're implying. Hope not anyway.

Offline Panjandrum

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #529 on: April 11, 2011, 08:41:32 AM »
If you were absolutely confident about your thought processes and beliefs, you wouldn't be getting so upset about someone putting a counter argument forward.

I'm not upset, and the watchmaker is not an argument.  It's just bullcac.

This proves it!  :horrorsurprise:

The watchmaker is a horrible argument because anything can be the watchmaker.  It can be God, Joe, magical leprechauns, or whatever.

People believe that the universe is so intricate that it required a designer.  Well, considering that we explain more and more of these intricacies with natural phenomena every day, it gets weaker and weaker all of the time.  That doesn't even take into consideration that people believe the watchmaker is THEIR deity as opposed to someone else's.  It may not be your Abrahamic god, but it could be the Hindu Gods, Ahura Mazda, Quetzalcoatl, Gaia and Uranus, etc.

The watchmaker is stupid because A) there is no way of telling who it could have been (negating the support for your particular belief structure), and B) because we're finding more and more plausible ways for us to explain how the watch got there in the first place.

This doesn't even begin to get into the fact that there were probably a ton of intermediary steps between now and how the watch got there in the first place, but for those who believe in religion, you're hard wired to believe that there was a cause and effect of God/Earth, God/Watch.  You're skipping out on a whole story there where the watch was dropped by someone hiking in the woods, and that person received their watch from their uncle Dave, and he bought it from a jeweler in some other place, etc.  Just because you don't know the previous chapter in the story doesn't mean that it didn't exist and the watch randomly formed by itself or was created by a God.

And then, to assume that the Earth is so intricate that it's like a watch is kind of dumb in and of itself.  We literally have billions and trillions of examples of planets out there that show that these things randomly form all over the place.  Just because the universe is so large and we can't "find" anyone else out there doesn't mean there isn't.

I could go on and on, but the watchmaker is something you hear in most basic philosophy 101 classes that's picked apart and destroyed as bad logic.

Offline Dirty Sanchez

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #530 on: April 11, 2011, 11:13:29 AM »
You're proving my point, you know. :users:

Offline CHONGS

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #531 on: April 11, 2011, 11:44:25 AM »
:facepalm:

Offline Panjandrum

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #532 on: April 11, 2011, 12:49:14 PM »
You're proving my point, you know. :users:

I'm really not.  You're proving mine.

Offline Saulbadguy

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #533 on: April 11, 2011, 12:52:24 PM »
wut
Where did you get that overnight bag?

Offline Trim

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #534 on: April 11, 2011, 12:53:50 PM »
I'll reserve judgment until I see how much God donates.

Offline WillieWatanabe

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #535 on: April 11, 2011, 12:59:12 PM »
can we just lock this thread already?
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Offline LickNeckey

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #536 on: April 11, 2011, 01:13:32 PM »
Atheism, Agnosticism, Non-Believer is now the third largest belief system

Offline pike

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #537 on: April 11, 2011, 01:18:55 PM »
religious nuts from 1000 years ago would want to lock this thread.Religion is not debateable, keep the knowledge from the people, promote ignorance.

Back to the dark ages!

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #538 on: April 11, 2011, 01:21:51 PM »
religious nuts from 1000 years ago would want to lock this thread.Religion is not debateable, keep the knowledge from the people, promote ignorance.

Back to the dark ages!

Yeah, well 1000 years ago, Catholicism was very similar to radical Islam.

Offline Dirty Sanchez

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #539 on: April 11, 2011, 01:38:17 PM »
You're proving my point, you know. :users:

I'm really not.  You're proving mine.

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Offline KSU187

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #540 on: April 11, 2011, 02:00:38 PM »
First off, The "watchmaker" argument ---->  :flush:  Okay, anyways...

Quote
religious nuts from 1000 years ago would want to lock this thread.Religion is not debateable, keep the knowledge from the people, promote ignorance.

Quote
Yeah, well 1000 years ago, Catholicism was very similar to radical Islam.

It is easy to be critical about religion keeping people ignorant, committing atrocities, propagating superstition, and manipulating the masses.  Every single one of these things has happened.

However, that says nothing about whether or whether not God exists.  Religion is an entirely human creation, acting as an intermediary between Deity and man.  Subjective experiences with God can lead to all sorts of crazy interpretations, philosophies, dogmas, and actions. 

But deep down in the human heart, there is a Desire to commune with the Infinite.  It is innate, whether or whether or not you think it is.  How can it be innate? There are tons of people who don't believe.  Even the atheist and the agnostic have at least asked themselves these important questions about God and Life, and have come to their own conclusion.

Some forms of religion promote ignorance. However, others including even Catholicism, ask their practitioners to go deeper in to Reality and experience it on a non-materialistic, an intuitive, inner, supernatural level.

Religion has been around since man first made cave drawings or tried to worship the sky, stars, animals or plants.  We are the only primates, and animals on the planet, capable of thinking abstractly.  Why hold in condemnation another's abstraction, or their Reality as they see it? Don't you have one yourself which you cling to?

The Catholic Church has accumulated some huge karmic challenges over its storied and controversial history, but I have confidence these things will work themselves out.  From my personal experience, I have worked with Catholic Charities on the front lines of homelessness, drug and alcohol addiction, crime, and prostitution infested areas.  To describe the work they do as commendable, inspirational, and unselfishly Loving would not do justice to these wonderful souls.

If taking shots at them makes you feel better, go ahead, they can take it.

But I must ask.. What are you doing for your fellow man, righteously indignant secular humanist?

As much as you want to intellectualize your patchwork materialistic morality, as a whole, you fall incredibly short of the religious.

Sure, you can claim religion "has done more harm," but if you want to blind yourself to its good, then perhaps you are the one steeped in "ignorance."   
« Last Edit: April 11, 2011, 02:02:23 PM by KSU187 »

Offline ArchE_Cat

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #541 on: April 12, 2011, 07:47:07 AM »
Anyone wanting either God or science to be completely done away with is either extremely driven by their world view or not well educated on those matters, or both.

Offline Panjandrum

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #542 on: April 12, 2011, 08:59:26 AM »
Anyone wanting either God or science to be completely done away with is either extremely driven by their world view or not well educated on those matters, or both.

I've taken a lot of time to study all kinds of mythology and mysticism (it's a hobby of mine).  But I judge it on what it is: mythology.

So, if that makes me driven in my world view, fine.  So be it.  I consider it to be more of ripping the band aid off quickly as opposed to dragging it out, but you can view it however you so choose.

Offline wetwillie

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #543 on: April 12, 2011, 10:22:31 AM »
really surprised how many people are going to the mat over this topic in a message board
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Offline the KHAN!

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #544 on: April 12, 2011, 11:20:11 AM »
Anyone wanting either God or science to be completely done away with is either extremely driven by their world view or not well educated on those matters, or both.

I've taken a lot of time to study all kinds of mythology and mysticism (it's a hobby of mine).  But I judge it on what it is: mythology.

So, if that makes me driven in my world view, fine.  So be it.  I consider it to be more of ripping the band aid off quickly as opposed to dragging it out, but you can view it however you so choose.

So it is your opinion that religion should be done away with completely?
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Offline Panjandrum

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #545 on: April 12, 2011, 11:51:45 AM »
Anyone wanting either God or science to be completely done away with is either extremely driven by their world view or not well educated on those matters, or both.

I've taken a lot of time to study all kinds of mythology and mysticism (it's a hobby of mine).  But I judge it on what it is: mythology.

So, if that makes me driven in my world view, fine.  So be it.  I consider it to be more of ripping the band aid off quickly as opposed to dragging it out, but you can view it however you so choose.

So it is your opinion that religion should be done away with completely?

Yes, I wish for that.

A little, extreme, I know, but it's how I feel, right or wrong.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2011, 11:53:29 AM by Panjandrum »

Offline Dirty Sanchez

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #546 on: April 12, 2011, 01:42:10 PM »
Must be a sad life to think of oneself as nothing more than a machine limited simply to chemical and physical machinations responding only to base stimuli.  In that case, life if completely preordained as one stimulation will always lead to a result.  No point to anything.

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #547 on: April 12, 2011, 01:56:36 PM »
Must be a sad life to think of oneself as nothing more than a machine limited simply to chemical and physical machinations responding only to base stimuli.  In that case, life if completely preordained as one stimulation will always lead to a result.  No point to anything.

It is possible to absolutely love the beauty of life (which includes people being nice and stuff) without believing in a god.

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #548 on: April 12, 2011, 02:05:32 PM »
Another example of why to hate organized relig:

Family friend has a family member who is gay and getting married.  Entire side of the family has openly said that they will not participate in the wedding or this person's life anymore.  This person's grandmother wrote her hate mail.  Like, long, detailed, drawn out hate mail.

Imagine that.  Growing up in a loving, what you thought to be, decent family.  Declaring what you are and being left alone simply because of your sexual orientation. 

If you are a parent, do you think you could do this to your kid?  Could you imagine your grandmother sending you a hate mail send off letter and you parents doing nothing?

These people's religion has made them destroy/turn against the most pure thing there is in life, their relationship with their child.

Here is a thought for those that believe in organized relig:  Maybe you are caught up in your devil's snare.  Maybe your devil has created organized relig to separate, segragate, and increase hatred.  Seems like it does as much of this as anything else.

The above example is the second time in the last year that someone my family is close with has experience this.  I imagine it is not all that uncommon.

I honestly cannot imagine a situation that is more sad and more brutal on a human level. 

Org religion rough ridin' disgusts me.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #549 on: April 12, 2011, 02:10:48 PM »
Another example of why to hate organized relig:

Family friend has a family member who is gay and getting married.  Entire side of the family has openly said that they will not participate in the wedding or this person's life anymore.  This person's grandmother wrote her hate mail.  Like, long, detailed, drawn out hate mail.

Imagine that.  Growing up in a loving, what you thought to be, decent family.  Declaring what you are and being left alone simply because of your sexual orientation. 

If you are a parent, do you think you could do this to your kid?  Could you imagine your grandmother sending you a hate mail send off letter and you parents doing nothing?

These people's religion has made them destroy/turn against the most pure thing there is in life, their relationship with their child.

Here is a thought for those that believe in organized relig:  Maybe you are caught up in your devil's snare.  Maybe your devil has created organized relig to separate, segragate, and increase hatred.  Seems like it does as much of this as anything else.

The above example is the second time in the last year that someone my family is close with has experience this.  I imagine it is not all that uncommon.

I honestly cannot imagine a situation that is more sad and more brutal on a human level. 

Org religion rough ridin' disgusts me.

You don't have to be religious to be homophobic/racist.